Members nbaldwin Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 My band has a gig tomorrow night for a group of about 100 high schools students. The keyboardist decided on our PA system layout for the event and didn't include a subwoofer. Our band members are in their mid to late fifties and didn't cut their teeth on a heavy subwoofer sound. Though it's evident to me that the subwoofer plays a very critical role in contemporary sound systems, I'm a bit frustrated trying to convince a couple of band members. Do any of you soundmen have a word of advice for our band? Much thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Don't worry about it, just play the gig and have fun. So long as the band isn't trying to run the drums and bass guitar through the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nbaldwin Posted November 20, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Thanks, good points. My only worry is that the teen crowd is so accustomed to the body shaking thumps that the show will be a bit less appreciated and the music a bit less likely to move teens to the dance floor; plus, we have a fairly lightweight subwoofer that doesn't seem to be that difficult to move around and set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Choosing to run without a sub, is akin to saying I don't want to hear any of the low frequencies that I normally would, in the real world. Be forewarned; most inexperienced people who play music over an audio system, tend to look for that "just like it sounds live" experience. When their system is incapable of reproducing the low frequencies that the ear (and the brain) expect to hear, they inevitably crank that volume knob. Ahhh!!!, there's that bass. Problem is, they've now also disproportionately raised the volume of the highs, so the lows are STill out of whack. Solution? Let's crank it some more. Poof!!!! I don't know why people have to equate subs, with that boomy overdriven image. Subs, when properly balanced and effectively used, simply reproduce a normal frequency range. Not using one, is in my opinion, as ridiculous as overdriving one. Have you ever listened to a symphony orchestra "live"? Even in the quietest passages, you still feel the "weight" of that large orchestra; and that, is what subs should be about; A natural extension of the low frequency range. Distortion, is what causes listener fatigue. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nbaldwin Posted November 20, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Well said. Thank you! Anyone else with a little wisdom to pass on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 20, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'd be more concerned with *what* you're playing than how it's being amplified. Depending what genre you're playing and what these kids are into, you may have a fun night, or spend 3 hours watching kids stand around looking like (as W M Hellinger states so well) cows staring at a new gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'm in the same age group as you. My first thought is if I had to perform for high school aged kids who basically only know the over compressed, over processed sound that is today's music, I would bring subs. I see two outcomes. Either you are those old guys that played music or you are the old guys that played music and sounded really good. In my eyes, subs are not optional. If you cant convince the powers that be to use subs, make sure you don't mic the kick or bass and have a great time. Being the old guys that played music and were fun to watch isn't bad either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 20, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 To be honest, subs haven't been optional for any form of contemporary music, be it 70's rock, 90's grunge, or today's hip-hop, rap, "modern" rock, etc. The kick is part of that sound. Doesn't need to dominate the mix, but it needs to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Gotta have a good thumpin' kick! Do you guys play contemporary music? I'm with the poster who mentioned the concern for the setlist as much as the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ckcondon Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Can't rock the house w/o subs!I have to ask... What's the setlist you'll be hitting the kids with? Anything they know or classic stuff?I do agree that what you play will have much more of an effect than what you play it through!No matter what, have fun and perform with enthusiasm. Show them why live music rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Do you have any friends in bands that use a sub. Perhaps have another band play a song with and without subs and let them hear/feel the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 20, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Do any of you soundmen have a word of advice for our band? Yes. They are playing to entertain an audience, not themselves. Their interests and tastes should take a back seat to the audience's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 "Any advise for those who aren't into subwoofers?" Buy one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 In his second post he stated they have a lightweight sub, but they (band leader) didn't want to bring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 In his second post he stated they have a lightweight sub, but they (band leader) didn't want to bring it. OK......Bring the sub.....get rid of the Band Leader.:poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 May as well decide you aren't into power amp racks because they are big and heavy to move also. BTW, I am well past your age bracket (closer to 60,) move my gear alone, and would not even show up at a gig without subs, BIG ONES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Part of me worries about what sound environment you'll be in. A good stage and theater? A