Why Retro? Why Now?

[UstadKhanAli]

The products that claim "Just push a button and be a musician!" don't sell. Most people don't believe it in the first place.

 

No, but there sure seem to be a lot of grumps who think that other people believe it.

 

Retro is largely about things that are often not made that way any more. Or it could be that sometimes....maybe it was really quite enjoyable.

 

With respect to synths and LPs and such, and it's enjoyable. This is not so difficult to grasp, is it?

 

You talk to people who love vinyl, and they'll tell you that they love the whole experience. Taking it out of the packaging, the large packaging, putting it on the turntable, putting the needle down, listening to the crackles, turning it over. DJs love the whole experience. It's physical.

 

A modular synth. Gee. I wonder why it's more fun to play than a soft synth?

 

Does it matter that vinyl or modular synths have been around for decades? Or is it simply that it's physical...and enjoyable?

 

[Anderton]

 

No, but there sure seem to be a lot of grumps who think that other people believe it.

 

Retro is largely about things that are often not made that way any more. Or it could be that sometimes....maybe it was really quite enjoyable.

 

With respect to synths and LPs and such, and it's enjoyable. This is not so difficult to grasp, is it?

 

You talk to people who love vinyl, and they'll tell you that they love the whole experience. Taking it out of the packaging, the large packaging, putting it on the turntable, putting the needle down, listening to the crackles, turning it over. DJs love the whole experience. It's physical.

 

A modular synth. Gee. I wonder why it's more fun to play than a soft synth?

 

Does it matter that vinyl or modular synths have been around for decades? Or is it simply that it's physical...and enjoyable?

 

 

It sounds like you've seen my "Hi-Res Audio...So What?" presentation. I really need to post it online. You'd love the part about vinyl, but I take it one step further: it's a more social medium. Going to record stores, pawing through the vinyl, and you pretty much need to listen on speakers, which means that - gasp! - multiple humans can have waves of air wash over them.

 

OTOH I find soft synths more fun to play because they can do things conventional synths can't do. But, I cheat and use a hardware controller so I can "perform" with it instead of doing set and forget stuff.

[Anderton]

But I'm still wondering...why now? Vinyl didn't go away when the CD arrived, but now it's taking off. Why not 10 years ago? Why didn't modular synths have a renaissance 20 years ago instead of 5 or 10? Why did analog synths make a comeback what, 5-20 years ago? Where were all these things hiding out in the 90s and early 2000s? Timing...

[UstadKhanAli]

But I'm still wondering...why now? Vinyl didn't go away when the CD arrived, but now it's taking off. Why not 10 years ago? Why didn't modular synths have a renaissance 20 years ago instead of 5 or 10? Why did analog synths make a comeback what, 5-20 years ago? Where were all these things hiding out in the 90s and early 2000s? Timing...

 

 

I think they got gradually bigger. Well, at least in my circles, people have been enthusiastically collecting vinyl for more than 10 years, but I don't know if that's representative of elsewhere in the country.

 

But why recently?

 

To put my theory forth again, I think it's physicality.

 

CDs had some sort of physicality at least. MP3s and streaming don't. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that vinyl really ramped up when people began primarily playing MP3s and streaming instead of purchasing CDs.

 

Modular synths and lots of analog synths with knobs didn't really start ramping up until the industry started wholeheartedly marketing and embracing soft synths about ten years ago. Seriously....where's the fun in that? NO ONE I know thinks that a soft synth that emulates an analog synth sounds the same, and NO ONE I know thinks they're as fun. I mean, which do you want to do, click and do mouse moves or grab knobs and cables and start playing?

 

I really strongly believe this. I am a giant bore saying this over and over. I feel like my friends who have been purchasing modular synths and vinyl - especially the ones who were doing it before people noticed, "Hey, you know, there's lots of 20-somethings buying vinyl now" - would look at my explanation and go "Well yeah....duh."

 

Physicality.

 

 

[MikeRivers]

But I'm still wondering...why now? Vinyl didn't go away when the CD arrived, but now it's taking off. Why not 10 years ago? Why didn't modular synths have a renaissance 20 years ago instead of 5 or 10? Why did analog synths make a comeback what, 5-20 years ago? Where were all these things hiding out in the 90s and early 2000s? Timing...

