How do I get a natural candy apple red finish?

[KevinTJH]

I'm very new to guitar finishing and I'm currently working on a guitar project. The only experience I have is spraying 10 layers of nitro (3 sanding sessions in between) on a maple neck and I've been pretty happy with the results.

 

Right now, I'm working with bare, unfinished mahogany with no sealer yet.

I'm thinking of just staining the wood with a red stain. I want to achieve the Gibson SG Special cherry satin finish where you can see and feel the wood grain, but Candy Apple Red instead. The body and the neck are both mahogany but are slightly different in colour tone though.

I've got a full spray can on nitro lacquer so I'd like to make use of that too if possible.

 

Could someone run me through the steps? Recommend any products if necessary.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm very new to guitar finishing and I'm currently working on a guitar project. The only experience I have is spraying 10 layers of nitro (3 sanding sessions in between) on a maple neck and I've been pretty happy with the results.

 

Right now, I'm working with bare, unfinished mahogany with no sealer yet.

I'm thinking of just staining the wood with a red stain. I want to achieve the Gibson SG Special cherry satin finish where you can see and feel the wood grain, but Candy Apple Red instead. The body and the neck are both mahogany but are slightly different in colour tone though.

I've got a full spray can on nitro lacquer so I'd like to make use of that too if possible.

 

Could someone run me through the steps? Recommend any products if necessary.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

You can use a translucent finish to show grain through the finish, but I don't think you can do that with a candy finish.

 

Allow me to explain what I mean...

 

A candy apple red finish is usually done by sealing the guitar, priming it, then painting it either metallic silver or metallic gold. Then the translucent red is applied over that. You see "through" the red and get the metal flake sparkle from the layer beneath it. Without that layer below the red, you don't have the sparkle... and with that metallic layer comes opaqueness - you can't see the grain due to the gold or silver layer under the transparent red.

 

Maybe Freeman or someone else will have a suggestion, but I really don't think it can be done. Sorry.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

As Phil says, there is transparent finish, ie wine red, cherry red, and there is solid colour, and CAR is solid

[Freeman Keller]

 

 

 

You can use a translucent finish to show grain through the finish, but I don't think you can do that with a candy finish.

 

Allow me to explain what I mean...

 

A candy apple red finish is usually done by sealing the guitar, priming it, then painting it either metallic silver or metallic gold. Then the translucent red is applied over that. You see "through" the red and get the metal flake sparkle from the layer beneath it. Without that layer below the red, you don't have the sparkle... and with that metallic layer comes opaqueness - you can't see the grain due to the gold or silver layer under the transparent red.

 

Maybe Freeman or someone else will have a suggestion, but I really don't think it can be done. Sorry.

 

That is exactly true. Traditional Candy Apple paint jobs like you see on custom cars from the 60's were translucent red (or other color) shot over either a gold (usually) or silver background. The same applies to a guitar - you would prime it, then shoot a metalic gold (you can also throw in metal flake at this point), then multiple thin coats of translucent color, then clear coat. I'm not aware of gold lacquer that would work here, you probably need to use automotive products. You also need to be really good with your gun and lay down perfectly even coats each time.

 

The other option is the cherry finishes that you see on SG's and other Gibsons (mostly, Fender doesn't go thru all this work). In that case there is no metallic coat, only multiple coats of translucent finish (again, in the case of old Gibsons, lacquer). The other part of this finish is that usually a stain is applied to figured wood which is absorbed at different rates into different parts of the wood - flame absorbs more than the parallel grain.

 

So the order of finish for a cherry red SG would be stain (red, amber or blue) to pop the grain, usually a wash coat of vinyl sealer or very thin lacquer, multiple coats of translucent lacquer, multiple coats of clear, color sand and buff. I've had pretty good luck making my translucent red with 5 or so drops of an aniline dye in about four oz of lacquer (that is what my gun holds and is about enough for one coat) - as always practice on scrap. Again, you need to be pretty good with your gun but the way nitro burns into itself you get a little leeway.

 

Here is a traditional cherry red over maple finish

 

 

And here is a translucent red applied over an amber center - so called clown burst

 

 

 

Here is the back of that guitar, it is mahogany like yours.

