Quad box for amps

[agedhorse]

In fact I am dealing with 2 conflicting codes on a job right now... the county uses the National Electrical Code and the City uses the California Electrical Code, but there is overlap due to date of adoptions and permit/code cycles. This is a 50,000 square foot mixed use project with a church/theatre, classrooms, a Burger King and assorted retail tenants.

I am the electrical engineer of record on the project and feel at times like a babysitter encouraging the authority agencies to get along on the common playground. The 2000 amp, 3ph service is just barely enough to meet the codes but with load profiling it's 40% larger than the maximum calculated peak demand load. This is one area where a little encoragement in understanding the details is really important. To increase service size would cost roughly $250k plus take 1 year. Not a viable option when the calculated peak demand is only 60% of available capacity.

[Craig Vecchione]

Andy, all you need to really round out that one is for some sort of environmental issue to creep in....some Bald Eagles will begin nesting atop the transformers, and it's all over.....

[srp72ee]

Andy, all you need to really round out that one is for some sort of environmental issue to creep in....some Bald Eagles will begin nesting atop the transformers, and it's all over.....

 

 

Not even funny... :poke: But had a similar situation when we were planning a plant expansion at one of our locations. The local historical society pitched a fit. It came down to new jobs or a 120 year old condemned building. We won.

[srp72ee]

The AHJ is ultimately the deciding factor. Here we are not allowed using "SJ" cables for public performances. About 5 or 6 years ago an amusement ride provider was using junior wire to power some of their rides at the county fair. Two 12 year old girls were seriously injured after a decent rain one evening and stepping onto a damaged cable. Cable type, connectors, and power distro's are always under the magnifying glass now at larger public events.

[Craig Vecchione]

Not even funny... :poke: But had a similar situation when we were planning a plant expansion at one of our locations. The local historical society pitched a fit. It came down to new jobs or a 120 year old condemned building. We won.

 

 

I used to laugh my ass off at my old marina. The owner would be out in the woods on his land, firing off guns and firecrackers seemingly at nothing at all. I learned that he did it any time he spotted a protected *anything* in the area. Seems he lost huge amounts of money when a planned expansion of the marina was halted thanks to a pair of egrets nesting in a tree on the land, well away from any of the planned work.

[Deke08]

Deke08, Thanks for the insult. The last quad I built cost right at the top of that range: 35ft of 10/2 cable $20, 3/4" Kellem $36, 20a Hubbell commercial plug $6, two(2) 20a Hubbell commercial grade receps $12, cast box $4, nylon cover plate $2. And this was right before copper prices skyrocketed. If you've got better prices by all means please share them with us. I don't enjoy paying a lot for quality, code-legal equipment, but it's kinda necessary.

 

By no means was that an insult. Perhaps I should have been a little more clear in my posting.

 

My quad box was built for less than $25. Steel box with 2 20a recepticles. The only difference I see is that my box only has 1 foot of 12/3 cable and no kellum.....although it does have a strain relief attached. 35' of cable is not necessary either since I already have a 12/3 extension cord to run to the outlet.

Your biggest cost was the cable and the Kellum. For my specific application, 10/2 cable and a Kellum are not required. Im sure that the box I have is just as "code legal" as yours. So my prices are not "better". I just didnt need the costly items that you did.

[Deke08]

The total cost from wall to amp is the same. Again, the point was the cost of compliant gear. The poster said $80 for a quad box was worthy of having one's head examined. Recall back in the thread that the quad was suggested as a cost-saving measure over the Tripp Lite rack panel. It's not. Whether you use a commercial quality rack panel, build a code-compliant panel, or use a separate code-compliant quad, it still comes to $70-80 to get from amp to distro.

 

Not true....all items from Home Depot and UL listed

Quad box....$4

20a receps....$4x2=$8

Strain relief....$5

1ft 12/3 cable...$6

End plug...$3

 

50' 12/3 extension cable from Monoprice $30 w/shipping

 

$56 and you have a Quad box suitable for supplying power to 4 amplifiers up to 50' away.

[RoadRanger]

Seems he lost huge amounts of money when a planned expansion of the marina was halted thanks to a pair of egrets nesting in a tree on the land, well away from any of the planned work.

