Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Well my band plays for crowds outdoors with more than 500 people a few times a year using all active cabs with no problems. I would also venture to guess that my PA weighs less than your outdated gear probably sounds better too. well, you are guessing, which you are welcome to do. Passive stuff isn't necessarily outdated. They still make and use it, even at the top levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Well you would have to do alot of digging because I have never seen an active version of a comparable cab weighing 15 pounds more IIRC. my digging consisted of the first cab that came to mind since so many folks here use it. And yes, the difference did surprise me a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead Powered = less to plug in? Are your speakers wireless? I find the complaints about having to run power to each active cab to be overstated. Everything is different for each band, of course, but most stage setups usually involve dropping power near where every monitor would be anyway. Who isn't running some sort of effects pedal or other electronic device near where their monitor would be these days? The extra time to snap in a power cable in minimal and, in my experience, is more than outweighed by the hassle of dealing with a rack of amps and crossovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Well I stand corrected. I still say that much weight difference isn't the norm. Where I live no one uses Yorkville. I have seen one sub in my entire life and it was a Yorkville Pulse that pretty much sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead for small, simple setups they are great, especially in situations where the users aren't too sound-savvy and don't really have any interest in becoming so.There are certainly many situations where I would recommend a powered setup over passive. And I think this is the sort of setup we're talking about for at least 90% of the musicians/bands hanging out here. For all but all the most sound-savvy and/or those using specialized setups for specialized situations, I just really can't think of reason to recommend passives over actives. I think the main reason a lot of bands use passives is because they've piece-by-pieced their way into their systems in the first place rather than making sure everything was perfectly matched. Which is one reason why actives are going to be less-prone to failure for such bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Well I stand corrected. I still say that much weight difference isn't the norm. Where I live no one uses Yorkville. I have seen one sub in my entire life and it was a Yorkville Pulse that pretty much sucked. well, I looked at Carvin's site and their single 18" cab is about 9lbs heavier for the powered versions. And their high-end line, TRx, they only make in passive. Also looked at C-V's 18" sub and there is about a 30lb weight gain for the power amp, unless it is a misprint. But I've held a number of different amp modules from popular cabs and they all weight something, at least noticeably more than 2-3lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 And I think this is the sort of setup we're talking about for at least 90% of the musicians/bands hanging out here. For all but all the most sound-savvy and/or those using specialized setups for specialized situations, I just really can't think of reason to recommend passives over actives. I think the main reason a lot of bands use passives is because they've piece-by-pieced their way into their systems in the first place rather than making sure everything was perfectly matched. Which is one reason why actives are going to be less-prone to failure for such bands. Well, certainly that can be a detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead just looked up one of the more popular small/mid sized subs here, the Yorkie 800 line. The listed weight of the active version is about 21lbs higher. What does the comparable separate amp weigh? Going back to "common sense", the separate amp/speaker/crossover combo would weigh more because the active version would just contain the amp and crossover components without the metal cases the separate ones are built into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead Well, certainly that can be a detriment. It's the one I've seen here expressed most often. Most bands aren't in the position to shell out all the money all at once for a full active system, so they look to buy an amp now and some speakers later. And then often look for reasons to justify why such a system is 'better' while they are at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead for small, simple setups they are great, especially in situations where the users aren't too sound-savvy and don't really have any interest in becoming so.There are certainly many situations where I would recommend a powered setup over passive. Most bands tend to use what I call a smaller systems. I dont consider a couple mains and a couple subs and three or 4 monitors a big system. Big systems are what you see on full blown festival and concert stages like you would see big major label acts. If you are a band that loads in your own gear and plays pvt events and clubs , its pretty hard to beat powered PA gear unless you have a good deal already invested in a passive system. Its real nice to have the amps matched to the speakers by audio rocket scientists at the factory instead of having to do a do it yourself deal where things may not be ideal. You can get the job doen with either. Starting from scratch , its hard to beat powered gear for a band that handled their own PA and gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead well, I looked at Carvin's site and their single 18" cab is about 9lbs heavier for the powered versions. And their high-end line, TRx, they only make in passive. Also looked at C-V's 18" sub and there is about a 30lb weight gain for the power amp, unless it is a misprint. But I've held a number of different amp modules from popular cabs and they all weight something, at least noticeably more than 2-3lbs. Not sure what the amp modules weigh but since the powered versions don't have a