CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 I'm curious about the "no inspector" thing. You list your location as Charlotte, NC. There's definitely a code and enforcement in both the city and in Mecklenburg County. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 the knockouts can work themselves loose during transport. Im sure thats what the book tells you, but have you ever removed one of those tabs from a knockout box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 Im sure thats what the book tells you, but have you ever removed one of those tabs from a knockout box? All the time. One smack with either end of a screwdriver breaks one end, and it's useless from that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I'm curious about the "no inspector" thing. You list your location as Charlotte, NC. There's definitely a code and enforcement in both the city and in Mecklenburg County. I have never seen an inspector at the local watering hole, which is why I said that I was "lucky" not to have someone looking over my rig. I have not provided PA for anything so far except for local bands at the local bars/clubs. Im guessing that you guys are more into the big time corporate events, or gigs that have a rider?...hence the need to meet all these code requirements. I am simply a local musician that lends my PA and services to other local bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 All the time. One smack with either end of a screwdriver breaks one end, and it's useless from that point. ...and a pretty hard smack at that. Which is why they wont ever just "fall" out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 ...and a pretty hard smack at that. Which is why they wont ever just "fall" out. Yours are hanging out of your rack and completely exposed. One accidental bump on some stage equipment will punch one through. I'm surprised the lid closes with the cords plugged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 ...and a pretty hard smack at that. Which is why they wont ever just "fall" out. except when they do, which is more often then you have experienced. but hey, if its never happened to you, it must have never happened right? as we all know the knockout boxes are built to an extremely high tolerance and high quality and none of them will ever work in a way unintended. go ahead and bang them around all you want, and while you are at it go ahead and remove those pesky ground pins from your inlets, they are just a nuisance. hell most of the new knockout boxes at the BORG only have one side of the knockouts attached and you can push them in with your fingers. apparently we are fools for thinking otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 I have never seen an inspector at the local watering hole, which is why I said that I was "lucky" not to have someone looking over my rig. I have not provided PA for anything so far except for local bands at the local bars/clubs.Im guessing that you guys are more into the big time corporate events, or gigs that have a rider?...hence the need to meet all these code requirements. I am simply a local musician that lends my PA and services to other local bands. Actually, no, I don't do anything big-time at all. And that's even more to the point...it doesn't matter how big the show...if there's a local authority with a code (and NC has a statewide building code in addition to any local interpretations) and you're in a public venue, you are subject to whatever that locale deems appropriate. Interpretations vary widely. That's why in a case like this where 4 bucks gets you better, it's simply not worth arguing over whether a knockout will hold up. It's so much easier to err on the side of exceeding code wherever possible, and welcoming an inspection visit instead of sweating it. It sucks to commit to a band, drag your {censored} out, and then get sent home because of a detail that was easily met. Doesn't happen much, but when it does, it's embarrassing. It may cost more to meet code, but zero dollars from a cancelled show won't pay for a cheaper rig any faster than the more expensive one. Plus, the better rig setups simply look cooler and will impress clients. It also works better and is generally more reliable with longer life. Maybe that'll get you a few corporate gigs. They pay a LOT better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 hell most of the new knockout boxes at the BORG only have one side of the knockouts attached and you can push them in with your fingers. I recently replaced a 22-slot panel with a 40-slot Siemens panel. Had a helluva time getting the big concentric knockouts to remove cleanly...the rings are punched too far and don't stay together. I've been running into this more and more, and it's a giant PITA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I recently replaced a 22-slot panel with a 40-slot Siemens panel. Had a helluva time getting the big concentric knockouts to remove cleanly...the rings are punched too far and don't stay together. I've been running into this more and more, and it's a giant PITA. agrred. with the concentric rings i have found if i use a flat round punch and a tap hammer it works well at getting the ring i want to start; i go all the way around. even larger PITA is when a larger ring starts to come out than the one you want...and then you're mostly screwed. it takes a third hand to hold the block against the other side so the larger ring stays intact, but since many are stamped poorly they have a tendency to want to fall apart. sometimes i would rather have a blank panel and punch my own holes with a greenlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 sometimes i would rather have a blank panel and punch my own holes with a greenlee. Yeah, punch it or drill....either is preferable to a cockeyed install, which is what I had to fix. I hate fixing my own work, especially when there was nothing I could do to prevent the problem. In the future I think I might try a cutoff wheel in a Dremel...grind off the welds and hope the knockout I want comes out instead of the one two sizes bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Regarding cast boxes and threaded KO's, I recall seeing some listing data where the listing requires the assembly to use silicone sealant on the threads of all threaded fittings. Looks like you were ahead of your time Craig! The KO's on a steel box can indeed get pushed in, even from casual use and when that happens, the device terminal screws can be mighty vulnerable to getting sorted to ground. If the hot gets shorted, let's hope the venue's circuit breakers work, and I troubleshot a system with what appeared to be a ground loop but ended up finding current on the ground system. Discovered a quad box with a KO pushed in against the neutral terminal. It was somewhat intermittent too, what a pain. Cost the client about $400 just in labor because it was buried inside an amp rack. The cost of a cast box is only a few dollars more, well worth the difference IMO. Even though it's not technically code compliant due to listing, IF you use the proper strain relief for the application, most enforcement officials will be ok with it. If I'm doing this on an installation job, I will include it as a detail on the drawing set and ask for acceptance/approval. I have always been approved, and the signed approved drawing set is their leagal approval to use. This is the proper way (not saying that this is appropriate for your situation) to go about something that meets the intent of the code