Where does everyone stand on stage?

[Opus Antics]

I have a potential issue brewing and I was hoping for some feedback and insight from the BWTB crowd. Not quite a year ago we went from a 4-piece to a 5-piece by adding a keyboardist. Our normal stage configuration was vocalist front center, guitar and vocalist to her right, bass and vocalist to her left, and drums and keys staggered behind. We put the mobile people up front with room to move around (with the expectation that they would move around) and the static people in back.

 

This made sense in most venues because most places we play don't give us enough room to have more than 3 across. In some venues, if you squeeze everyone together, you can get 4 across in front. But then everyone is smushed and has to be careful about moving around so as not to knock into each other, each other's instruments or mic stands.

 

This hasn't been a problem, at least not visible, until recently. The keyboardist has started setting up 4 across as frequently as possible, even if it means we are all smushed up and can't move. It's being fueled by the keyboardist's friends who encourage more predominant positioning and have recently started commenting negatively on posted pictures if the keyboardist isn't featured enough.

 

This is starting to create some tension.

 

As the defacto band leader I'd like to head this off before it starts to grow into a problem. So my question is, how do you all handle setup? Do you try to get as many people in front as you can fit? Do you stagger with people in the back? Is this nothing more than band drama and everyone needs to take a chill pill and relax? Are we disrespecting the keyboardist? I've never had stage positioning be a problem before but I think it has become one here.

[StratGuy22]

4 across the front. Keys, singer/guitar, singer/guitar, bass I like being on stage right because then my guitar neck is never banging into the FOH in tight places. We usually have a decent sized stage. One venue has an 8x12 sized stage. We all fit on there. The order was reversed and the keys were actually on the ground and she played them with the keys sideways.

[wades_keys]

As a bass player, I much prefer to be on the snare side of the kit, for various musical reasons. Other than that, don't really have a dog in the hunt on this one. Keys can be a pain for sure. But be honest: who fronts the band, the keys or the vocalist? Put the frontman out FRONT. Keys are secondary. If they are in the way, they need to be out of the way. Seems to me the real issue is you've got a lack of unity in the presentation and possibly in the attitudes of individual members. Get them to buy into the band concept. Rally around the frontman. Every good band has one. Does yours?????

 

My rule of thumb overall is this: "Is this a hill worth dying on?". If it's a deal breaker, be prepared to die on the hill. If it isn't: well.....only you know the dispositions of your band members and how they will respond to "criticism" or being "told what to do".

[RoadRanger]

Would your bass player be willing to move back? I know when I'm playing bass I prefer to be in the back on the drummer's high-hat side anyways. I don't think turning the keyboard player sideways saves any space though it can look better - but the norm is the keyboard player facing towards stage left so folks can see their right hand.

[Tullsterx]

Keys/Vocalist: front, stage left. Guitar: back, stage left/center (right next to the drummer). Bass: back, stage right. Singers(3): front, stage center.

 

And we've never, since Jan 2013, deviated from that arrangement. And it really has never been discussed much. Pretty much when I joined the band I just set up where I wanted. At first I was more to the side but it was suggested that I setup more straight across the front, stage left, to leave more space behind me. But, we do communicate about it, and I try to make sure the singers have enough room up front, and they'll let me know if they need more room. But, we've never played on a really small stage. If that came up I would probably move off to the side. The bass player is usually roaming all over the place, even off stage, and the guitarist comes out front when he has a solo. And the singers are usually roaming all over the place too. So, a lot of the time it's just me (keys) the drummer and the guitarist on stage anyway.

[Vito Corleone]

As a keyboard player, I've traditionally set up on a riser next to the drummer and I've always preferred that setup. Because of the nature of this particular band however, I set up across the front with the bass player and the two singers and we put the guitarist up on a riser in the back. If we have a stage that's more deep and narrow, I'll pull back so the girls have more room up front. Ideally, I like to stagger the front line a bit with the girls out front and the bass player and I set back a foot or so, but we rarely get stages that allow us that much space.

 

A lot of it depends on the stages of course, but it makes no sense to smoosh everyone up front and leave a bunch of space in the back. Especially if you have people up front who move while they perform and that's part of the show. Sounds to me like your keyboard player needs to check the ego a bit and move back. If it's a visual thing (nobody likes to be hidden when they are on stage) consider a riser for him so he can be seen above the front line.

[tim_7string]

We are, from left to right (audience view): Lead Guitar/Vocals, Lead Vocals/Rhythm Guitar (me), Bass Guitar/Vocals and (in back) Drums. No keyboards in this group, but I did switch off on guitar and keyboards a couple of years ago. I was set up in the middle and I didn't like the lack of space (or hiding the drummer) due to the location of my keyboard stand.

 

When I was primarily a keyboardist many years ago, I set up several different ways. Usually up front off to the side on either Stage Left or Stage Right. I have played on the floor, played on a small area above a doorway (large enough to accommodate my keyboard stand) and set up ala Ray Manzarek (facing the drummer on Stage Right. I set up wherever I needed to so we all had some space to move.

