Sucked into the PA buying vortex - help!

[Comoxsam]

Hello,

 

First post here and I'm a bit of a noob so go easy on me. About 4 months ago I started researching PA gear as my band is looking to upgrade. I've been learning a lot by reading reviews, etc. but I'm getting to the point now where I'm thoroughly confused and maybe suffering from paralysis by analysis. I realize I'm probably swimming in a much smaller pond than many of you but there seems to be a lot of smart people here and I figured I would ask some questions.

 

We are a 5 man band with 3 vox, 2 guitar, bass, and drums. Our sound is classic rockish and we do originals and covers. Our gigs (indoor and outdoor) range from about 50-150 people. We've been using an old Yamaha EMX860 box-style powered mixer for vocals only up to this point. It's been doing a decent job but I would like to start miking instruments (drums, guitar, not sure about bass), and providing a better full range sound.

 

1. Speakers - I've decided to go the active route and decided on the Yorkville Elite series. I would like to stick with all the same brand if possible. I found a decent deal and recently purchased a Yorkville LS801P sub. I was a little shocked at the size and volume this thing puts out. I was testing it out in the house the other day and I'm convinced that if I left it on and walked away the house would disintegrate within a day or so. We aren't stupid loud and I'm hoping that this thing isn't overkill. I'm currently looking for a pair of EF500P's and have a few questions regarding this set up.

 

a) Will only one sub work well with two of these EF500P's?

b) I read a lot of people say that 12" tops work better with a sub than 15" tops and a sub. Are these speakers a good combo or can I do better with 12" tops? Any recommendations?

c) Do I need a crossover or any other processor with this set-up or can I just use the filters on the speakers and get good results?

d) I've heard the EF500P's described as "aggressive". Are these the type of speakers that need to be really pumping to sound good? Do I need something smaller for our smaller gigs?

e) What kind of life can I expect out of powered speakers? I'm afraid of buying used. Local Long and McQuade sells used rental units and prices them based on time in service despite looking like they've been dropped off a truck (several times).

 

I guess that's it for now. I'll save the mixer questions for later.

 

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

[Dookietwo]

1 Ls801p with 2 ef500p tops is a good match. I ran 2 tops to 1 sub for a long time. ( My system was 2 tops aside with 2 subs centered ) The pair of ef500p tops that I still have from 2006 are still going strong. Just watch the knobs on the back as they do stick out and can be hit during transport. I set my subs with all 3 knobs in the back straight up and used the 100hz cut on the tops to get me started in most rooms. Never used an external crossover. Just dropped 80hz just few dbs in the sub. I've done everything from Blue grass on up with the ef500p tops and liked the sound of them. Remember what ever you purchase look at the cost over time. A pair of new ef500p tops may seem like a lot but if you look at that over a 10 year period they are well worth it.

[monthlymixcd]

First...Welcome to the forum!

 

Second... Yorkville and Long and McQuade? You're obviously in Canada.

 

Q-a: Dookietwo pretty much nailed it... that one sub is more than adequate to use by itself with a pair of almost all of the powered tops in that class.

Q-b: While a pair of active 12"s might sound a little sweeter than a pair of 15"s (12"s are typically smoother at the internal xover point), there are also advantages to having 15"s. For starters, there are gigs where you might get by with just tops and not need to bring the sub, but only if your tops are 15"s. A pair of 12"s probably won't carry bass or the kick very well by themselves.

Q-c: If using that sub and a pair of Yorkie tops, you should be just fine with the internal xovers... they're made to work together.

Q-d: One man's "aggressive" is another man's "harsh"... and I've never found the ef500p to be either. 15"s are 15"s, though... more "rock" sounding than 12"s, typically...

Q-e: Yorkville has a great warranty. Is Long and McQuade selling their rental stock with "as new" warranties? Typically, you'll think about upgrading powered cabs in this class before you have to worry about them wearing out.

