Members Keyrick Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 It should be pointed out the the posts in this or any thread aren't just two people having a conversation over a drink. Many people read the questions, responses, and advice given on these threads and never participate in the conversation. It would be irresponsible for anyone to provide information that is less than proper. Many here understand that and sometimes a less than proper solution will work just fine for years and never cause any trouble for anyone. But that is not an excuse to provide a less than proper solution. If you have never had the pleasure of meeting an AHJ inspector at a location where you are working then salutations are in order. Thoses of us who have remember what it is like, take notice of any requirements placed upon us, and take measures to make sure that everything you can do is done so that the show goes on without a hitch. Will the solution with knockout boxes work? Sure. Is it proper to recommend them in a public forum like this? No, because it does not meet NEC specifications. Just some thoughts. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 It should be pointed out the the posts in this or any thread aren't just two people having a conversation over a drink. Many people read the questions, responses, and advice given on these threads and never participate in the conversation. It would be irresponsible for anyone to provide information that is less than proper. Many here understand that and sometimes a less than proper solution will work just fine for years and never cause any trouble for anyone. But that is not an excuse to provide a less than proper solution. If you have never had the pleasure of meeting an AHJ inspector at a location where you are working then salutations are in order. Thoses of us who have remember what it is like, take notice of any requirements placed upon us, and take measures to make sure that everything you can do is done so that the show goes on without a hitch.Rick Nicely put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Okay, are powercon inlets to the amp rack acceptable? Feeding a quad box inside secured to the rack floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Okay, are powercon inlets to the amp rack acceptable? Feeding a quad box inside secured to the rack floor? Powercons are cool, but: Attention: The powerCON is a connector without breaking capacity, i.e. the powerCON should not be connected or disconnected under load or live! http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/industry/204_390365502/powerCON_20_Amp_productlist.aspx A twist lock (NEMA L5-20) may be a better solution. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 If the box is mounted securely in a rack case, how is it getting banged around? oh, i'm sorry. i guess you dont roll your rack around, go up or down stairs, never hit cracks in sidewalks or go through doorways. your rack never see's trailers, which never drive down the road, shifting their contents (even a little) or hit bumps in the road. since you dont use trailers there is no issue with getting banged up and down a ramp, or lifted or dropped in any way. since you dont do any of those things, why might i ask is your crap in a rack with wheels?:facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 A twist lock (NEMA L5-20) may be a better solution.Rick And will be less likely to throw up a red flag to an inspector... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 As long as they are UL-listed *for the application*, Powercons are fine. BUT, we've usually reminded folks that Powercon is not a commonly available connector in the US, so it's important to keep plenty of spares on hand. You can't run over to Ace Hardware and pick one up if you suffer a loss before a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 It should be pointed out..... Thanks Rick, this unfortunately has to be stated often when the topic is safety, whether electrical, flying speakers, lighting, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 It should be pointed out the the posts in this or any thread aren't just two people having a conversation over a drink. Many people read the questions, responses, and advice given on these threads and never participate in the conversation. It would be irresponsible for anyone to provide information that is less than proper. Many here understand that and sometimes a less than proper solution will work just fine for years and never cause any trouble for anyone. But that is not an excuse to provide a less than proper solution. If you have never had the pleasure of meeting an AHJ inspector at a location where you are working then salutations are in order. Thoses of us who have remember what it is like, take notice of any requirements placed upon us, and take measures to make sure that everything you can do is done so that the show goes on without a hitch.Will the solution with knockout boxes work? Sure. Is it proper to recommend them in a public forum like this? No, because it does not meet NEC specifications.Just some thoughts.Rick Thank you too Rick for your input..... but, I am NOT recommending that someone use a knockout box for this application. I know that a lot of people read these forums for information....hell, Im one of them. I respect and appreciate the knowledge here and those who share it. With that said, I do like to ask alot of questions. By no means am I saying that I am correct in using a knockout box vs. a cast box, but I have also learned(in this thread) that a cast box is not UL listed for portable use either....which was surprising to me considering so many recommend using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Why don't you present your argument to the NFPA, and have the NEC rewritten to allow it? It's obvious that insurance investigators, engineers, professional