 

Anybody here ever eat a Bald Eagle? I find it a bit more tender than a California Condor but lacks the tang of a Spotted Owl .

[srp72ee]

I used to laugh my ass off at my old marina. The owner would be out in the woods on his land, firing off guns and firecrackers seemingly at nothing at all. I learned that he did it any time he spotted a protected *anything* in the area. Seems he lost huge amounts of money when a planned expansion of the marina was halted thanks to a pair of egrets nesting in a tree on the land, well away from any of the planned work.

I understand his perspective.

The historical society missed an important filling date for "legal paperwork" in our case. The morning immediately following the midnight expiration, at 6am (per the noise ordinance), a Cat dozer and 2 excavators leveled both houses, the debris was hauled away and the remaining holes filled in by 9 am. It was a huge parade of trucks. The paperwork was delivered at 10 am, an hour too late. The court injunction delayed the grass planting by nearly a week.

[Craig Vecchione]

Oh I totally sympathized with his position on this. If anything nested on his property, it essentially froze the place until they decided to leave or croaked, and heaven forbid the croaking appeared to be of less than natural causes.

[Coaster]

see? hence the "screamapillar:thu:"

google it!

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Not true....all items from Home Depot and UL listed Quad box....$4 20a receps....$4x2=$8 Strain relief....$5 1ft 12/3 cable...$6 End plug...$3 50' 12/3 extension cable from Monoprice $30 w/shipping $56 and you have a Quad box suitable for supplying power to 4 amplifiers up to 50' away.

 

 

Steel boxes with knockouts don't meet code for any portable application. 12AWG portable cord is not recommended for 20a loads at 50 feet, and won't have 20a plugs. I also doubt it's black, which is a must for stage applications. A Southwire or 50-foot 10/3 extension cord with 20a ends runs about $70. Most are still also not black, so you're generally left to build your own.

 

I want to see what you're calling "strain relief" for $5. Got a link or pic? Kellems cost what they do because they are well made and won't puncture you a year down the road.

[Coaster]

i'm seriously considering buying some amtec grips/pulls for my next snake project. vinny (from this site) showed them to me and they are a lot less expensive. i dont know the quality but it looks comparable to kellums (from pictures, i know it doesnt tell me much)

anyone use amtec grips? i need about 9 or 10 of them, maybe more. i have bought keelums locally from grainger and ho boy they aint cheap. last one i bought was $38

[Deke08]

So, I finally got my shorter IEC cables from Monoprice and that motivated me to mount this quad once and for all.
I got these brackets from a commercial electrician that I know.
They are normally used for mounting boxes in metal stud walls. I had to route out the holes a bit to mount them to the rack, but other than that, the install was very easy.
The 2 piece system slides in and out from roughly 10" to 23". I set them to 19" and used a self tapping screw in the center. Then I used 2 self tapping screws through the bracket into the back of the quad box to hold it secure(sorry no pic of that)
Below are the before and after pics and a shot of the bracket. My elec buddy told me that you can get these at any electrical supply house pretty cheap.

[RoadRanger]

Nice!

[agedhorse]

So, does the back of the rack go on with everything plugged in?

[Coaster]

them are sum fancy invisible wires you got goin to the top and bottom amps' inputs

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Steel boxes with knockouts don't meet code for any portable application.

 

..

[Deke08]

So, does the back of the rack go on with everything plugged in?

Actually, yes. I was worried that the box wasnt going to be set back far enough, but the back lid does not touch the plugs at all.

[Deke08]

them are sum fancy invisible wires you got goin to the top and bottom amps' inputs

Top amp is for monitors 1 and 2. They get XLR input at the show.
2nd and 3rd amp is for mains and subs. Those inputs are running to the crossover.
Bottom amp is a spare.

[Deke08]

..

 

 

As I said before, Im lucky to not have the local inspector looking over my set up at the local watering hole:)

[Craig Vecchione]

 

As I said before, Im lucky to not have the local inspector looking over my set up at the local watering hole:)

 

 

I feel it's important to understand that code is a minimum for safety, not just an annoyance designed to cost you more money. A cast box will cost a few dollars more, and while it could still be interpreted as a violation (it's still not UL listed for portable use), it's much safer and in the big picture, it's almost invisible in the overall price of the rig.