 

Always have scalability in mind as you build your new PA. Buy gear that will hold its value at resale, or buy good condition used gear that has already taken that "drive off the lot" depreciation hit to ensure that you won't take too much of a hit if you sell it. And finally, don't over complicate things... use your energy making good music instead of worrying about xover frequencies, etc. Buy gear that is easy to setup, use, and strike... you'll be much happier in the end.

 

[Tomm Williams]

The sound of any speaker can only be determined by the listener. You could have two people give very different opinions on the "sound" of any speaker. Listen to them for yourself.

[Bobby1Note]

Hello,

 

First post here and I'm a bit of a noob so go easy on me. About 4 months ago I started researching PA gear as my band is looking to upgrade. I've been learning a lot by reading reviews, etc. but I'm getting to the point now where I'm thoroughly confused and maybe suffering from paralysis by analysis. I realize I'm probably swimming in a much smaller pond than many of you but there seems to be a lot of smart people here and I figured I would ask some questions.

 

We are a 5 man band with 3 vox, 2 guitar, bass, and drums. Our sound is classic rockish and we do originals and covers. Our gigs (indoor and outdoor) range from about 50-150 people. We've been using an old Yamaha EMX860 box-style powered mixer for vocals only up to this point. It's been doing a decent job but I would like to start miking instruments (drums, guitar, not sure about bass), and providing a better full range sound.

 

1. Speakers - I've decided to go the active route and decided on the Yorkville Elite series. I would like to stick with all the same brand if possible. I found a decent deal and recently purchased a Yorkville LS801P sub. I was a little shocked at the size and volume this thing puts out. I was testing it out in the house the other day and I'm convinced that if I left it on and walked away the house would disintegrate within a day or so. We aren't stupid loud and I'm hoping that this thing isn't overkill. I'm currently looking for a pair of EF500P's and have a few questions regarding this set up.

 

a) Will only one sub work well with two of these EF500P's?

b) I read a lot of people say that 12" tops work better with a sub than 15" tops and a sub. Are these speakers a good combo or can I do better with 12" tops? Any recommendations?

c) Do I need a crossover or any other processor with this set-up or can I just use the filters on the speakers and get good results?

d) I've heard the EF500P's described as "aggressive". Are these the type of speakers that need to be really pumping to sound good? Do I need something smaller for our smaller gigs?

e) What kind of life can I expect out of powered speakers? I'm afraid of buying used. Local Long and McQuade sells used rental units and prices them based on time in service despite looking like they've been dropped off a truck (several times).

 

I guess that's it for now. I'll save the mixer questions for later.

 

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

I've got EF500's and LS801P's too, and for the size of gigs you're doing, they'll be idling most of the time.

 

In my experience, the EF500's(2" throat) can sound a bit aggressive if you're up close, so you gotta get 'em up high, and a touch of EQ. DookieTwo is "the" man to talk to about EQ'ing these boxes. At 80+ lbs per box though, you'll need some quality heavy-duty stands, and a helper.

 

re the LS801P; If I run a pair of LS720P's to the point of occasionally peaking the output LED (flicker on transients), that pretty well matches my LS801P's set to 1/8th power. That box provides some SERIOUS thump, and you'll be fine with a single sub. It also gives you plenty of "voicing" options.

 

The EF500's and LS801P's are a match made in heaven. Enjoy, and welcome to the forum. Stick around and let us know how you like your boxes.

[Shaster]

As the folks above.... Two Ef500P's and one LS801P should handle all of your current gigs no problem. Weight aside, that's a very nice rig.

 

I also find that taming a somewhat aggresive box is often easier than taking an overly smooth box and making it aggresive. Anyway, I don't feel that the EF500P's are aggresive - they just aren't scooped out like so many current powered speakers.

 

I often see used EF500P's at L&M for between $600 to $700 a box. Depending on their shape and whether you can extend the three month warranty to a year or more (it will depend...) then used might be an option. For that matter I just saw used U15P's, one for $800 the others for $1000 a piece. I think though for your purposes, the EF500P's would be better than the U15P's. One note, if you're buying new, then you should maybe A/B the Parasource boxes with an EF500P - that is if you don't mind plastic.