electricians, and all of the other experienced people who write a code that's adopted in some form in every state couldn't possibly know what they're talking about. And of course, you should tell Underwriter's Laboratories to list it for portable use. I'm sure they won't have any objections. I apologize Craig. Im certainly not trying to be argumentative about this. I was just asking how the knockouts could "fall out". Knowing what it takes to pop one out, I just dont see how its possible....but, with all the razzing I have endured in this thread, I actually asked my electrician buddy if he had any 2 gang cast boxes laying around:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 oh, i'm sorry. i guess you dont roll your rack around, go up or down stairs, never hit cracks in sidewalks or go through doorways. your rack never see's trailers, which never drive down the road, shifting their contents (even a little) or hit bumps in the road. since you dont use trailers there is no issue with getting banged up and down a ramp, or lifted or dropped in any way. since you dont do any of those things, why might i ask is your crap in a rack with wheels? :facepalm: Let me see if I can satisfy your inquiry.Rack is rolled all the time, up and down ramps and stairs, hits all kinds of cracks, crosses door thresholds, lives in a trailer, travels to gigs in the trailer, shifts very little, hits lots of bumps, travels up and down the ramp of the trailer, gets lifted occasionally but seldom dropped and has been for years. But, none of those things mentioned would make a steel knockout just "fall out":poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 With an exposed KO type box, the KO's are exposed to getting bumped and pushed on. I have seen several KO boxes damaged in this way. I have also seen plenty of covers and clamps come loose. The cast boxes with their threaded bushings and bosses are for more suitable and are safer. I make a distinction when discussing applications where an inetm may not meet the letter of the code. I try to explain what the code means and why it's written the way it is. A cast box COULD be UL listed as a portable power box IF it's assembled in a specific way with specific materials and passes all UL tests required for portable power distribition strips or outlets. The KO style boxes could NOT be used as it would fail some of the most fundamental tests and principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Let me see if I can satisfy your inquiry.Rack is rolled all the time, up and down ramps and stairs, hits all kinds of cracks, crosses door thresholds, lives in a trailer, travels to gigs in the trailer, shifts very little, hits lots of bumps, travels up and down the ramp of the trailer, gets lifted occasionally but seldom dropped and has been for years. But, none of those things mentioned would make a steel knockout just "fall out":poke: It's been explained in this thread, but I can see how it would be missed; the knockouts don't simply 'fall out'. They get pushed in, and as soon as that happens, they may as well be gone. There's an opening to the inside of the box, a huge no-no. I stopped by Lowe's this weekend, and had a good look at the quad knockout boxes. Some had popped knockouts in the bin, and I could push any intact knockout in at will. I know that older boxes weren't like this, but it illustrates the inadequacy of these boxes. Andy touches on another problem...the cover scrwes on these boxes seem to loosen much faster than on cast boxes. Also, the covers that have slots instead of holes for the mounting screws seem to be the worst for loosening. In case it isn't obvious....we've all used these boxes and experienced the problems. This isn't theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 It's been explained in this thread, but I can see how it would be missed; the knockouts don't simply 'fall out'. They get pushed in, and as soon as that happens, they may as well be gone. There's an opening to the inside of the box, a huge no-no.I stopped by Lowe's this weekend, and had a good look at the quad knockout boxes. Some had popped knockouts in the bin, and I could push any intact knockout in at will. I know that older boxes weren't like this, but it illustrates the inadequacy of these boxes.Andy touches on another problem...the cover scrwes on these boxes seem to loosen much faster than on cast boxes. Also, the covers that have slots instead of holes for the mounting screws seem to be the worst for loosening.In case it isn't obvious....we've all used these boxes and experienced the problems. This isn't theory! YEP. thats why i pointed that out! many are hanging on by one small "weld" and take no effort to push in. the old ones (even a couple years ago) had two connections per knockout on either side, but more and more i am seeing only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 YEP. thats why i pointed that out! many are hanging on by one small "weld" and take no effort to push in. the old ones (even a couple years ago) had two connections per knockout on either side, but more and more i am seeing only one. It's not a quality issue...it's done to speed installation. Sparky's will buy what they can install fastest, so devices that cut effort sell more. This is why you still see backstab receps, and speed nut plastic boxes that you can simply push recep screws into (my dad would've called it "Jew nailing") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Okay, are powercon inlets to the amp rack acceptable? Feeding a quad box inside secured to the rack floor? Okay, so powercons are generally accepted per above caveat. So, how about bringing them into a quad box(es) secured to the rack floor? This is one of the upgrades I wanted to do to my amp rack, among other things. Should I just get 4 cast boxes for the 4 duplex outlets I need? Whether I have powercons