 

 

By the way, mahogany will need to be pore filled - there are lots of different products for that, including paste fillers that can have a little bit of color. Don't try to get your fill with your finish coats.

 

A really good reference for traditional guitar finish (not automotive finish) is Dan Erlewine's Guitar Finishing Step by Step. If you want to do automotive style finishes I can't help you but find someone who paints motorcycles - they are usually really good at this.

 

I've got a build thread going right now called Another 335 where I do a bright red cherry finish over flamed maple - it is NOT a candy apple finish because there is no gold. It would be very easy to modify that color making it more burgundy by adding a little blue (or staining with blue) or more "bubble gum" by staining with amber.

 

edit to add, here is the 335 thread. The finishing section starts on page 4. That guitar has a mahogany neck that was pore filled with StewMac brown filler, no stain, then finished right along with the rest of the guitar.

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...ther-335/page4

[KevinTJH]

Thanks so much for the informative responses, guys! I probably misunderstood "Candy Apple Red". I suppose I was referring more to the lighter sort of transluscent red as opposed to the very dark wine red finishes you get from some of the Gibson guitars.

 

This is the finish I'm going for. When I mentioned "Candy Apple Red", I guess I was more referring to slightly lighter red. However, I already bought my red dye (looks fairly light to me) so I'll see what happens when I use it. I won't be disappointed it even if it comes out like this SG.

 

So you mentioned that mahogany needs to be pore filled (what product do I use?). Do I put the dye/stain on before or after this process?

 

 

Would I be able to get away with a simple process like this?

 

1) Pore fill

2) Red stain/dye

3) Nitro lacquer coat (just like the neck I finished).

 

 

Would this work? I'm not really interested in a shine at all and I don't want to make the finishing job too complicated for myself.

[billybilly]

Personally, I wouldn't even worry about the pores, they'll be there, but I think it's more natural and has more mojo that way, others will disagree.

 

I'd just do step 2 and 3 and be done with it. Don't sand too fine before you stain, you want it to absorb.

[Freeman Keller]

Personally, I wouldn't even worry about the pores, they'll be there, but I think it's more natural and has more mojo that way, others will disagree.

 

I'd just do step 2 and 3 and be done with it. Don't sand too fine before you stain, you want it to absorb.

 

 

I humbly disagree but what I always want in my finish is as smooth and perfect as possible. I really don't like "natural" finishes. However you want a matt or satin finish you can do that with your clear or by simply not buffing to a high gloss - take some 0000 steel wool and know the shine off. However I'll say once again - PRACTICE ON SCRAP.

 

Erlewine (remember the book I recommended) gives three different SG cherry red recipes depending on the year of the guitar

 

First one:

- fill neck and wood with dark walnut oil based grain filler

- wipe or spray red NGR stain on all mahogany surfaces. Burnish with a dry rag

- spray two vinyl sealer wash coats (seals the stain in)

- spray two more full strength vinyl sealerm sand to 320 (note you can replace vinyl sealer with rattle can sanding sealer)

- spray 6 to 8 coats of lacquer,

- color sand and buff to whatever level of gloss you want

 

Second one:

- fill neck and wood with dark walnut grain filler

- spray 3 vinyl wash coats, sand to 320

- spray 1 or 2 coats of cherry red lacquer

- spray 7-10 coats of clear lacquer

- color sand and buff

 

Third

- spray a dark walnut stain

- vinyl wash coat

- brown grain filler

- wipe with red NGR stain

- wash coat

- 6 - 8 coats of clear

 

You can buy compatible guitar finishing products from LMII, StewMac, Reranch - lots of places. I like StewMac but I think its good to buy from the same source so you have some compatibility. StewMac also have some great finishing tips on their web page.

 

I'll add that I find it very difficult to uniformly apply stain by hand - I prefer spraying

 

Whatever you do, practice on scrap.

 

[KevinTJH]

Thanks guys! That's plenty of info to get me going now!

 

 

 

I humbly disagree but what I always want in my finish is as smooth and perfect as possible. I really don't like "natural" finishes. However you want a matt or satin finish you can do that with your clear or by simply not buffing to a high gloss - take some 0000 steel wool and know the shine off. However I'll say once again - PRACTICE ON SCRAP.