 

I would have a discussion with the keyboardist and explain your concerns about movement/static as the reason why you would prefer to place him in the back next to the drums. A band is greater than the sum of the parts and everyone needs to fit in for whatever reason. Let him know you are just looking to improve the band and if people can't move up there when they *should* be moving, it's going to look awkward.

[wesg]

Okay, I've been trying to use the "upload image" option in here for three quarters of an hour no avail.

 

Here is an attachment from my gallery. Maybe this will work.

[WynnD]

I prefer that omni-directional sound sources be at the outsides of the band. (Leslies, bass. Exception is drums.) And directional sources be beside the drums. (Guitars, piano amps...) As a keyboard, bass and trumpet player, I'm a side man and expect to be towards the back. Beside the drums is OK. (Unless the drummer is LOUD!) There have been lots of time where turning the keys a bit helps with a lack of space.

[StratGuy22]

?

[Iamthesky]

As a keyboard player, I'm accustomed to the two facts of life that 1) No-one can see me; and 2) No-one can hear me. OK, that's an exaggeration most of the time, although there was this one time I had to set up directly behind the mains.

 

If he wants to be up front and get all the chicks, he should have learned to play guitar instead. Or sing lead vocals on at least 40% of the songs while playing keys. smiley-lol

[wesg]

There is no need to hide at the back, Iamthesky. Stand like me, front line, in profile. I am in a great position to get all the chicks, except for the wife in the front row chasing them all away!

 

BTW, I am the small-venue sound guy for my band, so the audience not only has to see me, they have to hear me, too!

 

Wes

[TIMKEYS]

On a small stage ,, where you don't have a bunch of depth, typically its best to set keys 90 degrees to the backline for a smaller footprint with the guitar necks pointing so they don't end up in his face.

[TrickyBoy]

We set up the same every show. I set up stage left. I like that best because, as the band leader, I can turn back to the drummer on a small stage without the neck of my guitar being an issue. As for your original post. Wade is right on the money. People watch the front man, so that's the person that needs to be highlighted. As a stationary player, he needs to be the first one to move back. If he wants to be more prominent, tell him to buy himself a riser.

[SpaceNorman]

When I'm working with a 4 piece - and space isn't an issue - I prefer to set up stage left, more or less even with the front line - with my rig rotated at a 45 degree angle so that if I turn my head a little left - I'm looking out at the crowd but can turn my head a little to the right and see my bandmates.

 

However, these days - I work with an eight piece and space is ALWAYS an issue. These days, I set up stage right, and even with the drummer and facing straight out. The bass and guitar amps get placed stage left next to the drummer. Our vocalist goes front and center ... the guitar player and bass player stand to her left ... the horns (sax, trombone and trumpet) are on her right ... directly in front of me. Sure ... I'd love to be more visible in the setup - but it's not a big deal. I play seated .. and even at my most animated, my contribution to our show's visuals is a fraction of that which the horn section brings. They make the best of the freedom that their instruments afford them - and have a whole night worth of cheesy line dance moves that they've worked out. They're all wireless ... so in addition to their "dancing in a phone booth" moves on stage, they regularly make their way out into the crowd as well. As a band, we're pretty good about making sure that everybody gets their opportunities to shine - so nobody cops a 'tude about clamoring to be seen.

[SpaceNorman]

...This hasn't been a problem' date=' at least not visible, until recently.... The keyboardist has started ... It's being fueled by the keyboardist's friends who encourage...[/quote']

 

On a side note - I absolutely hate issues that arise when a band member starts "taking direction" from their wives, girlfriends, friends and/or family - and then starts making changes without discussing it with the rest of the band. A wise band leader will recognize when this sort of behavior is becoming an issue and address it early. We're ALL influenced by feedback from non-band members who are close to us - but band members who unilaterally make changes that affect the rest of the band without first discussing it - have to be challenged about taking sort of approach.

[Drummer44]

 

This hasn't been a problem, at least not visible, until recently. The keyboardist has started setting up 4 across as frequently as possible, even if it means we are all smushed up and can't move. It's being fueled by the keyboardist's friends who encourage more predominant positioning and have recently started commenting negatively on posted pictures if the keyboardist isn't featured enough.

 

This is starting to create some tension.

 

 

 

Drums back right, keys back left. In the front, bass left, guitars center and right, everybody sings.

 

If visibility is the main issue, perhaps a riser for keys?

 

-D44

[nchangin]

Fire the keyboard player? I mean come on I'm a drummer would love to be center stage, but it's never going to happen. I just don't see a keyboard player as the main attraction unless they are Beethoven or Elton. Sounds to me like pack leader (band leader) needs to put big foot in place where normally doesn't belong?

[StratGuy22]

This.

