Members StratGuy22 Posted October 16, 2014 Members Share Posted October 16, 2014 Here it is again. This weekends gig is our Chamber of Commerce awards gala. 400 people, $2600 for the band. I'll be bringing a couple of +1's as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 16, 2014 Members Share Posted October 16, 2014 Unfortunately to a great extent' date=' I'd say yes. [/quote'] I've spoken at great length about this topic over the years over at the BWTB forum. It's a subject I take pretty seriously. A good band is going to beat a good DJ every time. The problem is that so many bands just aren't that good. And a lame or middling DJ is going to beat a lame or middling band because at least he can play the right songs at the right time and have them sound good. Bands just really have to step it up. There's a gazillion reasons to point to for the problems, but one that I think sums a lot of the problems up pretty well is DJs have stepped up their game massively over the last 30 years while bands are still trying to just do their best to be Led Zeppelin. Giving people a 20th century entertainment model in 2014 is only going to go so far. If live music wants to be competitive with other forms of entertainment in the coming years, it's going to have to take on new forms. At that's true at all levels of performance and pricing. As far as bands vs. DJs at weddings go, here's a bit from a wedding we did a couple of years ago. Just some clips from a cheap vidcam, so it nowhere near professional promo/demo quality, but it's pretty representative of how most of our weddings go. (Well, other than this happened to be a lesbian wedding, and we don't play those every day...but that's a topic for another thread, perhaps...) DJs just aren't going to be able to work up a crowd this much in most cases. ~~[video=youtube;qNNb0TBa_rw] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 16, 2014 Members Share Posted October 16, 2014 One of the venues that I work for is a country bar. It is a mix of Live & DJ music (4 nights X 4 sets of live music per week). If you watch the people' date=' they just want to line dance and they do so whether it's a band or canned music..[/quote'] Bars are a different deal, but bar bands need to step up their game as well. But speaking of Reno...not much line dancing going on here, but I don't a DJ being as successful at this gig: [video=youtube;41ctA0sMxrk] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted October 16, 2014 Members Share Posted October 16, 2014 Unfortunately to a great extent' date=' I'd say yes. One of the venues that I work for is a country bar. It is a mix of Live & DJ music (4 nights X 4 sets of live music per week). If you watch the people, they just want to line dance and they do so whether it's a band or canned music. The amount of dancers has more to do with which song is playing than what the source is (actually they remind me of a bunch of lemmings - that dance because there is music and a floor with a zombie like stare - very strange). I of course don't want to tell management this because they would stop hiring bands and go full time DJ (leaving me with less work). Ideally this money could go to book a much better venue on the property (less often but with higher quality music) but the mind set of this latest crop of folks would be to just pocket the difference (forget BUILDING a business, it's about "how low can we go?" :-).[/quote'] I remember a bumper sticker I saw years ago. "Line Dancing, look what happens when cousins breed":D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GtrGeorge! Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 My take: its apples and Kiwis. People who want a very authentic experience will want a band,Its the interaction...the reality if it all. Good bands can control their volumes just as well as any DJ. I know: Ive done it for years (thank you e-drums!). But some clients want a very prefab experience and thats ok,imho They want that specic song by that certain artist and a DJ can give that. But be aware....a DJ often doesn't know how to ad-lib while the groom is 5 minutes late. Looping the same section 32x doesn't quite cut it. . There is a flexibilty in very skilled musicians that isnt there in the same way with a DJ. Its like comparing an orchestra versus a CD player. A proper Orchestra is one massive organism making music. A CD player has a volume control. Its not the same. But some clients want a very tight, pre-fab experience and DJs are exceptional in that way. There is more dynamics with a band (not refering to just volume here). Audition a great wedding band..and see (wow)...what a great experience they can provide. Also audition a DJ and see how that suits you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Your take is 100% spot on, George. I'm just looking at things from the marketing point of view and always realizing that most people don't know what they want, or at very best, know what they want but don't know how to get there. Take them to a great DJ show or present them with a list highlighting the benefits of a DJ and they'll say "I want that!" Take them to see a great band and they'll want that too. at some point it simply comes down to who does the better job marketing and selling themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 My feelings are about the same as a couple of years ago. If I play a wedding these days, it's usually because we've been hired because of what we do. The client has seen the band and wants just that - no Old Time Rock 'n Roll required. Play the EDM or Beyonce in the breaks and you're good to go. Bands that go after weddings have to be much more flexible and "DJ like". Nothing wrong with that, but it's not something I'm interested in anymore. I did a gig this summer, where they flew the band in from LA. They were a funk band, and that's what they played. We were a twenty piece "surprise" during the ceremony. That was a blast and we got to work with the groom's client. Now those are the kind of weddings I would bend over backwards for. We were paid for rehearsals, gas, and the gig itself - pinch me, I think I'm dreaming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just thinking about the reliability issue. If one band member no-shows, most decent bands have someone who can stand in. If