 

New ears listening. When CDs came out, to most music listeners of that era (discounting the audiophiles, of any era), the CD was an across-the-board improvement over the phonograph record. But music has changed since then, and many of today's listeners believe that it can sound better than it does in the form that they're receiving it. It would be hard for those listeners to go back to CDs because the record companies know they couldn't sell a $25 CD in a world of downloads for pennies.

 

But they have discovered that they can sell a $25 phonograph record, and sell enough of them so that they can make money doing it. I think you're right that there's a certain social thing about listening to records that kind of went by the wayside when CDs became the standard, and how many people invite their friends over after school to listen to a download stream?

 

I don't know if it will ever come to this, but when music becomes more expensive to purchase, there will be less purchased, and this may ultimately lead to fewer, but better music products will be coming out. The music that you listen to once and discard or forget it will either filter out entirely or be what you get with the cheap streams, and if you want to hear the primo artists, you'll need to get the LP and learn how to enjoy listening for the sake of listening.

 

I'll add another thought. I've been pretty closely involved in traditional folk music (the real folk music) for upwards of 50 years now, and one thing that I've noticed is that the process of learning from those who came before often skips a generation. A teen-ager in Mississippi who wants to learn more about the music that evolved from his home can't learn from his father, because his father played rock'n'roll. But his grandfather still has some old records and maybe his old guitar. It could be that we're skipping back over the last generation's media because there's more that we can learn (about what, I'm not sure) from the prior generation,

 

[Anderton]

I really strongly believe this. I am a giant bore saying this over and over. I feel like my friends who have been purchasing modular synths and vinyl - especially the ones who were doing it before people noticed, "Hey, you know, there's lots of 20-somethings buying vinyl now" - would look at my explanation and go "Well yeah....duh."

 

Physicality.

 

Well maybe I don't have the timeline right, but it seems there was a major gap between the time modular synths went out of fashion, and when they came back. Ditto the gap between streaming taking over and vinyl reappearing .So either during that gap people didn't feel the need for physicality - which raises its own questions - or something was "rediscovered," like a lost art. I tend to lean toward the latter, with the physicality making it a desirable rediscovery.

 

Digital synths came along and they were affordable, more convenient, and super-reliable. So they became established because they were considered as a better alternative, and analog synths faded away. (I bought a Minimoog at the "bottom of the market" and to all the people who thought I was crazy, my answer was "This is going to be the arch top Les Paul of the 2000s." Looks like I was at least right about that. )

 

But I think the problem was that digital synths hit a wall where they became very similar. I think sampled strings on a Yamaha, Roland, or Korg synth all reached a level of quality but also reached a level of uniformity. At that point, digital wasn't "new sounds." So "the gap" happened during a period of progress, but then when digital synthesis hit a wall, people wanted something new and since nothing new was coming along, they reached back to something that had been neglected for sufficiently long that it was for all practical purposes new again.

 

Same with multieffects. They became so similar that the rebirth of stompboxes allowed for more variety. (Although I must admit, I'm pretty blown away by the Line 6 Helix. It may be the start of a new age of multieffects...or the final realization of the existing genre.)

 

[Notes_Norton]

I think a lot of things go through that cycle.

 

Here today, gone tomorrow, back a few years from now.

 

Even songs. I played in Top40 bands for years. New song comes out. Gotta learn it quickly. A month or two pass and it's old hat. Does anyone want to hear "All About That Bass" anymore? Top40 bands can't do it anymore.

 

A few years later, bring it out, it's a classic (if it was a big enough hit).

 

When things are new they are overplayed and yes, people get tired of them. Years later, it's bringing back an old friend.

 

I suppose that relates to what you just said about sounds. People got tired of the DX7 sound, and moved to sound after sound until the ROMpler matured.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Notes

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Well maybe I don't have the timeline right, but it seems there was a major gap between the time modular synths went out of fashion, and when they came back. Ditto the gap between streaming taking over and vinyl reappearing .So either during that gap people didn't feel the need for physicality - which raises its own questions - or something was "rediscovered," like a lost art. I tend to lean toward the latter, with the physicality making it a desirable rediscovery.