basketball court? Subs in a basketball court are a disaster. In a good theater, something we didn't grow up with, they would be nice, but easily overdone and probably not missed much if not there. About half the gigs my band plays are without subs. If we're not micing the kick drum, we don't need subs, and the trailer they live on. (Indoors we don't mic the bass either and none of my keyboard parts tax the bottom end.) Subs - nice but not necessary for nearly all music styles. Listening to early 60s rock and roll reminds me how much heavier bass guitar is now. Those people got famous without it. Explains the Fender Bassman amps. 100 tube watts and two 15" speakers. Was the standard for the age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'm with Mogwix on this. Most bands I see don't use subwoofers, but I guess you wouldn't describe them as "contemporary". Certainly, micing a kick through a 15" main isn't unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'm a bit frustrated trying to convince a couple of band members.If you're not happy playin' in a FOG band there are other bands with guys your age lookin' for decent musicians. Frankly sounds like these guys are just too lazy and/or set in their ways to want to do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Running a PA without subs is akin to being told to paint a forests scene, but don't use green. Sure, it can be done, but you won't be particularly happy with the results. Of course, it also depends on the frequency response of the full range cabinets, and what kind of music you are playing. Bluegrass without a sub would be ok. Acopella vocal shows, also probably (aside from a couple notable exceptions). Funk, 80's rock, dance/electronic? Forget about it. You need a Sub for that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 20, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Listening to early 60s rock and roll reminds me how much heavier bass guitar is now. Those people got famous without it. Explains the Fender Bassman amps. 100 tube watts and two 15" speakers. Was the standard for the age. This is a rather revisionist view. Reproducing low frequency was difficult and very expensive in the 60's. Musicians didn't consciously decide to forego the low end, they did without because good subs and suffcient power at a reasonable cost were virtually non-existent at that time. The Bassman 100 was a standard, but that was pretty much the most powerful bass amp readily available at a reasonable price for a long time. When the 300 watt SVT came out, it was a hit and bassists haven't looked back since. The same goes for PA gear. Compare the price of a mere 300 watts in 1970 and today. Compare the amount and cost of speakers needed to provide support for 40-100Hz in 1970 and today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 What is the PA you will be using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Speedhead Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 This is a rather revisionist view. Reproducing low frequency was difficult and very expensive in the 60's. Musicians didn't consciously decide to forego the low end, they did without because good subs and suffcient power at a reasonable cost were virtually non-existent at that time.The Bassman 100 was a standard, but that was pretty much the most powerful bass amp readily available at a reasonable price for a long time. When the 300 watt SVT came out, it was a hit and bassists haven't looked back since. The same goes for PA gear. Compare the price of a mere 300 watts in 1970 and today. Compare the amount and cost of speakers needed to provide support for 40-100Hz in 1970 and today. Exactly. They used what was available to them, and if a more capable system was there for the using, I'm sure it would have not been turned down. And i would be willing to bet that most teenagers today do not listen to music from the 60's, and prefer full range sound. Use the sub if you have it. It doesnt have to be overwhelming bass to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted November 20, 2009 Members Share Posted November 20, 2009 Exactly. They used what was available to them, and if a more capable system was there for the using, I'm sure it would have not been turned down.And i would be willing to bet that most teenagers today do not listen to music from the 60's, and prefer full range sound.Use the sub if you have it. It doesnt have to be overwhelming bass to help. I think you would be very surprised to what kids listen to now. Some of them listen to old school music all the time. I am always amazed that some of them really know a lot about motown. Many bands live without subs you just arent going to get the big kick though. Generally depending how capable your mains are you can put a little kick and snare in the mix to bring them up. Bass probably best if your bass player augments his rig if he has like a 2x10 or something. Put an extra cab on the bass rig to help out. One 8x10 with 300 watts can kick some major ass in a moderate sized place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 21, 2009 Members Share Posted November 21, 2009 disaster. In a good theater, something we didn't grow up with, they would be nice, but easily overdone and probably not missed much if not there. About half the gigs my band plays are without subs. If we're not micing the kick drum, we don't need subs, and the trailer they live on. (Indoors we don't mic the bass either and none of my keyboard parts tax the bottom end.) Subs - nice but not necessary for nearly all music styles. Listening to early 60s rock and roll reminds me how much heavier bass guitar is now. Those people got famous without it. Explains the Fender Bassman amps. 100 tube watts and two 15" speakers. Was the standard for the age. honestly, some of the stuff you come up with........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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