passive crossover built in they are probably saving some weight there. My shuttle 3.0 bass amp weighs a total of 2.75 pounds. I would guess the power supply is about half that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 It's the one I've seen here expressed most often. Most bands aren't in the position to shell out all the money all at once for a full active system, so they look to buy an amp now and some speakers later. And then often look for reasons to justify why such a system is 'better' while they are at it. OTOH, they assume that since everything is properly matched and fool proof with a matched powered setup, there is nothing to do but hook it up and play thru it. If they have no interest in learning much about sound, that's great. But powered cab's don't do anything for funky rooms or major crowd changes, or a certain frequency taking off on the kick or toms, etc. For the ones using very basic mixer->powered speaker setups, do they have no EQ'ing available for the drums, no reverb for the snare or possibly toms, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Not sure what the amp modules weigh but since the powered versions don't have a passive crossover built in they are probably saving some weight there. My shuttle 3.0 bass amp weighs a total of 2.75 pounds. I would guess the power supply is about half that. true but a coil and a couple caps and resisters doesn't weigh much. Maybe 1lb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS Most bands tend to use what I call a smaller systems. I dont consider a couple mains and a couple subs and three or 4 monitors a big system. Big systems are what you see on full blown festival and concert stages like you would see big major label acts. If you are a band that loads in your own gear and plays pvt events and clubs , its pretty hard to beat powered PA gear unless you have a good deal already invested in a passive system. Its real nice to have the amps matched to the speakers by audio rocket scientists at the factory instead of having to do a do it yourself deal where things may not be ideal. You can get the job doen with either. Starting from scratch , its hard to beat powered gear for a band that handled their own PA and gear. dealing with breakdowns sure is easier with passive setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead OTOH, they assume that since everything is properly matched and fool proof with a matched powered setup, there is nothing to do but hook it up and play thru it. If they have no interest in learning much about sound, that's great. But powered cab's don't do anything for funky rooms or major crowd changes, or a certain frequency taking off on the kick or toms, etc. For the ones using very basic mixer->powered speaker setups, do they have no EQ'ing available for the drums, no reverb for the snare or possibly toms, etc? No more or less than they have with a comparable passive system. If you want to put an EQ in the system, it's the same either way, right? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead OTOH, they assume that since everything is properly matched and fool proof with a matched powered setup, there is nothing to do but hook it up and play thru it. If they have no interest in learning much about sound, that's great. But powered cab's don't do anything for funky rooms or major crowd changes, or a certain frequency taking off on the kick or toms, etc. For the ones using very basic mixer->powered speaker setups, do they have no EQ'ing available for the drums, no reverb for the snare or possibly toms, etc? Well only an idiot would not have some form of system EQ other than a channel strip. With modern technology gear is getting lighter and smaller. I recently got rid of my older mixers and now use either a presonus 16.4.2 or 16.0.2. Built in graphic EQs,compression, effects etc. As I get older the less heavy crap I have to move the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead dealing with breakdowns sure is easier with passive setups. Not really. What sort of breakdowns are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead dealing with breakdowns sure is easier with passive setups. So if some band with only one power amp or powered mixer has it fail the would be better off than having a powered speaker go out. You could still limp through the gig with one powered speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead dealing with breakdowns sure is easier with passive setups. Its all heavy when you get over 60 and have had shoulder surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 No more or less than they have with a comparable passive system. If you want to put an EQ in the system, it's the same either way, right? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I'm talking about using the tool to do the necessary things. That comes with knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS Its all heavy when you get over 60 and have had shoulder surgery. certainly is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman So if some band with only one power amp or powered mixer has it fail the would be better off than having a powered speaker go out. You could still limp through the gig with one powered speaker. well yeah, I guess, but you're asking for problems then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Not really. What sort of breakdowns are you talking about? mostly the poweramp nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I'm talking about using the tool to do the necessary things. That comes with knowledge. Well sure. But if you need an EQ--or any other piece of outboard gear--- and need to learn to use it, that's the same regardless of whether your system is active or passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Well sure. But if you need an EQ--or any other piece of outboard gear--- and need to learn to use it, that's the same regardless of whether your system is active or passive. Yes, I'm speaking about the assumption that constantly gets made that everything is perfectly matched together in a powered system, therefore you just flip the switches and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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