 

Digital synths came along and they were affordable, more convenient, and super-reliable. So they became established because they were considered as a better alternative, and analog synths faded away. (I bought a Minimoog at the "bottom of the market" and to all the people who thought I was crazy, my answer was "This is going to be the arch top Les Paul of the 2000s." Looks like I was at least right about that. )

 

But I think the problem was that digital synths hit a wall where they became very similar. I think sampled strings on a Yamaha, Roland, or Korg synth all reached a level of quality but also reached a level of uniformity. At that point, digital wasn't "new sounds." So "the gap" happened during a period of progress, but then when digital synthesis hit a wall, people wanted something new and since nothing new was coming along, they reached back to something that had been neglected for sufficiently long that it was for all practical purposes new again.

 

Same with multieffects. They became so similar that the rebirth of stompboxes allowed for more variety. (Although I must admit, I'm pretty blown away by the Line 6 Helix. It may be the start of a new age of multieffects...or the final realization of the existing genre.)

 

 

Those account for things too. I didn't mean to imply that one reason exists in a vacuum. There was a major gap in the time modular synths went out of fashion and when they came back. But so much of this is from software synths not being physical. You get modular synths that are software synths, and sooner or later, someone wants the real thing.

 

Even with digital synths, at first, it was a lot of menu scrolling. People got sick of that, and digital synths soon had many more knobs. Physicality. Then there were a lot of modeling of analog synths, again with knobs. Then....well, hey, let's bring the old thing back.

 

Computers also kicked a lot of the reasons for having digital workstation keyboards to the curb.

 

Things go in cycles. Modular synths won't always be popular (again). Something else will happen. And then there will be a reaction against that. And then someone will point to that and say, "Jeeez. This is marketing. We've already seen something similar." I'm already seeing some people talking about FM synthesis, such as the one on the Teenage Engineering OP-1.

 

As far as Line 6, people may like that because....well, they make high quality stuff.

[Etienne Rambert]

Vinyl sounds good, especially monoaural.

[WRGKMC]

 

Respectfully, I think this is a bunch of sh**.

 

Every single young person I know who likes analog or modular synths, vinyl, or old guitars (and I mean old guitars, not guitars made to look old) respects craftsmanship and thinks the stuff is cool. They respond to things that are physical.

 

Why the hell do you expect to market software synths and streaming music and plastic crap to everyone? Do you think every young person will really like this? Or maybe they like something that you grab, twist, pull out of a sleeve, hold, play, etc.

 

Seriously, when are we going to stop selling people's intelligence short? Why do you think whole generations of people will be bamboozled by salespeople?

 

Why don't you just pull out a flame thrower. Jeeze.

 

Maybe people have different life experiences then yourself and have a good reason for having a different perspective.

 

My perspective comes from being an electronic tech all my life and servicing allot of gear people made foolish decisions purchasing.

 

I rarely face people who "Don't" have problems with gear so from that aspect, you really haven't got a clue about what I posted unless you are in that part of the business.

 

I've come across countless situations where people value old gear that go well beyond reasoning. Also, because I am in that business working with sales people all day I see right through the sharks who feed on people's willing to believe in myths. I've had countless opportunities to cash in on those same myths myself, but you see I'm one of those rare birds who would feel guilty doing that and has always believed honesty is a good policy. It hasn't made me rich but I will likely outlive many because I sleep well at night.

 

When I see people selling stuff like old caps for hundreds of dollars claiming they produce some magical vintage tone, I'm going to call them out for what they are. I know those parts cost pennies to make and the values of those components have likely drifted way out of specs due to their age. Even if aged cap tone is what someone wants I'll tell them the lest expensive way to get it.

 

That's only one of hundreds of circumstances where I see the hype goes way beyond reality. I don't expect to be loved by others, especially by those who market in BS for telling the truth. In fact I expect them to pull their flame throwers out when I challenge their occupation.

 

But, if you actually read my thread you'd know I actually love old gear. I've spent half my lifetime restoring old vintage gear to specs for a living and the other half doing it as a hobby. I even have I sizable collection of unique vintage gear and add to it on a regular basis. I been buying vintage gear restoring it and reselling it to someone who appreciates its worth for over 50 years now, I don't participate in myth building however.

 

When I open up a piece of gear and see its poorly built with low grade components and crap workmanship, I cant help but recognize it for what it is. If I worked for that manufacturer, I probably wouldn't go telling my customers they bought a piece of junk if I want to keep my job, but I'd surely push them to upgrade given the opportunity.