the DJ gets sick, the gig's not gonna happen unless he calls in another DJ. Seems a wash from this perspective. The family wedding I discussed a few weeks ago brought up another point. A DJ should be able to play anything requested. I think that's an agreed-upon plus. So what happens when specific songs are requested well in advance, the party is told there's no problem at all, and then these songs are never played? The groom took the DJ aside and asked WTH was going on, and was told, "I couldn't find them". We're not talking about oddball stuff, all the songs were mainstream and popular. I would have cut his pay, but I suspect the groom had paid the DJ in full at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just thinking about the reliability issue. If one band member no-shows, most decent bands have someone who can stand in. If the DJ gets sick, the gig's not gonna happen unless he calls in another DJ. Seems a wash from this perspective. The family wedding I discussed a few weeks ago brought up another point. A DJ should be able to play anything requested. I think that's an agreed-upon plus. So what happens when specific songs are requested well in advance, the party is told there's no problem at all, and then these songs are never played? The groom took the DJ aside and asked WTH was going on, and was told, "I couldn't find them". We're not talking about oddball stuff, all the songs were mainstream and popular. I would have cut his pay, but I suspect the groom had paid the DJ in full at the start. That's just unprofessionalism of the first order. I can only imagine that this was just some starting-out DJ who didn't have a clue what he was doing. As far as cutting his pay goes, hopefully this was a situation of "you get what you pay for" and his pay had been effectively cut when the groom decided to hire the budget DJ. Lesson learned for both, perhaps. One of the tricks with weddings is there are really no do-overs. From the band/DJ perspective, all you can do is make the best of a bad situation and work to not repeat it next time, but from the clients' perspective--they are only getting married once. So you don't get to come back and do everything better tomorrow night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 I did a gig this summer, where they flew the band in from LA. They were a funk band, and that's what they played. We were a twenty piece "surprise" during the ceremony. That was a blast and we got to work with the groom's client. Now those are the kind of weddings I would bend over backwards for. We were paid for rehearsals, gas, and the gig itself - pinch me, I think I'm dreaming... Yeah, those kind of gigs are good stuff for sure. Have one coming up this next summer: we played a wedding a couple of years ago and one of the guests liked us enough that he's flying us out to Idaho for his wedding in August. The cost for everything is going to be pretty high (although money spent is relative to the amount one has, of course) and I feel added pressure to perform up to the level of expectation based on two years of "remembering" how awesome they must of thought we were. I hope their memories are correct! LOL. But it's always nice to be wanted, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Here's a possible analogy:A couple weeks ago I attended a large potluck event. There was probably >100 potluck dishes at the event. My take is that each potluck dish clearly fell into 1 of 3 categories: 1) Store bought... where the dish was "picked out" at a supermarket, and the food stuff was unceremoniously transferred to a serving dish or simply the wrapper was removed and set on the buffet table. I'll liken this to a commodity grade DJ. 2) Assembled from "ready to eat" store bought ingredients, where the "cook" bought the prepared ingredients and assembled. An example of this would have been the store bought cookies that were jazzed up with some store bought frosting and sprinkles, and nicely arranged on a decorated serving platter. I'll liken this to a "performance level DJ". 3) Scratch cooking. Some and likely many of the scratch cooked dishes were largely or entirely comprised of home grown or home made ingredients and original recipes. I'll liken the scratch cooked dishes to "a live band"... with the home grown ingredients/original recipe dishes likened to "a band doing a lot of originals." The #1 type dishes were "predictable"... all were "ok"... fairly "safe bets" but not all that inspiring (yer basic "hole fillers"). BTW: I supplied "chips & salsa and grapes"... I'm no cook... but my supplied "chips & salsa and grapes" were well received (all gobbled up by the crowd)... I guess I expertly picked out the "just right" pre-made stuff and served it up tastefully for the event. The #2 type dishes were more varied... some were "pretty good" and some were... well... "not a very good combination"... or didn't fit with the theme of the event... which was a "Mexican food theme for the event". The "canned" spaghetti and meat balls dish didn't really fit... although it was a fairly nice combination of canned spaghetti and meat balls, "expertly warmed up" and served in a nice serving bowl and thoughtfully topped with a generous amount of "shook out of a can" parmesan cheese. The #3 type dishes were generally either unbelievably good or not so good (to my taste) and not much in-between. Sadly, some of the worst and least "in demand" (went begging) dishes were likely the most original and the result of the most amount of work. The fresh (still warm) huckleberry pie and home made ice cream from fresh that morning jersey cow cream was stunning (and got gobbled up promptly... I believe that was the first "empty" dish on the buffet table.). I did my best to try some of everything... which involved a couple hours and many trips through. I'll say that the #3 dishes, good or bad, were the most interesting and the most memorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted October 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Pay cut agreed Craig, that is terrible. DJ didn't meet the SLA at all in my opinion, could easily result in a non pay scenario. And the DJ was actually paid money right? Imagine if that was the bridge and grooms song, complete flop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 My feelings