Any advice for those who aren't into subwoofers?

[cappttenron]

I thought the fender bassman was a 4x10? did they make a 2x15?

[agedhorse]

I thought the fender bassman was a 4x10? did they make a 2x15?

 

 

Yes. Also made it loaded with JBL D-140's (F)

[Axisplayer]

and it was 50 watts after they got past the '59 Bassman style. Bassman 100's were much later.

[WynnD]

Acopella vocal shows, also probably (aside from a couple notable exceptions)

 

 

Can't think of a single acapella show that needs subs. Human voice doesn't go that low. For that matter, as a bassist, I don't need bass cabinets that go that low either. I've got a 5 string, but rarely go lower than the E. Subs can easily become 40% of your PA system cost. Very little return for some pretty big bucks. Do I like them? Yes, but not the way they're used most of the time. (Just because nearly everyone does it, doesn't make it right or even good.) (And for anyone who want's to argue about bass cabinets with me, note that most bass cabinets go down low enough for people who don't over emphasis the extreme bass. Like me.)

[Axisplayer]

And just because YOU don't see the need for them doesn't make it right, or even good. The return is huge around here, as in: if you don't use subs you will NEVER be hired again by the band, the club, or anyone looking for a PA that happens to hear your system. They are not optional, in any way shape or form for anyone I have EVER worked with-NOT ONE CLIENT unless no music is involved. You may as well show up with no console.

 

But saying this every time you tell people how much you don't need them is just beating my head against the wall. You don't get it. You won't ever get it. By now, even my dog gets it, but not you. We got it, YOU don't NEED subs.

[allexcosta]

Subs can easily become 40% of your PA system cost. Very little return for some pretty big bucks.

 

 

Subs cost pretty much same as tops, nowadays NOBODY mics kick without having subs. Or do you think mic'ing the kick is a waste as well?

[Unalaska]

Need and Want are 2 different things. You don't NEED subs, you do NEED go full range tops and without subs I'd say really really good tops (if you mic everything). Truth is you'll never get kick and bass guitar to stand out with balls not using them, them being decent quality boxes, powered correctly and mixed well. All 3 of those things are never a given in any random band.

Are there times I don't use them? Sure, when I play a vocal only PA in a room that holds 50. The kick doesn't really have the lowest octave acoutically unless you're right in line with it but that's fine, we can all hear it for what it needs to be. The bass amp may or may not be a little louder. No guitars or keys to be added, vocal only. No subs. works great and since those gigs usually don't pay a whole lot then waay cool.

[WynnD]

So, you're a 4 string player that bought a 5 string bass?

 

 

Everybody who started playing bass in the early 70s was a 4 string player for some time.

 

Its about time we stopped trying to pigeon hole everything into "the right" categories and accept that different approaches to the same problems can have many successful results. If there were only one way to do sound, we'd all own exactly the same equipment and run it exactly the same way. (Boring. And the resultant music would likely be boring too.)

[tlbonehead]

And just because YOU don't see the need for them doesn't make it right, or even good. The return is huge around here, as in: if you don't use subs you will NEVER be hired again by the band, the club, or anyone looking for a PA that happens to hear your system. They are not optional, in any way shape or form for anyone I have EVER worked with-NOT ONE CLIENT unless no music is involved. You may as well show up with no console. But saying this every time you tell people how much you don't need them is just beating my head against the wall. You don't get it. You won't ever get it. By now, even my dog gets it, but not you. We got it, YOU don't NEED subs.

ain't that the truth!

[cappttenron]

I think people forget that in the sixties and seventies not many groups playing in large/concert size venues had subs.

Did they all suck NOOOOO

Do I like subs YEEESSSS.

I think back then the PA mainly was there to bring up the vocals to compete with the backline. Back then everyone had as powerful a guitar cabinet and bass cabinet as they could afford. Think Marshall stacks and 8x10 bass cabs. Now people are using PODs and in ear monitors.

That being said I see bands playing all the time playing without subs in bars.
Now in larger places with a real soundman seldom without subs. Personally I think in small places when people use subs they can get carried away sometimes and its so loud it drives the customers out.