 

On the other hand, I highly value quality builds using the best man made parts and construction too. I value quality engineering and construction because I know that costs a whole lot more, and usually produces a much better sound quality and reliability. I do marvel mans ability to create works of art in electronics.

 

There are many instances where vintage gear is given a very high value because its justified. The best quality was put into its design, the highest quality parts were selected and its performance is A+. I have no problems with giving those products a thumbs up no matter how old they are.

 

What I don't and wont endorse is junk gear being thrown into that class. When I see something like a Vintage Pedal consisting two $1 transistors and a couple of resistors costing ten cents selling for $700 I call it what it is. If there's nothing in that circuit that's obsolete and cant be bought today, I cant condone the unrealistic prices they sell for.

 

I realize there are collectors out there who will pay those prices. Gear owned by famous artists is another. That's pure mythical Mojo in my book.

 

To me that's a different kind of snake oil all together. You are selling history, not the actual gear itself. They are playing the market hoping to make a profit on that piece of history becoming even more valuable. .If that's your game that's fine. People collect everything from stamps to toilet seats. So long as they aren't there trying to sell an old used toilet seat to some unsuspecting kid whose is falling for his false claims I could care less what he sells it for.

 

 

 

What it comes down to is this.

 

Besides being a tech all my life, I've also been a musician. I taught many kids to play including my own for a long time. An important part of that musical education is being a good mentor. If some kid asks me about some piece of gear or asks me what I think is a wise choice, I'm gong to give him an honest opinion and my best suggestions for his particular situation.

 

That advice is not etched in stone and it is customized to that individuals wants and needs. If they are into vintage gear I do have many decades experience repairing that gear and give him my best guidance choosing the diamonds within the rubble.

 

But there again its just an opinion. One mans junk is another mans fortune. Most people are going to make their own decisions. I realize there are many who wont understand a selfless passion for protecting them and may even resent it like you have expressed, but I can assure you I was simply giving you my perspective on a topic. I have good reasons for having that perspective because I work in the service industry and face customers all day long..

 

Being a salesman is not something I'd ever want to be. I Don't have that much blind faith to have doors shut in my face all day long. I do have to live with all the promises and hype they sell customers. Hardly as day goes by when I meet some customer who says "Your salesman told use this gear could do this or that" What you'd like to say and what you can say and keep your job are two different things, so lets just say I'm hyper sensitive to false claims made by salespeople who make unrealistic claims and leave it at that.

[Folder]

 

 

My perspective comes from being an electronic tech all my life and servicing allot of gear people made foolish decisions purchasing.

 

 

So have you come across any of these in your line of work?

 

http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/009864.php

 

How do they sound? I haven't been able to find any reliable reviews for this product.

Are they really worth $485 per knob? Do they have the MOJO?

[Anderton]

 

So have you come across any of these in your line of work?

 

http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/009864.php

 

How do they sound? I haven't been able to find any reliable reviews for this product.

Are they really worth $485 per knob? Do they have the MOJO?

 

 

Everyone knows that the only way those work is if you use a Sharpie to draw a line around the outer circumference.

[dboomer]

I used to say stuff like that too. Then I had an engineer that I highly respected show me some measurements for some of these wild claims. Turns out they do cause changes. BUT... Do any of those changes affect what you can hear? This one? I'm guessing there isn't a system pure enough that anyone in the world could hear the minute changes in audio by altering the resonate frequency of a knob on a pot. I would also bet that it could be measured however.

 

So what does that $700 fuzz pedal with two $1 transistors have that makes it world $700? The answer is "something" and that is proven assuming they have ever made a sale of one. I remember doing some research when GC bought "Brownie" and commissioned Fender to make a limited run replica. Turns out a number of people, even realizing that it was a "copy" and not the real thing still expected that some of Eric Clapton mojo would rub off on them while they played one. Go figure.

[Folder]

I used to say stuff like that too. Then I had an engineer that I highly respected show me some measurements for some of these wild claims. Turns out they do cause changes. BUT... Do any of those changes affect what you can hear? This one? I'm guessing there isn't a system pure enough that anyone in the world could hear the minute changes in audio by altering the resonate frequency of a knob on a pot. I would also bet that it could be measured however.