[wheresgrant3]

Does he sing? As a stationary keyboard player I'm more than happy to hang back and let the leads do their thing. If he wants to join the show tell him to buy a keytar.

 

But in all honesty I like being along the back line...

[wheresgrant3]

Does he sing? As a stationary keyboard player I'm more than happy to hang back and let the leads do their thing. If he wants to join the show tell him to buy a keytar.

 

But in all honesty I like being along the back line...

[Iamthesky]

There is no need to hide at the back' date=' Iamthesky. Stand like me, front line, in profile.[/quote']

That's easier than it sounds... especially if there's an opening band, I prefer to set up and power up at the start of the night so the Moog has time to warm up, which means giving the other band room to play in front of the rig.

 

I set up stage left, facing the drummer when playing the main stack. The bass player is downstage of me; that lets us share the same monitor mix, as we usually have similar requirements.

 

 

 

(The rig isn't exactly like that now; I'm rackmounting the mixer and effects and cleaning up the cables as a result, but the instrument locations are the same.)

[SeniorBlues]

There's no formula, only guidelines.

 

Based on instrument sales and observation, most band repertoires are guitar-centric, even if the guy doesn't sing, so he's up front.

If everyone is focused on the front singer, why is the bass player in the front line? Unless he's an important singer, shouldn't he be back with the drums?

If the keyboard player is there to "fill out the sound" and little else, he's in back, but there are plenty of repertoires that feature keys players both musically and as a director. Then he needs to set up where everyone can see him on stage and off. A comment was made about him needing to be Elton John. What surprises me is why most bands with decent keys players don't feature the chair more often. If you're going to hide him musically, of course you're going to hide him on stage too.

[FormerlyBassred]

As a bass player, I don't mind hanging back if I'm not singing. Last cover band I was in I was lead vocals & bass, so I was front-center. I'm not really particular about being on the snare side. I can lock in with the drummer from anywhere. My amp used to live directly stage right of the drumset, with the PA gear directly stage right of that (did I mention I mixed our sound and ran lights, too?!)

 

As a guitar player, I can hang back (again, if I'm not singing a whole lot) but I sing harmonies on 95% of our stuff, and our sound is reliant on the 3-part harmonies we do, so I'm stage right at the front line. Our singer gets Center/front and the other guitarist is Stage left/front even though he really doesn't sing much. Our bass player tucks in on the right between the stage left guitar player and back a bit towards the drumset and our auxilary guy (mando and banjo) tucks in to my left and back a bit.

 

With regards to the friends and wives making the call.. I had a harp player years ago who would always tell me that "My wife/friend/fellow harp player/anyone can't hear the harmonica, can I come up a bit?" - and so, being much younger than he (and smarter, and definitely 2nd in line for command of that band) I would go out with my wireless and jam a song our two around all areas of the room. I seriously think that his family and friends must be half deaf, because he was always cutting through and on top of the mix. I would go back to the board and give him a 'phantom turn' and tell him I turned it up, but I didn't really change anything. I will not let friends and family and their opinion drive how I mix a band. Especially not when my own ears have heard the mix they've heard but had no trouble hearing what they say they aren't hearing... I would play him video footage of shows where you could hear the harmonica amazingly well, and he refused to agree that he was loud enough... One show (his last with us) he brought two little amps instead of one and stated that he was tired of being buried every night. I had an entire PA to setup, along with my own bass rig, and I said 'Cool, so you've solved the problem' and set up everything except his amp mic. When he asked me where the mic was, I told him 'You aren't getting a mic, you brought a second amp and apparently I don't know how to mix you loud enough, so you've solved the problem yourself' and went on doing all the work of setting up by myself... As I started to wrap up the setup and ring in the monitors I look up and he had taken all of his gear and left without saying anything to anyone else in the band. He quit, just like that. I guess he thought two amps PLUS the mic to the PA that was ALWAYS there would solve the issue...

 

The guy with the Marshall Half-stack in that band, now I always had to make sure you could hear him. Seriously. The harp players little Champ would eat up his stage volume every time because he was well aware that our blend was important - and that we had mics on everything and the PA could do a better job mixing for the room. The other guitar players little 18 watt buddha was always too loud (and subsequently not usually really on through the PA..) I worked really hard to get them to the point where they'd give themselves enough volume for just their stage position/mix and then let the monitors and FOH carry everything else volume-wise... Besides the harp players friends, we always got compliments on our sound, though!

[wesg]

Stage volume is a funny thing. My guitar player plays his 50W Marshall from a feet behind him. We mic it, but it doesn't usually get in the PA.......except for my monitor. He's on the other side of the stage, and I have an organ between him and I. For some reason, I can't hear him on the quiet songs unless I put him in my monitor mix.

 

I wonder if that's a first?

 

As for harp players....a lot of them drive me crazy. There are some good ones out there, but the ones who insist on playing non-stop all night long drive me crazy. I usually give up playing organ with somebody like that on stage and just tinkle the ivories.