I guess where some of you guys live the average room is much larger than here in northern VA. Most of the places close to me would be packed with 75 people. Most of the places that accomodate 300 plus people have their own nice systems with subs for the most part.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Everybody who started playing bass in the early 70s was a 4 string player for some time. Its about time we stopped trying to pigeon hole everything into "the right" categories and accept that different approaches to the same problems can have many successful results. If there were only one way to do sound, we'd all own exactly the same equipment and run it exactly the same way. (Boring. And the resultant music would likely be boring too.)

 

 

 

Where some have an issue is that your posts come across as projecting your belifes on others instead of addressing the OP's issue from the standpoint of what's best for him and his situation. You want every gig to be quiet and lacking bass response. And while that works for you, it won't work for the majority, and it's doubtful that it would be successful for a high school audience.

 

I don't see where anyone is claiming that there's only one system or way to run it, except possibly you...you've previously professed to walking out on any show that's loud or has bass you can feel as well as hear.

 

I'm not attacking your opinion, only trying to point out that there appears to be a "pot calling the kettle 'black'" thing here...you're professing that there are many way of doing things, but only supporting one of them.

 

FWIW, the human voice is capable of easily ranging into subwoofer territory (60hz), and a capella groups attract basso profundo's.

[WynnD]

My band has a gig tomorrow night for a group of about 100 high schools students. The keyboardist decided on our PA system layout for the event and didn't include a subwoofer. Our band members are in their mid to late fifties and didn't cut their teeth on a heavy subwoofer sound. Though it's evident to me that the subwoofer plays a very critical role in contemporary sound systems, I'm a bit frustrated trying to convince a couple of band members. Do any of you soundmen have a word of advice for our band? Much thanks!

 

 

Directly reiterating my position as it applies to the original question. Subwoofers aren't necessary for every gig. (My band gets lots of praise for its sound, whether we use subs or not. And we sometimes use subs.) Just because there is a teenager driving around with 2000 watts of sound system and 20 subs in their car, doesn't mean that every teenager is looking to hear that type of sound everywhere. (Not that I would consider that a good sound as it rattles the body panels of my car.)

 

There was a reason your band is doing this job. Don't change just for it. If you normally use subs and the room isn't an echo chamber, then continue. If the room is an echo chamber, consider shutting the subs off to improve the quality of sound. You did mention that there were only going to be 100 kids there. That doesn't require huge amount of sound output.

 

I'm sure that there will be more problems caused by worrying about the lack of subs than there could be from not using them. From a band dynamics standpoint, it might be better to bring them and set them up, than to argue or stress out about it. Bringing them shouldn't hurt your sound. Using them in a new way based upon perceived audience expectations might hurt your sound. This isn't a time to change your sound. If they wanted a different band, they would have gotten a different band.

[georgestrings]

honestly, some of the stuff you come up with........

+1... when I read some of Wynn's posts, the image of an old fart yelling "turn it down" often comes to mind...



- georgestrings

[georgestrings]

And just because YOU don't see the need for them doesn't make it right, or even good. The return is huge around here, as in: if you don't use subs you will NEVER be hired again by the band, the club, or anyone looking for a PA that happens to hear your system. They are not optional, in any way shape or form for anyone I have EVER worked with-NOT ONE CLIENT unless no music is involved. You may as well show up with no console. But saying this every time you tell people how much you don't need them is just beating my head against the wall. You don't get it. You won't ever get it. By now, even my dog gets it, but not you. We got it, YOU don't NEED subs.

 

 

 

 

Well said...

 

 

 

- georgestrings

[WynnD]

One thing that isn't talked about by sub proponents is the level of coverage in those frequencies by normal full range PA speakers. Was just looking at the specs for the Altec Lansing A7 speaker. No one would consider it a sub, but the low frequency cut off for that two way was 47 htz. (+- 10 db) with a 3 db roll off at 57 htz. Checking the 15" Eon JBLs specs has a similar result. Apparently not having dedicated speakers in that frequency range does not result in no coverage in that frequency range. (My subs have 15" drivers and I hpf them at 50 htz.) My small club mains have 2-15" and a horn in each cabinet bi-amped. It's about 500 real watts to the audience. Might be that not having dedicated subs is resulting in the same frequency coverage. (At least close.) If subs don't help, and they don't seem to do much except the kick in my band, (from watching the meters on the crossover) maybe you don't need them as much as sub proponents want you to believe. (Because you already have some coverage.)

[SpaceNorman]

 

If you're not happy playin' in a FOG band...

 

 

OK ... I just gotta ask ... what's a "FOG" band? Full of Geezers?