 

So what does that $700 fuzz pedal with two $1 transistors have that makes it world $700? The answer is "something" and that is proven assuming they have ever made a sale of one. I remember doing some research when GC bought "Brownie" and commissioned Fender to make a limited run replica. Turns out a number of people, even realizing that it was a "copy" and not the real thing still expected that some of Eric Clapton mojo would rub off on them while they played one. Go figure.

 

In economics there is something called "The Law of Diminishing Returns".

 

If somebody hears "something" in that $700 pedal and they "think" it's worth paying ten times the amount of the $70 pedal then more power to them.

[Folder]

Vinyl has gotten a lot more interest than hi-res audio. The big deal in synths is analog. Modular synths with patch cords are back. For some reason I can't fathom, people buy new guitars that are made to look like old guitars. Guitarists still want tubes...

 

There has always been an interest in retro; it may be just me, but it seems to be accelerating. I wonder if it's because the world is just getting to darn confusing and disjointed for people, and retro is the technological equivalent of comfort food...

 

For me when I think of "retro" (at least in the context of audio) I'm thinking more of a sound than a thing.

 

I think what happens is that technology marches forward. Old is replaced with new. Then somebody comes along and says "Hey you know, I think the old was better than the new". Then people try to figure out why they think the old was better than the new.

 

In the case of recorded music somewhere back in the mid to late eighties a lot of people started focusing on the equipment being used to record older music because they thought it sounded better than what was being recorded at the time.

 

Then "retro" and "vintage" became marketing terms

 

Of course the equipment being used does have a lot to do with the sound. Vintage instruments and equipment can certainly have that MOJO. Most of the best guitars I've ever played were over fifty years old. But for me they are just higher quality and sound better I don't care that they are vintage.

 

Does a free plug-in with a beat up looking vintage model GUI sound better than an expensive brand name one with a modern space age GUI?

 

Not necessarily in my experience but I will admit that when I see the beat up old vintage model GUI I tend to think that it might have a sound I might be interested in because I've heard good vintage gear and I assume that's what they are trying to emulate.

[Mikeo]

Vinyl has gotten a lot more interest than hi-res audio. The big deal in synths is analog. Modular synths with patch cords are back. For some reason I can't fathom, people buy new guitars that are made to look like old guitars. Guitarists still want tubes...

 

There has always been an interest in retro; it may be just me, but it seems to be accelerating. I wonder if it's because the world is just getting to darn confusing and disjointed for people, and retro is the technological equivalent of comfort food...

 

 

Some people still have a soul. Some people make tool house cookies from scratch and some folks cut a roll of that pre-made toll house cookie dough off a a tube of pre made dough. It's not exactly the same process or taste, but you still have cookies.

 

Last year I bought a new Gibson Mandolin that is a design that is approaching 100 years now. I know a couple of fiddle players that are playing 300 year old design instrument. That's old I guess.

 

 

Jump on the band wagon and reissue a few of the Gibson amps. There seems like there room for more reissued amps. Why not some of the Gibson amps.

 

 

 

At one time there was record stores, you'd get your purchase and take time to open the thing up and drop it on a turntable. There was a lot of romance to that process. Now folks digital down load music instantaneously, which has no romance to it at all. Music these days is not comfort food, but garbage food out of a vending machine. Some of it's really tasty vending machine food all in all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anderton]

At one time there was record stores, you'd get your purchase and take time to open the thing up and drop it on a turntable. There was a lot of romance to that process. Now folks digital down load music instantaneously, which has no romance to it at all.

 

Look at the iTunes home page compared to going to a record store, pawing through the albums, and looking at the covers. I don't think vinyl has anything to do about "sounding better." It's about having a connection to the music.

 

 

[Geoff Grace]

It's been my experience that things rarely happen for a single reason—but rather because of a variety of reasons.

 

In this case, the reason that rings true for me—as far as modular synths and LPs are concerned—is the notion Ken put forth: they offer the richest physical experience in a world that's overloaded with virtual experiences.

 

Modular synths not only have the tactile advantage of keys, they also offer knobs to shape the sound and patch cords to connect modules. No other type of keyboard offers a more physical connection to sound sculpting. Similarly, LPs offer the most satisfying physical interaction with the listening experience. Both the cases and discs are more satisfying to touch than those of the CD or cassette formats, and the artwork and liner notes are larger and more satisfying to look at.