 

Slightly OT - I've been doing a Saturday afternoon house gig with my R&B, Classic Rock band, with an LS800P. The club actually took it out of service and bought the DJ's another sub, because the nearby hotel was complaining about the bass. They thump, but in a nice sounding way.

 

EDIT - I originally put Paraline but I meant the "conventional" speaker line, the Parasource boxes.

[abzurd]

I know the people that own them love them, but IMO, the EF500P may not be the box for you. They are beamy, aggressive out of the gate, and heavy and don't have the best off axis response in the world, which may be desirable, but often with a 1 box per side setup you want rather wide coverage. If you want to stay with Yorkville, at half the weight and 20 more degrees of horizontal coverage looked at the new NX55P-2. You'll save a few bones too.

[Comoxsam]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome as well as the replies. It's good to hear that I'm on the right track so far....

 

I believe I'm going to try and buy some used EF500P's as soon as I can find some.

 

My next questions are regarding mixers and this is where I'm really hung up.

 

I'm kind of drooling over some of the small digital mixers like the Mackie DL1608 and the Presonus SL16.0.2. I'm envious of the people who get to play with this stuff on a regular basis but I'm concerned that our band doesn't gig frequently enough to justify buying one of these. It seems like the digital mixer world is about to explode I'm afraid I'll get left in the dust.

 

Dookietwo your quote of "When you consider the price over 10 years..." resonates with me for sure and is precisely why I'm hesitant about some of these digital mixers. Can you guys see these things being around in 10 years? Tough question to answer but I certainly don't expect my Ipad to be around in ten years. That kind of makes me lean towards the Presonus models however I feel like the Mackie would be a better fit for me and I do like the multiple EQ's however I'm not sure how important that is.

 

I'm also finding it concerning about all the updating required to keep these things going and they both seem have quite a few bugs still. I'm wondering if I should wait until new Behringer X18 comes out. Sounds like they are trying to address some of the things missing and needed on the DL1608. Wow what a game to play for someone like me who tends to WAAAY over analyze.

 

I just love the idea of remote mixing and not having to run back and forth b.ut the realist in me thinks that an analogue board might be the smarter choice long term.

[RoadRanger]

Yeah, the MI digital mixers get pretty out-of-date after 5 years but IMO worth that hassle to not have to carry around a couple racks full of outboard. Also if you don't already own that outboard it's still cheaper to buy a digital board vs putting together the racks. Personally I'd only consider analog for an install these days (where you don't have to hump it around and where you might have less experienced folks running it).

[modulusman]

Roadranger I sent you a PM last week.

[Al Poulin]

Personally, the EF500Ps are not my favorite speaker sound quality wise. They are loud, in your face and reliable but there are better sounding + lighter solutions these days that will keep up with a single 801P and sound better doing it. If you want to stay with Yorkville, I would recommend you rent a pair of Parasource 12Ps and try them out with the 801P. The Parasource are lighter, have more modern processing and sound much smoother and sweeter out of the box. Just a suggestion. I reviewed them last month and they are VERY impressive for a 12" box. Plenty of headroom too.

 

 

 

Al

[Bobby1Note]

Al and Sean (Abzurd), raised some very good points. The EF500P is a 60-degree box with a 2" throat. They "cut" like crazy, which is great outdoors, or for deep noisy rooms, but up close (smaller room), they really need taming.

 

The 60 degree dispersion can be great if you're looking to focus max SPL at the dance-floor. These boxes however, do array horizontally quite well.(120 degrees for two, 180 degrees with a three box cluster). The boxes also have flat tops, so for long throw requirements, you can run run two per side, and place one EF500P over the other, upside down, which places the HF horns close together. (quasi D'Appolito arrangement)

 

Digital mixer; if I were shopping today, I'd be taking a long hard look at the A&H Qu-16 or Qu-24.

[RoadRanger]

Roadranger I sent you a PM last week.

And I replied to it, check your inbox.