or L5-20, I do not intend to plug or unplug power while live. Every power plug, xlr, or speaker cable gets plugged in BEFORE any amp is turned on, in my case. And all amps and wall plugs, etc are UNplugged only after amps are turned off. Does a muffin fan that's on all the time fall under the "don't plug live" statement? It would, and now does, turn on when I plug my rack in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Okay, so powercons are generally accepted per above caveat.So, how about bringing them into a quad box(es) secured to the rack floor? This is one of the upgrades I wanted to do to my amp rack, among other things. Should I just get 4 cast boxes for the 4 duplex outlets I need?Whether I have powercons or L5-20, I do not intend to plug or unplug power while live. Every power plug, xlr, or speaker cable gets plugged in BEFORE any amp is turned on, in my case. And all amps and wall plugs, etc are UNplugged only after amps are turned off. Does a muffin fan that's on all the time fall under the "don't plug live" statement? It would, and now does, turn on when I plug my rack in. Fan's okay. Very small current draw. Powercons in a quad: got a UL-listed cover that fits them? That was the condition I stated earlier...all of your components should be UL listed, and assembled according to accepted wiring methods. Things like homemade covers, open components (usually no backbox) on a faceplate, etc. are obvious violations and safety problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 I stopped by Lowe's this weekend, and had a good look at the quad knockout boxes. Some had popped knockouts in the bin, and I could push any intact knockout in at will. I know that older boxes weren't like this, but it illustrates the inadequacy of these boxes. Thats funny because I went to Home Depot yesterday after all of this hooplah. I tried to push in half a dozen knockouts in the bin and could not budge one of them. I did the same thing with the one thats in my amp rack and none of the knockouts would budge. As I said before, I asked my elec buddy for a cast box and am going to redo my quad with that.....so we can finally put this thread to rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Bump it with the corner of another box and most will pop inward. That's one way to break one loose on the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Fan's okay. Very small current draw.Powercons in a quad: got a UL-listed cover that fits them? That was the condition I stated earlier...all of your components should be UL listed, and assembled according to accepted wiring methods. Things like homemade covers, open components (usually no backbox) on a faceplate, etc. are obvious violations and safety problems. I didn't intend to attach the powercon to the box. I was going to mount it to a rack blank made for the powercon to fit into. One of these. Then from there, I would use a length of 12-3 SO cable to the quad box. Or boxes, as the case may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 11, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 I didn't intend to attach the powercon to the box. I was going to mount it to a rack blank made for the powercon to fit into. One of these. Then from there, I would use a length of 12-3 SO cable to the quad box. Or boxes, as the case may be. This is a perfect example of what we've been discussiing. That panel might take care of the front, if it's UL-listed. But it isn't. If it was, you would still need a listed backbox, and a strain relief. You can't leave exposed connectors or connections with 120v power. The front panel and the backbox would be required to have a means of grounding/bonding, and the panel shown does not. It is not intended for power applications, regardless of whether the Powercon will mount to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vort Posted February 11, 2010 Members Share Posted February 11, 2010 How about one of these and call it a day?http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2255833&CAWELAID=107596717Not a horrible price at $60 bucks, 20A. Seems worth it for not killing anybody, destroying equipment, or being shut down.Am I off base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 11, 2010 Members Share Posted February 11, 2010 Looks like it has a power switch and a circuit breaker on it = two unneeded possible failure points . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted February 11, 2010 Members Share Posted February 11, 2010 This is a perfect example of what we've been discussiing. That panel might take care of the front, if it's UL-listed. But it isn't. If it was, you would still need a listed backbox, and a strain relief. You can't leave exposed connectors or connections with 120v power. The front panel and the backbox would be required to have a means of grounding/bonding, and the panel shown does not. It is not intended for power applications, regardless of whether the Powercon will mount to it. The Powercon was designed to be placed inside an "appliance" according to Neutrik documentation. It would seem that it is an alternative to an IEC60320 type of power inlet, that provides a locking feature. You would use a Powercon instead of the IEC connector in the design of the product in question so that the accidental removal of the mains feed could not occur. Other than that, there are other devices that are designed for power distribution that have been deemed better suited, where arcing and physical restraint characteristics have been addressed. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 11, 2010 Members Share Posted February 11, 2010 Looks like it has a power switch and a circuit breaker on it = two unneeded possible failure points . Except that a CB is necessary for UL listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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