 

When looking at trends, I examine both what's being embraced and what's being rejected. Never before have there been so many virtual ways to interact with the world. If you want to reach out to friends, there's texting, email, Facebook, Twitter, forums, private messaging, etc., all of which provide no physical interaction other than text on a screen. I think there's a craving to get back to the world around us and enjoy the totality of our five senses. As a keyboard player using solely a vast array of virtual instruments, I know I find myself craving something like the Akai Advance line of keyboards to have a more physical interaction with my "gear." Now that we finally have it all in the virtual world, we're left craving the missing piece. This is the reason I offer for "Why now?"

 

None of this explains the guitar phenomenon Craig mentioned in his opening post as guitar players already enjoy the type of physical interaction Ken and I are bringing up. Again, I think things rarely happen for one reason alone. I'll leave an explanation for that to the guitar players in this virtual room.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Notes_Norton]

More thinking out loud.

 

We are in the business of making memories. When a band goes out on tour, they play their old stuff and a few from their new album.

 

Most people want to hear the songs of their youth for the rest of their lives.

 

I've known it for a long time. I play night clubs, country clubs, yacht clubs, cruise ships. etc. I don't play music, I play memories

 

Even Billy Joel knows, "Son can you play me a memory, I'm not really sure how it goes, but it's sad and it's sweet and I knew it complete when I wore a younger man's clothes."

 

When visiting my mother and mother-in-law in their nursing homes, others who cannot even speak, can sing along with the songs of their youth.

 

So is retro hard wired in us?

 

If not, why bring back cassettes? New cars that look like old ones? Why buy antiques? and so on.

 

Notes

 

[MikeRivers]

 

Modular synths not only have the tactile advantage of keys, they also offer knobs to shape the sound and patch cords to connect modules. No other type of keyboard offers a more physical connection to sound sculpting. Similarly, LPs offer the most satisfying physical interaction with the listening experience. Both the cases and discs are more satisfying to touch than those of the CD or cassette formats, and the artwork and liner notes are larger and more satisfying to look at.

 

Naw, the most satisfying physical interaction with the listening experience is first to wind up the Victrola spring motor. Mine has a double spring and a full winding is good for about three records.

 

There's no reason why they can't make a digital synthesizer that has all the controls of an analog synthesizer and a matrix router to replace the patchbay for more reliability (unless you consider a patch cable making intermittent contact to be a serendipitous creative sound). Thing is that this isn't the economic model for a digital synth. The customers expect the cost saving you get by not having physical controls, and they want recallable patches, so that's how they build 'em. So, yeah, retro fills that bill for those who have the money and the commitment to learn how to use it.

 

[onelife]

For some reason I can't fathom, people buy new guitars that are made to look like old guitars. Guitarists still want tubes...

 

I believe the marketing efforts to save the American Guitar that began in the '70s and '80s is responsible for that.

 

 

Back in the early '80s (pre Fender JV series) a friend of mine showed up at my door with a 1954 Fender Stratocaster. I had been playing CBS strats for several years and said "what's the big deal about the old ones?" He just handed it to me. I was knocked out when I played it. The difference in finishes alone gave the '54 a much more natural feel than either my '72 or my '79 and those sounds from the records that I loved were all there. It felt like it was alive in my hands.

 

Around the same time, another friend shoed up with an incredible Ibanez Artist/Musician guitar and I suddenly had an appreciation for Japanese guitars. My friends and I used to peel the Made In Japan stickers off of our Gibson and Fender copies but this guitar was superb. The workmanship was incredible and the attention to detail flawless. One of the smoothest and best feeling guitars I have ever played.

 

It seemed that guitar manufacturers were only building guitars as good as they had to in order to sell them. Gibson and Fender could just stamp them out and people would buy them based on reputation. The early Japanese copies were using the reputation of the big guys as well but when they wanted to be taken seriously they had to make better copies. Ibanez, Yamaha and Tokai guitars were getting so good some people preferred them to the "real thing" that was being built at the time by CBS and Norlin.

 

By the time I discovered them, I could not afford a '50s strat so I bought a Fender JV model (MIJ) when they first came out. It was my Number One for many years and I still have it.