EDIT> Looks like it got "stuck", I was able to "recover" it and send it on it's way (I think) - forum software!

[modulusman]

And I replied to it, check your inbox.

EDIT> Looks like it got "stuck", I was able to "recover" it and send it on it's way (I think) - forum software!

I got it thanks for the Reply.

[Dookietwo]

I find nothing wrong with the EF500p in small rooms or with different music type. They require no more or less eq than any other powered boxes I own. I currently have 4 EV SXA250s. 2 Peavey PV15pm. 2 Yorkville EF500p, 2 Yamaha MS400's. 10 powered tops total. A bunch of powered subs also. As far as horn coverage as we all know it depends on frequency. In average 150 to 200 people rooms they work fine in singles. In rooms wider than deep once in a great while I'll add a ms400 or an ev sxa250 as a far side fill but it depends on the gig type and dance floor location. Nothing anyone else would do in rooms such as these. In the picture ( if it loads ) you'll see the ef500p and a EVsxa250 a side as side fill. Back and power shaded about 6dbs made a very seamless blend between the speakers. Band was all in ears with no amps on stage. Only the drums put out any spl. Worked great. The yamaha MS400's are front fill at about 10dbs down in level from the Yorkvilles just for a slight fill in front. This setup was required as there was no amps on stage to give a full sound up close.

[abzurd]

I find nothing wrong with the EF500p in small rooms or with different music type. They require no more or less eq than any other powered boxes I own. I currently have 4 EV SXA250s. 2 Peavey PV15pm. 2 Yorkville EF500p' date=' 2 Yamaha MS400's. 10 powered tops total. A bunch of powered subs also. As far as horn coverage as we all know it depends on frequency. In average 150 to 200 people rooms they work fine in singles. In rooms wider than deep once in a great while I'll add a ms400 or an ev sxa250 as a far side fill but it depends on the gig type and dance floor location. Nothing anyone else would do in rooms such as these. In the picture ( if it loads ) you'll see the ef500p and a EVsxa250 a side as side fill. Back and power shaded about 6dbs made a very seamless blend between the speakers. Band was all in ears with no amps on stage. Only the drums put out any spl. Worked great. The yamaha MS400's are front fill at about 10dbs down in level from the Yorkvilles just for a slight fill in front. This setup was required as there was no amps on stage to give a full sound up close. [img']http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/filedata/fetch?filedataid=98114&type=large[/img]

 

I know it's tough to be objective when you own the gear being questioned and they are fine boxes, but would you honestly choose them over anything else at the same price or less for what the Op has specified? If so, great. I just think given the age of the speaker, the considerable weight, and the size venue, it may not be the best overall box.

 

To the OP, are you ever going to want to stand mount these yourself? If so you better be one strong dude. Even setting them up in your garage or yard to play around with them is going to be challenging. There are other Yorkville boxes that are 1/2 the weight, and purport to be louder. It just seems prudent to at least consider.

 

That said, they must be popular enough that Yorkville hasn't felt the need to release an update. These boxes first hit the market in Spring of 2002 and were pretty much the first affordable powered box with any real grunt to them.

[Bobby1Note]

 

I know it's tough to be objective when you own the gear being questioned and they are fine boxes, but would you honestly choose them over anything else at the same price or less for what the Op has specified? If so, great. I just think given the age of the speaker, the considerable weight, and the size venue, it may not be the best overall box.

 

To the OP, are you ever going to want to stand mount these yourself? If so you better be one strong dude. Even setting them up in your garage or yard to play around with them is going to be challenging. There are other Yorkville boxes that are 1/2 the weight, and purport to be louder. It just seems prudent to at least consider.

 

That said, they must be popular enough that Yorkville hasn't felt the need to release an update. These boxes first hit the market in Spring of 2002 and were pretty much the first affordable powered box with any real grunt to them.

 

What would "age" have to do with anything, other than the fact that some of the "newer" boxes "might" be lighter in weight? Take Dookies' EV SxA250 for example,,, they're "old" and discontinued,,, and for what? Another victim to the "watt rating" wars? Because it doesn't have a giga-watt rating, they "kill" the line? It's frikken ridiculous IMO. The SxA is one of the smoothest sounding 15" boxes I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.