are about the same as a couple of years ago. If I play a wedding these days, it's usually because we've been hired because of what we do. The client has seen the band and wants just that - no Old Time Rock 'n Roll required. Play the EDM or Beyonce in the breaks and you're good to go. Bands that go after weddings have to be much more flexible and "DJ like". Nothing wrong with that, but it's not something I'm interested in anymore. The key to commercial success--in ANY business--is to be able to niche yourself to a specific market segment and learn how to exploit that to the fullest. No one can, or should, be all things to all people. Broaden (or narrow, depending on which end of the spectrum you started from) your business model and customer reach only to the degree its comfortable and works for you. If you're the best Porsche repairman in town, that's probably going to be enough to keep your business going. If it's not and you decide you need to work on some other cars too? That's great as long as you're comfortable with it and still good at it. Competition is tough out there, but that doesn't mean you need to be just like the competition. In fact, it usually means the opposite. You have to differentiate yourself in some manner or another. But it DOES mean you have to be as good as them regarding those factors that are important to your client. If you're going after the same clients as somebody else, it's not enough to say "that other guy sucks". You have to actually BE better and sell yourself as more valuable to that client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 Competition is tough out there, I agree and disagree. If you're going after the same clients as somebody else, it's not enough to say "that other guy sucks". You have to actually BE better and sell yourself as more valuable to that client. I agree. Furthermore to both of the above, I believe completion is tough out there... as in: if you're fixin to open another burger joint on burger row, and your burgers, soft drinks, and fries are basically the same formula stuff as everyone else's and priced about the same, with a similar business model, atmosphere, and wait staff, competition is likely tough. Maybe consider coming up with a clown, surrealistic cartoon king, or antenna ball headed commercial spokesperson to set your otherwise formula business plan apart from the "rest". And/or wave the flag and offer some rewards program to save a buck if you spend a hundred more and offer some reference of "for the children". On the other-hand: Break out of the mold and offer something that can't be had anywhere else in the area and which meets acceptance with some significant portion of the market, and it's a whole different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 True all that. Only problem is most people are completely clueless when it comes to being as good at marketing burgers as the last 99 successful burger joints that came before them. Asking them to break out of the mold and market a product to people that they don't even know they want yet? Yeah...that's a whole different game for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 I gotta say, at most of the weddings I've been to, there've been bands (that probably reflects on the company I keep as a musician myself). I can only think of one I've attended where there was a paid professional DJ (he was playing classic rock too!) and it was awful. Bad sound, and just a bit boring. I don't know how you could get such bad sound out of powered speakers. You've hit the nail on the head about cousin Joe who'll do it for $50. Aldi is advertising here in Melbourne a "PA" consisting of 2 powered speakers for $200. Perfect for parties and DJs! Cousin Joe just got cheaper! I think though, a bigger issue, is that its not just "band vs DJ". I think that in a lot of ways the DJs would be saying the same things. Its true that the clubs with live bands have badly declined, but I remember also going to big nightclubs with DJs when I was 18, and they were also packed, and there's less of them now. I think there's generally less of a market for entertainment that isn't "famous" (however dubious that fame might be!) This is probably a product of reality TV which has given us comparatively more "celebrities". I think also todays younger people are just much less likely to go to that sort of environment at all. (Don't I sound old!). In my experience, there's a big trend towards hanging out in small bar/restaurant places which don't have entertainment. If someone wants music, they check it out on youtube. (urk!). That doesn't mean that these guys don't like bands (or DJs) its just that the idea of going out to a loud club every weekend may have less appeal than perhaps it did in previous times. Maybe this is a reflection of the culture, I dunno. Agree with the comments that bands (wedding or club) have to do it well. I've recently been working for a club band that make a real effort to appeal to modern tastes (tracks etc) and they have no shortage of work. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 I think the answer here is just like any other business. If you are a band "in business" you need to provide your customer what they want for what they are willing to pay for it. There are some guys here that probably do a very good job of just that (. I'm thinking Abzurd and Guido for example). OTOH if you consider your music to be "art" and only art then you probably won't do very well (money wise) at being a wedding band. The more I hang out with wedding DJs the more I realize that these guys are businessmen first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kalina2 Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 very hot topic .... Now I am at work, and later I will explain how things work in Russia with the wedding business ... I hope that it will be interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 Looking forward to it Kalina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 OTOH if you consider your music to be "art" and only art then you probably won't do very well (money wise) at being a wedding band. Not every musician is going to be right for every type of live performance and not every type of live performance is going to be right for every type of gig. And that's as it should