but not the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Regarding cast boxes and threaded KO's, I recall seeing some listing data where the listing requires the assembly to use silicone sealant on the threads of all threaded fittings. Looks like you were ahead of your time Craig! i dont remember craig talking about that in this thread(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 i dont remember craig talking about that in this thread(?) A while back in another similar thread, I recall mentioning that the instructions for the boxes cite this requirement. It's intended as weatherproofing, but also helps secure the plug or fitting. I've had plugs come loose more than once; silicone drop, fixed! I had a GFCI protected outdoor box that worked fine, and then started to trip nearly every time it rained, even with the code lid closed the entire time. When I took the thing apart, water poured out of the box when I loosened the cover screws! The box had an unused plug on the top (it was fed via the rear through the building) and my guess was that rain sat on it and dripped in over time. Being otherwise well-sealed, the water eventually reached the receptacle and caused the GFCI to trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 i dont remember craig talking about that in this thread(?)Oops, that was you not Craig. Damn avitar change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 those outdoor boxes can be a pain. we (at my job) have had good luck with using flush mount boxes (mounted in the wall, flush with siding) and waterproof (when closed) covers. we also have a few boxes that are inside enclosed metal boxes with a cord cutout on the bottom; the front panel lifts open - i dont know what these are called but they work perfect and a lot better than the plastic covered boxes. GFCI outdoors are an ongoing problem, they often trip for no reason and need replaced often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oops, that was you not Craig. Damn avitar change Actually, it was me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 GFCI outdoors are an ongoing problem, they often trip for no reason and need replaced often. First, look at the GFCI to see if it's rated for use in a wet location. Many are not, and should be located indoors, with the outdoor receps used as loads to the GFCI. I've fixed many nuisance trip problems with this simple fix. Then if there's something plugged in all the time, be sure it's rated for outdoor, wet location use as well. Insulation isn't always moisture-proof, especially at device inlets or if UV-exposed for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 In the future I think I might try a cutoff wheel in a Dremel...grind off the welds and hope the knockout I want comes out instead of the one two sizes bigger. Those little particles go everywhere. Make sure you really clean it out well with compressed air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted February 8, 2010 Members Share Posted February 8, 2010 That's what I do. That's what I do too. I have two quad boxes mounted on the rack blank on the inside of the panel, and then I mount two Hubbel L5-20P twist lock connectors facing outward so that I just need to walk up to the rack and twist in my two power circuits for that particular rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Those little particles go everywhere. Make sure you really clean it out well with compressed air. Oh yeah. Working from outside the panel helps, and it's definitely a full-face shield job. I've had those tiny cutoff wheels detonate, and a chunk embedded in my arm once. That was no big deal, but if that was an eye..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 8, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2010 Actually, no, I don't do anything big-time at all. And that's even more to the point...it doesn't matter how big the show...if there's a local authority with a code (and NC has a statewide building code in addition to any local interpretations) and you're in a public venue, you are subject to whatever that locale deems appropriate. Interpretations vary widely. That's why in a case like this where 4 bucks gets you better, it's simply not worth arguing over whether a knockout will hold up.It's so much easier to err on the side of exceeding code wherever possible, and welcoming an inspection visit instead of sweating it. It sucks to commit to a band, drag your {censored} out, and then get sent home because of a detail that was easily met. Doesn't happen much, but when it does, it's embarrassing. It may cost more to meet code, but zero dollars from a cancelled show won't pay for a cheaper rig any faster than the more expensive one. Plus, the better rig setups simply look cooler and will impress clients. It also works better and is generally more reliable with longer life. Maybe that'll get you a few corporate gigs. They pay a LOT better. You make some good points here Craig and I thank you for taking the time to make them.That said, you state that the "better rig setup" will look cooler and impress. Please elaborate on that statement. I sure hope that you are not saying that a cast box vs. a knockout implies a "better rig". I am all about having a professional looking setup, which is why I wanted to mount the box in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deke08 Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 except when they do, which is more often then you have experienced. but hey, if its never happened to you, it must have never happened right? as we all know the knockout boxes are built to an extremely high tolerance and high quality and none of them will ever work in a way unintended. go ahead and bang them around all you want, and while you are at it go ahead and remove those pesky ground pins from your inlets, they are just a nuisance. hell most of the new knockout boxes at the BORG only have one side of the knockouts attached and you can push them in with your fingers. apparently we are fools for thinking otherwise? If the box is mounted securely in a rack case, how is it getting banged around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 You make some good points here Craig and I thank you for taking the time to make them.That said, you state that the "better rig setup" will look cooler and impress. Please elaborate on that statement. I sure hope that you are not saying that a cast box vs. a knockout implies a "better rig". I am all about having a professional looking setup, which is why I wanted to mount the box in the first place. I'm not implying that just a box is going to impress anyone. But if your whole rig is made up of appropriate gear for a professional job, it makes a much better impression than orange or green extension cords, Rubbermade boxes, mismatched speakers, etc. However, the cast box makes the rig better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 If the box is mounted securely in a rack case, how is it getting banged around? Why don't you present your argument to the NFPA, and have the NEC rewritten to allow it? It's obvious that insurance investigators, engineers, professional electricians, and all of the other experienced people who write a code that's adopted in some form in every state couldn't possibly know what they're talking about. And of course, you should tell Underwriter's Laboratories to list it for portable use. I'm sure they won't have any objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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