Members dennis a Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 You're not a glutton for punishment, are you? I had a national's BE come into a venue I was working and the national's sound co. sent a Recall with the system. The BE compared it to a Mackie but used stronger language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 There is something to be said about having a console that can pass almost any rider. Unless a BE refuses all analog (and it does happen) it will pass every rider. H3000 can come to any of my shows without one complaint from anyone but roadies..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 I had a national's BE come into a venue I was working and the national's sound co. sent a Recall with the system. The BE compared it to a Mackie but used stronger language To be fair, I can see the parallels. The Amek does have quirks, but I wouldn't exactly say I'd rather have a Mackie or even a Series 5, not even a PM4k(I once did a live sports broadcast where one channel lost EQ, and another lost the ability to send to auxes during the broadcast. After the gig, the people who owned the truck said, "yeah, I guess we'll just have to put some new opamps in." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 There is something to be said about having a console that can pass almost any rider. Unless a BE refuses all analog (and it does happen) it will pass every rider. H3000 can come to any of my shows without one complaint from anyone but roadies..... I could probably be talked into it, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Will you help me think this out? You can consider the audience plane to be 15' below the speaker. In the same example, at 4 kHz with a 40 degree dispersion, what are the approximate levels at each point 10 and 20' back from the stage, (outdoors) respectively? Speaker is 110 dB at 1' on axis. If I understand what you are modeling in the example, the point source is 15' above the ears of the audience. Even with a 90 degree vertical dispersion (+/- 45 degrees from horizontal), there will not be any direct sound reaching the audience's ears until you are 15' away from the vertical plane of the speaker. I am assuming that the axis of the speaker is horizontal, not tipped down. With a narrower angle of dispersion, the point of hearing direct sound from the speaker moves farther from the edge of the stage/plane of the speaker. Think of the view in cross section; that is where the geometry (not math) appears to be the issue. Or maybe I'm missing something (or lots of things). Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 There is something to be said about having a console that can pass almost any rider. Unless a BE refuses all analog (and it does happen) it will pass every rider. H3000 can come to any of my shows without one complaint from anyone but roadies.....You're not helping to talk me out of this. "We" (or at least "I") need a 10 step program and support group if I'm ever going to have any glimmer of hope in kicking the habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dennis a Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 You're not helping to talk me out of this. Buy it. Buy it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 If I understand what you are modeling in the example, the point source is 15' above the ears of the audience. Even with a 90 degree vertical dispersion (+/- 45 degrees from horizontal), there will not be any direct sound reaching the audience's ears until you are 15' away from the vertical plane of the speaker. I am assuming that the axis of the speaker is horizontal, not tipped down. With a narrower angle of dispersion, the point of hearing direct sound from the speaker moves farther from the edge of the stage/plane of the speaker. Think of the view in cross section; that is where the geometry (not math) appears to be the issue. Or maybe I'm missing something (or lots of things). Mark C. The speaker is angled on axis to the furthest listener at 20' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Will you help me think this out? .... what are the approximate levels at each point 10 and 20' back from the stage, There's no way to know indoors. This is not an example where inverse square really has relevance. It's gonna depend on the room and the pattern control at that frequency for a specific speaker. Now at those distances the listeners are not really listening to the same source (I'm assuming a single speaker) as the speaker performs differently at the different angles. You might wanna play with a free program like Ease Focus to get an idea of how it might work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 There's no way to know indoors. This is not an example where inverse square really has relevance. It's gonna depend on the room and the pattern control at that frequency for a specific speaker. Now at those distances the listeners are not really listening to the same source (I'm assuming a single speaker) as the speaker performs differently at the different angles. You might wanna play with a free program like Ease Focus to get an idea of how it might work out. Hi Don, I had a big reply, but read back through the thread and see we are trying to discuss two different, but related, things. I'm only trying to discuss coverage (poorly I suppose) and why, with directivity control and angles, the SPL (at a given freq) within the audience needn't vary. Outdoors, modeled, the 10 and 20' measurement are within about 1.6 dB of each other at that frequency; obviously the geometry of a room along with the physical and acoustical characteristics of a room will determine CD indoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Agreed ... let's recapThe terms long throw and short or medium throw are commonly misused. They are not technical terms (and therefore "myth). All "point source sound" be it a typical loudspeaker or the sound from your acoustic guitar follow inverse square law (and inverse distance rule). Where there are little or no reflections from boundaries (walls, ceilings, buildings, etc ... in other words outdoors in a field) the rule holds for a long ways. Indoors it holds until you reach/cross the "critical distance line (the imaginary line where the direct sound and the reflected sound are equal in intensity/power.The mistaken belief comes from the fact that a tighter pattern will concentrate the sound more, hence be louder to begin with. But it will not "throw" farther.All of this applies to microphones (even "shotguns) but in reverse. Again, shotguns just discriminate against more unwanted sound so the ratio of intended to unwanted is greater ... but the "reach" is the same.Your point I believe is that "pattern control" can be used to your benefit by strategically aiming your speakers to take advantage of natural roll-offs. Absolutely! By "Flying" speakers you have much greater use of the speaker geometry. That's why you see it done in many pro fixed installs. For portable systems it's expensive and much precaution must be taken so that it is safe. For a lot of us that means speakers up on a pole. So in this case you can't really make much use of geometry and will just be stuck with "inverse square" and the qualities of the room that you are in ... unless you can afford a "true" cylindrical source system (oh,oh ... I feel a line array myth coming ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 nice recap Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Agreed ... let's recap The terms long throw and short or medium throw are commonly misused. They are not technical terms (and therefore "myth). All "point source sound" be it a typical loudspeaker or the sound from your acoustic guitar follow inverse square law (and inverse distance rule). Where there are little or no reflections from boundaries (walls, ceilings, buildings, etc ... in other words outdoors in a field) the rule holds for a long ways. Indoors it holds until you reach/cross the "critical distance line (the imaginary line where the direct sound and the reflected sound are equal in intensity/power. The mistaken belief comes from the fact that a tighter pattern will concentrate the sound more, hence be louder to begin with. But it will not "throw" farther. All of this applies to microphones (even "shotguns) but in reverse. Again, shotguns just discriminate against more unwanted sound so the ratio of intended to unwanted is greater ... but the "reach" is the same. Your point I believe is that "pattern control" can be used to your benefit by strategically aiming your speakers to take advantage of natural roll-offs. Absolutely! By "Flying" speakers you have much greater use of the speaker geometry. That's why you see it done in many pro fixed installs. For portable systems it's expensive and much precaution must be taken so that it is safe. For a lot of us that means speakers up on a pole. So in this case you can't really make much use of geometry and will just be stuck with "inverse square" and the qualities of the room that you are in ... unless you can afford a "true" cylindrical source system (oh,oh ... I feel a line array myth coming ) Excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 You're not helping to talk me out of this. "We" (or at least "I") need a 10 step program and support group if I'm ever going to have any glimmer of hope in kicking the habit. Mark, can't help you kick the habit. There is 16 minutes left on the auction and no one has taken it yet. If I had the cash I would have to own it. Its one time I could actually say "thats it, I won't have to replace that console." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 Its one time I could actually say "thats it, I won't have to replace that console." Yup, that board is probably destined to eventually take a place along side other relicts similar to my '75 FXE. Most of the time my FXE is out to pasture in my office... and yea... it was obsolete when it was built (37 years ago): Push rod valve train, point ignition, etc... But it sure brings back some memories to saddle-up and take it around the block once in awhile (even if I gotta push it home). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 But it sure brings back some memories to saddle-up and take it around the block once in awhile (even if I gotta push it home).Q: How is an AMF Harley like an hound dog?A: They both like to ride home in the back of your pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 Q: How is an AMF Harley like an hound dog?A: They both like to ride home in the back of your pickup. Q: And what is the difference between the two?A: The hound dog has a chance of getting into the truck under its own power. Sorry, couldn't help myself. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 Mark, can't help you kick the habit. There is 16 minutes left on the auction and no one has taken it yet. If I had the cash I would have to own it. Its one time I could actually say "thats it, I won't have to replace that console."Stewart: I've "standardized" on PM4K's and Meyer Ultra series for my old school second childhood. The H3000 probably would have fit in... really nicely, but... I gotta draw a line somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 I've "standardized" on PM4K's and Meyer Ultra series for my old school second childhood. The H3000 probably would have fit in... really nicely, but... I gotta draw a line somewhere. If you're going to go old-skool, go reliable. The Yamaha boards won't win any beauty contests, but they'll be a lot more trustworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 No, this thread is for myths not truths :poke: YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted March 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2012 I like this one. A good soundman can make you sound as good as you are. A bad one can only make you sound worse than you are. Not sure whether that's meant as a myth but a good (and bold) soundman can make a band sound much better than they are by pulling down a slider on someone who shouldn't be playing or singing for an audience - while keeping them up in their own monitor mix, of course. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 If you're going to go old-skool, go reliable. The Yamaha boards won't win any beauty contests, but they'll be a lot more trustworthy. Mixing a show tonight using 36 inputs on an older skool Yamaha console that has about 6000 shows on it. Works as good as the day I bought it. Sounds as good as it needs to and better than many "fancier" (read as more trendy and more heavily marketed) consoles. I have no problem not being trendy. It's the perfect tool for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted June 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 This thread is too entertaining...bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Smaller speakers cables are cheaper and then you can buy extra long ones, like 100 footers just in case you have to put a speaker in the crapper for listening music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted June 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 If the Band sounds bad...it is always the soundman's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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