Any advice for those who aren't into subwoofers?

[DaBender]

It's tough being in the middle. My band plays without subs, and we get dancers. In addition to my blues band, every so often I play a Friday happy hour with some other guys, as I did two days ago. No subs, dance floor packed. I guess the crowd didn't get the memo.

[WynnD]

It's tough being in the middle. My band plays without subs, and we get dancers. In addition to my blues band, every so often I play a Friday happy hour with some other guys, as I did two days ago. No subs, dance floor packed. I guess the crowd didn't get the memo.

 

 

Guess we're not the only band that has a dancing crowd without subs all the time. Don't personally know about teenagers now. They're not my audience. (Could talk with my next door neighbor who has one of the better punk rock bands in town. Warped sense of humor, but a good sense of melody.) On the other hand, why was his band picked to perform if they weren't going to like how it normally sounded. His band is going to sound fine either way. Don't spend time second guessing your employer. (And apparently the employer didn't specify subs.)

[agedhorse]

What part of reasonableness does everybody just not get?

I have installations where subs are absolutely necessary and those where they are not. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve.

For a polka dance band I would not expect subs to be necessary (with a reasonable choice of tops of course). For a funk band, I would expect them to be pretty much necessary in almost all environments.

Reasonable expectations of performance is the key here.

[Shaster]

+1

I try to bring a sub for most gigs, but I've played hundreds of jobs without subs, with jam packed floors, and happy sweaty dancers.

Just did two weddings, both of which had 150 folks or so. No subs and it sounded great, but more to the point the crowd was very pleased (with encores, improptu conga lines and all that jazz). BTW these were referral gigs (where there were no subs present).

Did a house party recently without a PA (gasp), had an acoustic guitar, and two hand percussionists. There were 30 to 40 people dancing, to stuff from Salsa's to Santana.

Subs are an important part of the PA package but they aren't always a prequisite to a good time.

[Special J]

Wynn, by sub proponents, you mean everybody but you right?

Seriously though, I usually disagree with most of what you say. I do agree to a degree though with what you touched upon with gymnasiums. Subs can be your enemy here. I've been in some gyms and some particularly large, reverberant churches, lecture halls, etc. (In other words spaces designed without a thought to amplified music) where introducing sub-bass into the room turned the entire mix into a muddy, unintelligible pile of dog crap. I find with these rooms, you can take one of 2 approaches.

You can finesse the room by playing to it's strengths, staying away from it's weaknesses, and keeping volumes reasonable, often lowering the sub level or turning them off completely.

The other is to go to battle with the room and overwhelm it by sheer force. You better have the firepower going into it though, or the room could very well win!

The best way to go is usually determined by budget and genre of music.

As far as the OP's situation, I'm definitely in the rather have it and not need it camp. Kids these days like their bass. If their home surround sound has it, their 7 speaker car stereo has it, hell even their computers have subs, then you probably ought to bring the goods.

Unless, as Andy said, you play polka, in which case forget the subs and bring some self defense equipment, because you're likely to get rolled by some 15 year olds.

Oh Andy, BTW, I think you're neglecting the tuba player by not bringing subs to your polka gig. You gotta have the oomp in the oompapa.

[agedhorse]

Oh Andy, BTW, I think you're neglecting the tuba player by not bringing subs to your polka gig. You gotta have the oomp in the oompapa.

 

 

Who wants to hear more tuba? It's kind of like accordians and banjos... a little goes a long way.

[tlbonehead]

Who wants to hear more tuba? It's kind of like accordians and banjos... a little goes a long way.

as opposed to bagpipes?

[Special J]

as opposed to bagpipes?

 

 

Or washboard?

[WynnD]

LOL. Would love to know Andy's prescription for a polka band.

 

I'm not anti-sub. Just don't personally like the way they are frequently used. And I don't use them that way myself. Just about no one hires me without personally hearing my work. That works for me. My reputation as a sound guy is secure with the people who know my work. They are the only ones who count.

 

A particularly badly reverberant room that I was in a few years ago had a very good band in the corner. They weren't playing loud or doing anything wrong. The room just prevented anyone from being able to identify the beat more than 20' away. (Or even what song was being played.) The room was nearly 180' long so the music in that situation was a bad idea. (Don't even know if subs were there or being used.) They've since made more than $50,000 in acoustic improvements to the room and it's now a nice place to play. (Though it has a 95 dbc limit in the room to prevent a neighbor with db meter and 911 on the speed dial from calling the cops. Said neighbor shut down the Denver Filmore for two weeks after it opened and got them to do $25,000 of sound control improvements.)

[agedhorse]

Or I suppose I forgot cowbell too?

With Polka too, a little goes a long way. :poke:

I'll say the same thing about trad. Jazz, as I did about 15 years mixing a headline stage for one of the largest festivals, including 5 years of NPR syndicated radio show (live audio) for one band. Like the music but not "binge-listening".

[wades_keys]

If these guys have never run a sub before, it's probably best to not find out how to do it right at the gig.

 

Introducing new/untested gear at a gig is stupid, IMO.

 

Good luck.

 

Y'all seem to like beating up on old Wynn - but he makes some good points.

 

Subs CAN be abused - they CAN make the mix sound like {censored}; you guys all seem to have the viewpoint that using a sub = instant improvement to the sound.

 

I ain't buyin it: I've seen and heard way too many bands over the years with big dumb, no definition bass.

[tuchan]

After taking a quick read of the last few pages. I think, throw the sub in that you have and set it up. You don't have to use it, or use it at high volume for that matter. Better to have it and get by then not have it and have to send somebody on a run to get it in between sets.