be, of course. I do think, however, that this primary focus on live music as "art" is a relatively recent phenomenon that has been a double-edged sword. Going back to the days of chamber music and before, musicians have been focused on "playing the hits" for their audiences and even the composers (who only relatively recently started becoming their own performers of their work) wrote for commercial purposes and to please their clients. Whether it was Mozart writing for the Court or Rodgers and Hammerstein trying to fill seats in a Broadway theater. The "I don't care if anybody likes what I do or not---I'll perform my "art" and eek out whatever living I can" business model seems to be mostly a late 20th Century conceit and, while it has almost certainly led to the creation of some great music, has also had the unfortunate side effect of filling the heads of lesser musicians and performers with the idea that playing for themselves first was a GOOD way to approach the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted October 19, 2014 Members Share Posted October 19, 2014 Bands just really have to step it up. There's a gazillion reasons to point to for the problems, but one that I think sums a lot of the problems up pretty well is DJs have stepped up their game massively over the last 30 years while bands are still trying to just do their best to be Led Zeppelin. Giving people a 20th century entertainment model in 2014 is only going to go so far. If live music wants to be competitive with other forms of entertainment in the coming years, it's going to have to take on new forms. I'd agree that often bands make for their own demise. OTOH the expectations of a 2014 crowd isn't practical or often even possible for a live band without tons of very expensive production (making it economically unfeasible). How much recorded music is so produced & pitch fixed that no human could possibly reproduce it that accurately? Yet this is what many youngsters expect when they listen to music (be it live or recorded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted October 19, 2014 Members Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'd agree that often bands make for their own demise. OTOH the expectations of a 2014 crowd isn't practical or often even possible for a live band without tons of very expensive production (making it economically unfeasible). How much recorded music is so produced & pitch fixed that no human could possibly reproduce it that accurately? Yet this is what many youngsters expect when they listen to music (be it live or recorded). Eh, i don't buy that. Danceability (which is what most people are looking for) is less about pitch and more about having a really solid rhythm section and tight timing overall. No, you can't get it perfect, but if you're good, you can get close enough for most people. You need a great band and you need to be able to arrange the songs for the people you have. Trouble is - most wedding bands that I've seen can't do that. They might have one or two members who can pull off their respective parts, but the whole band isn't there. I don't know how many times I've seen wedding bands either live or on youtube where the bass player is inconsistent, or the drummer is lagging and/or playing the wrong patterns, or the guitar player isn't tight, or the keyboard player is using the worst possible general midi horn patch he can find. A really good band doesn't need much in the way of trickery to get people dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 19, 2014 Members Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'd agree that often bands make for their own demise. OTOH the expectations of a 2014 crowd isn't practical or often even possible for a live band without tons of very expensive production (making it economically unfeasible). How much recorded music is so produced & pitch fixed that no human could possibly reproduce it that accurately? Yet this is what many youngsters expect when they listen to music (be it live or recorded). Not as much as you might think. What people want is a good dance beat and a familiar melody and lyric. They want to be entertained. And "youngsters" are probably the most flexible with how they are entertained. In this modern age of endless remixes and mashups, they aren't as tied to the concept of things needing to sound "just like the record" as their parents are. There often IS no "official version" of a song anymore. . Many of our biggest successes of the night are songs that we've twisted and mangled for various reasons, including the fact that we are sometimes trying to work around not having the necessary instrumentation. But all of that is fine if what you are doing is still entertaining the people in the manner they want to be entertained. The song choices and arrangements are all just part of the toolkit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kalina2 Posted November 6, 2014 Members Share Posted November 6, 2014 Guys, forgive me for what I made you wait long promised ... these days was a lot of work, including two weddings .... Russia has in the past played at weddings live bands to book the wedding live command it was prestigious, but then came a drum machine and drummers began gradually die out, then his word said sequencers and work lost bass players ..... economy her mother .... Now working on weddings karaoke singers ..... with a laptop ... LOL Live bands for weddings have not disappeared, but they became very small and the price for their work is very highOccasionally, we're going to play group, but it was a treat for yourself ..... Each of us has a contract with the owners of bars where you sing karaoke singer, my wife and I also sing in a restaurant, sometimes doing sound for live bands on weddings ..... DJs. rarity at weddings, people want to hear and see live voice actor .... sing pop music and everything that is asked to sing .... before the wedding lasted 2-3 days, now 2 days is rare, mostly gala evening with 4 11-12 pm to midnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 6, 2014 Members Share Posted November 6, 2014 Making a couple calls tonight. They are interested in a DJ, I'll try to upsell the band. Wish me luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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