 

As far as being "lucky" that there's no inspector, several years ago a number of teens died in a house fire here in PA, in a rural area with no code law, let alone inforcement. The cause was electrical, and the investigation left little doubt that had the house met any code within the last 25 years, the tragedy, and the deaths, could have been prevented. To be sure I'm not trying to make a analogy between this tragedy and your rig, but trying to coax you to develop a safer mindset. If you take your rig into public places, you have a responsibility and exposure to liability.

[Deke08]

I feel it's important to understand that code is a minimum for safety, not just an annoyance designed to cost you more money. A cast box will cost a few dollars more, and while it could still be interpreted as a violation (it's still not UL listed for portable use), it's much safer and in the big picture, it's almost invisible in the overall price of the rig. As far as being "lucky" that there's no inspector, several years ago a number of teens died in a house fire here in PA, in a rural area with no code law, let alone inforcement. The cause was electrical, and the investigation left little doubt that had the house met any code within the last 25 years, the tragedy, and the deaths, could have been prevented. To be sure I'm not trying to make a analogy between this tragedy and your rig, but trying to coax you to develop a safer mindset. If you take your rig into public places, you have a responsibility and exposure to liability.

 

 

C'mon Craig. While I do respect and appreciate your knowledge, I think you are really reaching here. As you stated, a cast box that thousands of us use all the time is no more code compliant than a knockout box. I disagree that it is "safer" in my application. My quad NEVER leaves the amp case. I dont have it laying on the floor exposed to liquids or other hazards. I would agree with you if it was being used outdoors, or exposed to moisture somehow.

I do agree that I have a responsibility to be safe, and I feel that I am. IMO, mounting the box actually made it safer than it was before just hanging there. I made sure that the box was wired correctly by having a commercial electrician inspect my wiring before I put the quad in use.

I did a sound gig this weekend at a small bar. They had quads mounted outside of the drywall on both sides of the stage.....and yes, with knockout boxes.

[Coaster]

C'mon Craig. While I do respect and appreciate your knowledge, I think you are really reaching here. As you stated, a cast box that thousands of us use all the time is no more code compliant than a knockout box. I disagree that it is "safer" in my application. My quad NEVER leaves the amp case. I dont have it laying on the floor exposed to liquids or other hazards. I would agree with you if it was being used outdoors, or exposed to moisture somehow. I do agree that I have a responsibility to be safe, and I feel that I am. IMO, mounting the box actually made it safer than it was before just hanging there. I made sure that the box was wired correctly by having a commercial electrician inspect my wiring before I put the quad in use. I did a sound gig this weekend at a small bar. They had quads mounted outside of the drywall on both sides of the stage.....and yes, with knockout boxes .

 

 

you dont seem to see the GLARING diffierence here - their quads are BOLTED to the wall. yours is mobile!

 

knockout quads are meant to be stationary, not mobile. the issue is not liquids, as any open top box will have liquids issues (code now requires lay down boxes - hard to source) its the damn knockouts. the knockouts can work themselves loose during transport. cast boxes use threaded plugs which i tend to seal with a dab of silicone over the threads when i assemble (not required)

[Craig Vecchione]

 

C'mon Craig. While I do respect and appreciate your knowledge, I think you are really reaching here. As you stated, a cast box that thousands of us use all the time is no more code compliant than a knockout box. I disagree that it is "safer" in my application. My quad NEVER leaves the amp case. I dont have it laying on the floor exposed to liquids or other hazards. I would agree with you if it was being used outdoors, or exposed to moisture somehow. I do agree that I have a responsibility to be safe, and I feel that I am. IMO, mounting the box actually made it safer than it was before just hanging there. I made sure that the box was wired correctly by having a commercial electrician inspect my wiring before I put the quad in use. I did a sound gig this weekend at a small bar. They had quads mounted outside of the drywall on both sides of the stage.....and yes, with knockout boxes.

 

 

Yes. Those were permanently mounted. That's what they're UL listed for.