 

 

When CBS and Norlin (or whoever the parent companies were at the time) realized what people were paying for old instruments that they did not actually build but owned the patents for, they saw a marketing opportunity and they took it. I believe the reason the marketing opportunity existed in the first place was the deterioration in the quality of workmanship from Fender and Gibson.

 

 

As for still wanting tubes, there is a lot of mystique associated with them. It seems that in the same way the guy with the Epi or the Squier wants a "real one" a lot of player have been convinced that they still need a "real" tube amp.

 

I personally think that the very thing that makes tube amps great is also their weakness. A guitar player friend of mine was a regional rep for Yamaha and started gigging with a DG80 modelling amplifier when they first came out. I was so impressed with it that I bought one right away and I still have it. Absolutely zero maintenance in the 15 plus years that I have been using it. It has all of the advantages of tubes and none of the disadvantages.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Haven't seen that one but hundreds of similar. The internet has opened the doors to snake oil salesmen. I don't blame the salesmen for making a profit I simply question the people who would buy things like that.

 

I should add, long before the internet I used to buy and sell regular at flea markets. My parents were heavily into antique selling and I was "Recruited" to help because I had a strong back. I'd make regular trips around those markets. There's nothing like it for an education. Much better then EBay because you get to talk to the people who bought the gear new and could tell you about it. My interest was mostly musical and electronic which I'd horse trade.

 

You would come across allot of crazy stuff being sold and even crazier prices. You'd get to know the difference between scam artists and real collectable items very quickly, especially when you worked the used gear markets.

 

My advice still comes down to buyer beware. You cant stop people from putting a high price tag on their goods. People thought Pet Rocks were a stroke of genius, and the people who sold them cant be blamed, but we know it was a joke in those cases. If someone sells an every day rock on the other hand for exorbitant prices we who have some scientific horse sense should look at any scientific BS being made to drive up the price, and call the people out on those claims.

 

"Most" people appreciate being warned against such scams, but it doesn't seem to put a dent in the imaginative ways people try and reach into your wallet. . Many people just have to learn the hard way I suppose. I come across many of those in the repair business. They ask you why the gear doesn't do what the sales people claim, and breaking the bad news of how they were rooked is never easy.

[Anderton]

We are in the business of making memories.

 

That is absolutely, certifiably BRILLIANT. There's even a physiological basis for that statement. I don't remember the details, but there was a paper about how memory is like a three-dimensional matrix, and music can access sections relatively easily.

 

I wonder if having a physical experience with retro things "cements" memories of things we've seen, but not experienced. For example, if you've seen pictures of Keith Emerson with his giant Moog modular that you remember, playing with a modular gives extra meaning to that memory. Hmmm...

 

 

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Why don't you just pull out a flame thrower. Jeeze.

 

I just really dislike throwing whole generations under the bus. As always, YMMV.

 

Some people are stupid. Some people do fall for marketing or "fake mojo". I get it. All that is true.

 

But I hear these sweeping generalizations extending to whole populations of people way to often on this forum because of the forumites' advancing years, most likely. But yes, I apologize, I could have said it more nicely.

 

But to be clear, I meant every point I made.

 

You're coming at it from an electronics standpoint. I get that. It's a considerably narrower view, but one that should be acknowledged. Most of us began the conversation from a cultural standpoint. This is a much broader, general view, and the conversation that I thought I was joining.

 

A lot of older stuff sounds great because they made it a certain way, and that way is very appealing, romantic, and great sounding to our ears. A lot of it is physical because some of us get tired of using things with a mouse, and would rather use something that is more electro-mechanical. Some of us might want something that is physical instead of using MP3s. Some might prefer a well-crafted hand-made instrument instead of a mass-produced one. Some of us may prefer wood grain to polymer.

 

If we're stupid for doing that, then hey, count me in as one of the stupid ones.

 

I might not always purchase things like this, but I sure do appreciate them while continuing to keep at least one foot in modernity.

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

So have you come across any of these in your line of work?

 

http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/009864.php

 

How do they sound? I haven't been able to find any reliable reviews for this product.

Are they really worth $485 per knob? Do they have the MOJO?

 

 

If anyone can hear the difference and identify it consistently in double-blind listening tests, I'd be extremely surprised.

 

IMHO, we need to file this one under "snake oil."