 

Erlewine (remember the book I recommended) gives three different SG cherry red recipes depending on the year of the guitar

 

First one:

- fill neck and wood with dark walnut oil based grain filler

- wipe or spray red NGR stain on all mahogany surfaces. Burnish with a dry rag

- spray two vinyl sealer wash coats (seals the stain in)

- spray two more full strength vinyl sealerm sand to 320 (note you can replace vinyl sealer with rattle can sanding sealer)

- spray 6 to 8 coats of lacquer,

- color sand and buff to whatever level of gloss you want

Personally, with my limited experience, I'm not expecting this to come out commercial quality. Even it looks somewhat like a homemade guitar, it still adds a little bit of character. As long as it doesn't look like complete crap!

 

I like the sound of Recipe one, so I might give that a shot. Thanks again!

[billybilly]

Just go for it, it's fun and rewarding. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results. You've done a neck, not much different really.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Please take lots of pics as you go along and keep us posted!

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks guys! That's plenty of info to get me going now!

 

 

Personally, with my limited experience, I'm not expecting this to come out commercial quality. Even it looks somewhat like a homemade guitar, it still adds a little bit of character. As long as it doesn't look like complete crap!

 

I like the sound of Recipe one, so I might give that a shot. Thanks again!

 

Recipe one involves staining the wood, two is applying the color in the finish coats. Some cautions about staining. We usually use aniline dye in solvent - either water or denatured alcohol. Water tends to raise the grain, you'll have to sand after applying the stain which is not necessarily a good thing. Alcohol does not raise the grain. Stains are very hard to apply evenly - if you brush or wipe them on they can be very blotchy. End grain, sanding scratches, the pores will all absorb more stain than flat grain - you'll really see this in you neck heel, the sides of the guitar, any curves of the top. That may or may not be a look you want.

 

Alcohol based stains will migrate into the lacquer laid down on top - thats why we use a seal coat. I assume you are doing this with rattle cans - if you get some lacquer "sanding sealer" that is a good seal coat where the recipe calls for vinyl sealer. Or you can just let it bleed.

 

The real problem with stains is that you get one chance.

 

Get some scrap mahogany from a lumber yard or someone like me that builds guitars and practice. Wear latex gloves while you work with stains - it takes weeks to get the color out of your fingers. Good luck, have fun and show us the results.

 

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/ColorTone_Clear_Grain_Filler_Instructions.html

 

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/ColorTone_Liquid_Stain_Instructions.html

 

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/ColorTone_Aerosol_Finishing_Kit_Instructions.html

 

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/ColorTone_Tinted_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquers.html

 

[6down1togo]

All good advice except I question the use of lacquer as a satin topcoat. Satin lacquer (or even gloss lacquer flatted with a green scotchbrite pad) will "gloss up" just from handling. The back of the neck will become glossy and wherever you rest your hands while playing will do the same.

 

​One of the first refinishes I ever did was on a clapped out mid-70's Strat that the owner had covered with sequins and wanted it redone in satin walnut. I did a really nice job on it and used Deft Satin (lacquer) for the finish. It looked great but within a month, the guy brought it back because the body was "getting shiney spots all over it". I learned my lesson and reshot the body with satin polyurethane but left the neck alone (he liked the feel on the neck).

 

​Fender had the same issue on the original Hwy 1 Strats. They had sprayed a light coat of satin lacquer right over their gloss polyester finish and touted them as a Nitrocellulose finish. They immediately became shiny wherever they were handled and generally looked like ass by the time they were couple years old.

 

​If I were you, I would use a satin polyurethane finish directly over the stained wood. No need for grain filler as the polyurethane will fill the grain with a couple coats. You can spray it or wipe it on. I like to wipe on the initial coats with old Tshirt material, scuff with a scotchbrite between coats and spray (aerosol can is fine for satin finishes) the final coat. Don't be afraid to use the new water born polyurethanes. They are odorless and go on looking milky white but dry crystal clear and cleanup requires only soap and water.

[1001gear]

You could try this for a base coat,

 

http://www.ronanpaints.com/japan.htm

 

and then just spray real candy apple.

[WRGKMC]

Here's a good product for the price. http://www.northwestguitars.co.uk/candy-apple-red-nitrocellulose-guitar-paint-kit/