[WynnD]

Think I was about 24 when I first played in a band with someone over 60 in it. Our saxman is the oldest in this band and has been gigging longer than I've been alive. (First club gig was at 11 years old.) I'll easily admit to being an "Old Fart". But my attitudes aren't because I'm old. I've had them since I was in my early 20s. Would love to see a study correlating volume of music to bar profits. (Not really sure that would work.) Every time I've seen Blood, Sweat and Tears, and The Temptations, the sound has been excellent. Can't say the same for Deep Purple, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Little Richard even when they've been on the same bill and PA system.

 

I'd also like to know what FOG translate into.

[allexcosta]

Would love to see a study correlating volume of music to bar profits.

 

 

I didn't catch anyone talking about volume here.

A full range PA down to 40hz will give the audience a feeling of a "professional sound" that only a good sounding kick drum can do.

[tlbonehead]

One thing that isn't talked about by sub proponents is the level of coverage in those frequencies by normal full range PA speakers. Was just looking at the specs for the Altec Lansing A7 speaker. No one would consider it a sub, but the low frequency cut off for that two way was 47 htz. (+- 10 db) with a 3 db roll off at 57 htz. Checking the 15" Eon JBLs specs has a similar result. Apparently not having dedicated speakers in that frequency range does not result in no coverage in that frequency range. (My subs have 15" drivers and I hpf them at 50 htz.) My small club mains have 2-15" and a horn in each cabinet bi-amped. It's about 500 real watts to the audience. Might be that not having dedicated subs is resulting in the same frequency coverage. (At least close.) If subs don't help, and they don't seem to do much except the kick in my band, (from watching the meters on the crossover) maybe you don't need them as much as sub proponents want you to believe. (Because you already have some coverage.)

I believe I'll just give up.

[Bobby1Note]

OK ... I just gotta ask ... what's a "FOG" band? Full of Geezers?

Norm,

Given the times, I'm SURE it must mean, Fine Old Gentlemen. Whaddaya think?

[W. M. Hellinger]

As a practical matter: Without subs, where's the dance crowd gonna set their drinks down?

I always look at decisions like these, being which gear to bring to the gig, like this:

If XYZ piece of gear was already in-place at the venue, would I bother to plug it in? If the answer is yes, then whether the gear is at the venue or not is a moot point. If the answer is no, then it gets left behind.

[Axisplayer]

Without subs, what dance crowd are you actually expecting? ;-)

[W. M. Hellinger]

Without subs, what dance crowd are you actually expecting? ;-)

 

That might be one of those situations where the problem is actually the solution.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

One thing that isn't talked about by sub proponents is the level of coverage in those frequencies by normal full range PA speakers. Was just looking at the specs for the Altec Lansing A7 speaker. No one would consider it a sub, but the low frequency cut off for that two way was 47 htz. (+- 10 db) with a 3 db roll off at 57 htz. Checking the 15" Eon JBLs specs has a similar result. Apparently not having dedicated speakers in that frequency range does not result in no coverage in that frequency range. (My subs have 15" drivers and I hpf them at 50 htz.) My small club mains have 2-15" and a horn in each cabinet bi-amped. It's about 500 real watts to the audience. Might be that not having dedicated subs is resulting in the same frequency coverage. (At least close.) If subs don't help, and they don't seem to do much except the kick in my band, (from watching the meters on the crossover) maybe you don't need them as much as sub proponents want you to believe. (Because you already have some coverage.)

 

 

 

If you can "cover" the room using a 15" Eon, why not take it a step further and decide you can cover the room with a one-way system? I'm sure you can find a 15" driver that'll handle 12KHz at 10dB down.

 

Your definition of coverage is what? 85dB? Again, I'll reiterate since you didn't address my earlier post at all; you're projecting what you think is acceptable instead of helping the OP determine if HIS band's gig will be helped by using subs. Your criteria are far out of line from what is normally used in this industry. And I'm not talking about the 10% end of the bell curve that uses 2000w subs in a compact car, or crushes chests at a concert. We're talking about what works for kids, which is the OP's question.

[allexcosta]

Checking the 15" Eon JBLs specs has a similar result. Apparently not having dedicated speakers in that frequency range does not result in no coverage in that frequency range.

 

I'm enlightened!

I was thinking about getting some financing to buy a system like this but I think I'll just buy some EON's instead...