 

Yep I run a couple of dual 18" sub bins and love them. Have also got some smaller 15" bins too for much smaller rooms. I do not have to crank them up for every show. Every show is different. I think better to take the entire kit then think later on, what if I took the subs, would have sounded that little much better (assuming you know how to set up and run well). Where I am down here in Oz. That little much better is the difference between myself getting the gigs and somebody else. I get the gigs, I take it all, needed or not, the full kit and enjoy it:thu:

[modulusman]

If these guys have never run a sub before, it's probably best to not find out how to do it right at the gig. Introducing new/untested gear at a gig is stupid, IMO. Good luck. Y'all seem to like beating up on old Wynn - but he makes some good points. Subs CAN be abused - they CAN make the mix sound like {censored}; you guys all seem to have the viewpoint that using a sub = instant improvement to the sound. I ain't buyin it: I've seen and heard way too many bands over the years with big dumb, no definition bass.

It is an instant improvement to the sound if you are not a clueless idiot and know what you are doing.

[witesol]

I'm enlightened! I was thinking about getting some financing to buy a system like this but I think I'll just buy some EON's instead...

think that'd run off an rmx 850??

[W. M. Hellinger]

think that'd run off an rmx 850??

It would run just fine if wired correctly.

Probably get pretty loud too.

[W. M. Hellinger]

With Polka too, a little goes a long way. :poke:

 

It seems to depend on your BAC of what the threshold of "enough polka" is.

 

And, one of the absolutely LOUDEST bands (and loudest crowds) I've ever mixed for was all polka... subs were definately a big MUST.

[witesol]

It would run just fine if wired correctly. Probably get pretty loud too.

yea

i remember being on a keith urban, belamy bros show that had a pile of subs like that. it created such a LF bump under the stage that the mics would move a half inch on every kick drum hit and bang your teeth

[cappttenron]

It is an instant improvement to the sound if you are not a clueless idiot and know what you are doing.

I think the operative word is clueless idiot.:poke: I love subs but I have been to too many shows where all you get is a kick in the chest from the sub and not much else.

Best sound I heard recently was LOS LOBOS at the Birchmere in Alexandria VA. Solid bottom but not too much.

Worst sound some band at RFK VIP area with some guy who had 8 18 inch woofers and thats all you could hear and you felt like you were being punched in the chest.

So giving lots of subs to some people is like giving dirty Harry pistols to the 1st grade. or a full marshall stack to 13 year old.

[Axisplayer]

... and thats all you could hear and you felt like you were being punched in the chest.

 

 

Somewhere between this excess and Wynn's "nice but not necessary for nearly all music styles" comment is a HUGE expanse of aural possibility that represents almost all reasonable people working behind consoles. Both cases above are extreme and indefensible positions IMO.

 

When you look at a bell curve, you see that it represents a range and, by far, the most common occurrences are at neither extreme. I believe most things in life fit a bell curve. Neither extreme is acceptable in almost ANY situation.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Somewhere between this excess and Wynn's "nice but not necessary for nearly all music styles" comment is a HUGE expanse of aural possibility that represents almost all reasonable people working behind consoles. Both cases above are extreme and indefensible positions IMO. When you look at a bell curve, you see that it represents a range and, by far, the most common occurrences are at neither extreme. I believe most things in life fit a bell curve. Neither extreme is acceptable in almost ANY situation.

 

Without the option, you don't have the option.

 

I rarey use the down-under gears in my truck. For the few times I needed to use them, I'm really glad I paid the freight to have them there. Headroom is all about that which you don't use unless you need to.

 

The few times that I brought just enough gear to a gig... well... I later reflected that I didn't bring enough gear because I spent too much time figuring out how to just squeek by with what I brought (there have been times that I used every cord in the cord bin and wondered how many drivers would still be functioning at the end of the show... and once I mis-calculated and didn't bring quite enough... and that was a really expensive lesson.)

[WynnD]

The few times that I brought just enough gear to a gig... well... I later reflected that I didn't bring enough gear because I spent too much time figuring out how to just squeek by with what I brought (there have been times that I used every cord in the cord bin and wondered how many drivers would still be functioning at the end of the show... and once I mis-calculated and didn't bring quite enough... and that was a really expensive lesson.)

 

 

Very good points. Seems like a lot of people forget that volume controls go two ways and too much equipment can always be turned down. The inverse isn't so easy.

[allexcosta]

Seems like a lot of people forget that volume controls go two ways and too much equipment can always be turned down.

That works for subs too...

[cappttenron]

Pretty mute point anyway. Subs are here to stay, lets just hope more competent people are running sound and not 13 year olds. Now there are some 3 way full range cabinets out there that effectively have the sub built in. Like the one in the SRX line with a 18 woofer.

Lots of DJs run 2x15 cabs with a horn. Of course that comes with its own set of issues.
If I was going to buy some subs I would be looking at a folded horn design probably.

Wonder why no one has built a full range 3 way with folding horn. Klipsch made a horn loaded full range back in the day.

[wades_keys]

 

I think the operative word is clueless idiot.:poke: I love subs but I have been to too many shows where all you get is a kick in the chest from the sub and not much else.

 

Exactly.

 

Clearly this band has not used the sub before.

 

Why learn how to run it properly on the gig?

 

That doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not in the mood to argue because quite frankly it's not my band, and I couldn't care less if other bands sound like c**p.

 

No one even asked what type of music this outfit plays: no one seems to care whether or not they have had success without using a sub - it's just the stock "use a sub or have mediocre sound" argument.

 

But whatever.

[Craig Vecchione]

What's the setlist you'll be hitting the kids with? Anything they know or classic stuff?