 

The EF500's are bloody heavy,,,, no argument there, but as you said, there's loads of "grunt" in these boxes, and they're bullet-proof. They array well horizontally, and they (ahem) "throw" like crazy.

 

Are some of the newer Yorkies "better"? Maybe. The multi-band limiting thing is cool, and the output of the ParaLine (and maybe ParaSource) boxes can be eye-opening. They're also not cheap, and I'd be surprised if the OP can find them "used" as he stated earlier.

[Shaster]

I've run 60 degree voxes (including EF500P's) all over the place. Never had a problem, except in the very larges of spaces, where I suspect I would have had a problem anyway. If we're talking the OP's sized rooms I don't think it's an issue. The EP's sound good and are suited for vocals, but again they don't have that scooped mid, sizzle high sound - which I don't like for live music anyway. The only issue with EF500P's IMHO is that they are heavy.

 

Being in Canada, this is all moot. The OP can go try, rent or even buy a pair. If they don't work, he can return them within 30 days. there will be a restocking fee if he finances, otherwise, probably not.

 

Just for the OP's edification, I would still recommend he A/B a Parasource box with the EF500P's. Of course they'll be twice the price as used EF's.

[Dookietwo]

 

I know it's tough to be objective when you own the gear being questioned and they are fine boxes, but would you honestly choose them over anything else at the same price or less for what the Op has specified? If so, great. I just think given the age of the speaker, the considerable weight, and the size venue, it may not be the best overall box.

 

To the OP, are you ever going to want to stand mount these yourself? If so you better be one strong dude. Even setting them up in your garage or yard to play around with them is going to be challenging. There are other Yorkville boxes that are 1/2 the weight, and purport to be louder. It just seems prudent to at least consider.

 

That said, they must be popular enough that Yorkville hasn't felt the need to release an update. These boxes first hit the market in Spring of 2002 and were pretty much the first affordable powered box with any real grunt to them.

 

The OP has 1 LS801p sub and wanted to know if the EF500p tops are a good match. Yes they are. Set the 3 knobs on the back of the sub straight up. Put on the 100hz cut on the EF500p tops and have their input level straight up. On an eq pull about 4dbs in the 250-480hz range and your ready to get started. As you say they last and last. My first set I purchased in 2004 and the 2nd set in 2006. My 2nd set I still have and are going strong 8 years later. Countless shows inside/out. The first set is still out there with "gulp" a dj pounding them every weekend. I still regret selling my first set but I found I didn't run 2 a side enough to have 2 sets with one set just sitting most of the time. If I had to start over I'd still by another pair. They make money.

[Comoxsam]

Once again thank you for all the great advice and replies.

 

I realize everyone has a different opinion and its great to hear them. I am on the hunt for some mains but the used market in my area is pretty much non-existant other than L+M rentals which look very abused. There are some used EF500p's and some E15's for sale semi-locally. By "semi-local" I mean a 6-10 hour round trip including $150 in ferry rides. I'm hoping to piggy back two trips together so I can happen to pick up some speakers on the way

 

Price is definitely an issue too. I started this journey looking to spend under $1000 total and now I'm considering $1000ea. for speakers!! The reality is, that if I find a decent deal on anything of good quality I'm going to have to seriously consider it.

 

 

[Al Poulin]

For your applications, a pair of Yamaha DXR12s would likely work very well, would cost 750$ per cab, come with a 7 year warranty (or 5 year in Canada I believe) and have a built-in mixer as well as a 100hz hi-pass to use with the 801P sub. Just another option for you. :-) I own 2 pairs of DXR cabs and have only good things to say about them. Only negative is that they NEED covers.

 

Al

[Shaster]

Once again thank you for all the great advice and replies.

 

I realize everyone has a different opinion and its great to hear them. I am on the hunt for some mains but the used market in my area is pretty much non-existant other than L+M rentals which look very abused. There are some used EF500p's and some E15's for sale semi-locally. By "semi-local" I mean a 6-10 hour round trip including $150 in ferry rides. I'm hoping to piggy back two trips together so I can happen to pick up some speakers on the way

 

Price is definitely an issue too. I started this journey looking to spend under $1000 total and now I'm considering $1000ea. for speakers!! The reality is, that if I find a decent deal on anything of good quality I'm going to have to seriously consider it.

 

 

The trick to getting used from L&M is finding something on trade in. Often, folks will have some pretty nice stuff that they trade in, and in the excitement of a new purchase, will let the store take them for cheap. Sometimes even the rentals will be okay. In the last year, I've picked up two "nicely" used LS720P's for $500.00 each - that's half price.

 

BTW and IMHO the E15's are not in the same class as the EF500P's. I've owned E15's, E12's and EX401's - the latter being the best of the bunch. I've also briefly owned the EF500P's and really liked them, but I already had U15's and enough was enough. Nobody has mentioned the older NX55P, which is a good thing. I was on a gig with two NX55P's per one LS801P a side,, and the two 55P's couldn't keep up. I have also found that 15"s with the LS801P work nicely but of course the right 12" would work too.

 

I'm not a Yamaha fan (blasphemy I know) so even though I was using a DXR yesterday, I'll have to stay out of that discussion.

 

You mentioned ferry. Are you on the East or West coast? If you're on the West coast I'm in Vancouver, and am at L&M all the time. I can keep an eye out, or ask them to keep an eye out for used but not abused gear.

 

 

[Al Poulin]

You are probably one of the first people I read of that is not fond of the DXR/DSR cabs. :-) The newer Yamaha speakers have a very hi-fi sound (both DXR and DSR lines), similar to my RCFs actually - in that the voicing could be considered somewhat "mid-scooped". For my applications, which are mostly playback music in small to medium sized rooms, this is great - as they need very little EQ out of the box to sound fantastic playing back CD type music. In a "louder "live music setting however, I can certainly see the appeal of a more "in your face" box such as the EF500P. Since I don't use an external EQ however, I prefer a speaker that is already somewhat pre-eq'd with that hi-fi sound most people like. FWIW, the Parasource do have a bit more mid presence than the DXRs - so you might like them better. Let me know if you get to test them out.

 

Al

[Shaster]

You are probably one of the first people I read of that is not fond of the DXR/DSR cabs. :-) The newer Yamaha speakers have a very hi-fi sound (both DXR and DSR lines), similar to my RCFs actually - in that the voicing could be considered somewhat "mid-scooped". For my applications, which are mostly playback music in small to medium sized rooms, this is great - as they need very little EQ out of the box to sound fantastic playing back CD type music. In a "louder "live music setting however, I can certainly see the appeal of a more "in your face" box such as the EF500P. Since I don't use an external EQ however, I prefer a speaker that is already somewhat pre-eq'd with that hi-fi sound most people like. FWIW, the Parasource do have a bit more mid presence than the DXRs - so you might like them better. Let me know if you get to test them out.

 

Al

 

I know I'm the odd man out in regards to the Yamahas, guess I'm just funny that way. But you're right, one of the things I don't like about the Yammies is how scooped they are. But even with that, the DXR's also seem to have a mid bump or presence that I don't like as well. I tell ya, there's just no pleasing me!

 

I do know a DJ that loves his DSR's, and we gave them quite a work out a while back, but I haven't learned to love them yet. Maybe I need to lay my hands on a pair and use them for a while.

 

 

[monthlymixcd]

To the OP - not being in close proximity to a retailer IS a challenge... sorta like needing to buy online sight-unseen/sound-unheard all the time. I'll concur with everyone else that the EF500Ps are directional... and I've posted in other threads how I think the LS801Ps are as well (at least where the sweet spot for the chest-thump is). If you're looking for a system that can throw and/or do long rooms without breaking a sweat... you're on the right track. If you need close-range coverage you should be looking at other boxes.