How many of you guise have a heart for the Lord?

[redprince]

 

this is pretty much what I was going to say, only better said dude, did you read past the first 9 words? "Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and James Madison were all atheists or deists."

 

 

He said that the Declaration of Independence was conceived by an atheist, meaning Jefferson. And why are atheists and deists put together as if they are the same thing? They are opposites. The fact that so many of our founding fathers are deists explains why religion is so central to our nation.

[AnderMocs]

Good to see Redprince has already refuted your nonsense. Nice try though.

"Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man"
-Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity ever been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both; superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-James Madison

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
-Ben Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
-John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."
-John Adams

[AnderMocs]

 

He said that the Declaration of Independence was conceived by an atheist, meaning Jefferson. And why are atheists and deists put together as if they are the same thing? They are opposites. The fact that so many of our founding fathers are deists explains why religion is so central to our nation.

 

 

Atheists and Deists get thrown together while refuting organized religion. If we want to talk creation of the earth, then they are split. All deists believe is that a supreme being created the earth. Nothing more, there is no religion in their beliefs.

 

Religion is not central to our nation. Separation of church and state is supposed to ensure that a religion can not hijack the government. Freedom of religion ensures that people have the freedom have to belief whatever they want.

[RoboPimp]

FREE MASONS FTW!!!!

[Bobby D]

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine


I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
Thomas Paine


The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine


When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon.
Thomas Paine




boo-yah........Thomas Paine in the house

[Crxsh]

BTW, there are such a thing as conservative atheists: they're called libertarians

 

Bob Barr, the '08 Libertarian Presidential Candidate, is a Christian conservative with strong support among evangelicals. He's pro-gun, anti-abortion and his tenure as a congressman was highlighted by the Defense of Marriage Act, which stated that only a man and a woman could be legally married.

 

[AnderMocs]

Crxsh and Ben, we're totally cool. I respect your beliefs. I don't believe the same thing at all, but I respect that you are not part of the group that feels the need to push their beliefs into how I live my life, and I would never do the same to you.

[pbone]

Bob Barr, the '08 Libertarian Presidential Candidate, is a Christian conservative with strong support among evangelicals. He's pro-gun, anti-abortion and his tenure as a congressman was highlighted by the Defense of Marriage Act, which stated that only a man and a woman could be legally married.

Bob Barr is a joke. I don't know a single libertarian who actually takes him seriously. His brand of libertarianism is completely untenable.

[Crxsh]

Thanks Colin.

 

And in the light of all these quotations... let me post this one:

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-Gandhi

 

Amen.

[AnderMocs]

My understanding of libertarianism was that its basically a liberal who has a conservative fiscal policy.

am I way off base?

[Crxsh]

 

My understanding of libertarianism was that its basically a liberal who has a conservative fiscal policy. am I way off base?

 

 

The best definition I know of Libertarianism goes something like... A belief that government should be as small as possible and play only the most minimal role in economic, social and cultural life.

 

Conservative fiscal policy is sort of an understatement.

[RoboPimp]

My understanding of libertarianism was that its basically a liberal who has a conservative fiscal policy. am I way off base?

 

 

pretty much IMO

[AnderMocs]

Thanks Colin. And in the light of all these quotations... let me post this one: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Gandhi Amen.

 

 

Ghandi had some issues, but thats a great quote. Jesus as a person or idea is pretty wonderful IMO. Its the little bit I took away from my Catholic upbringing.

[pbone]

You're talking about mystical horned creatures roasting you on a fire for eternity. ETERNITY.

 

 

This is a bit erroneous. The horned mystical creatures thing aren't really mentioned in the bible. Our idea of "Hell" is shaped more by artists and poets than it is the actual text. I mean, it's good imagery when you want to ridicule your opponent, but otherwise you're not really talking about the Bible.

[redprince]

"Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man" -Thomas Jefferson "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity ever been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both; superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison "Lighthouses are more useful than churches" -Ben Franklin "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it" -John Adams "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed." -John Adams

 

 

Deists, not Christians. And I agree, the world would be better off without organized religion. The idea of religion has destroyed what the bible is about. People think they can confess in a booth to an old pervert, or burn a candle, or give tithe, and be forgiven and then go on and continue living their messed up lives. That's what religion has become today, and that is what Jesus was against in the bible (Pharisees). Religion is not about traditions, and processes, and rituals, its about a relationship with God.

 

 

BTW.

 

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

[John Adams]

 

The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.

[John Adams]

 

Adams was definitely not an atheist.

[ben_allison]

John Adams

 

 

From his inaugural speech:

 

"I feel it to be my duty to add, if a veneration for the religion of a people who profess and call themselves Christians, and a fixed resolution to consider a decent respect for Christianity among the best recommendations for the public service, can enable me in any degree to comply with your wishes, it shall be my strenuous endeavor that this sagacious injunction of the two Houses shall not be without effect."

 

"And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence."

 

It would appear he recognized that belief in God, and to a lesser extent the Christian faith, was important to the vision of America.

[pbone]

The whole founding fathers thing comes up more and more thanks to Glenn Beck it seems, but I really don't give a {censored} about what those guys have to say anymore. They were smart as {censored}, but we're talking pre-Industrial Revolution. The entire global landscape has radically changed in the last 230 years. So the {censored} what if we're not the same country as we were at its inception? That's what countries do: adapt to social and political issues.

 

Also it's pretty much a zero-sum game, we could go all day on quoting Jefferson and Adams and whatever. Let's not, okay?

[redprince]

Atheists and Deists get thrown together while refuting organized religion. If we want to talk creation of the earth, then they are split. All deists believe is that a supreme being created the earth. Nothing more, there is no religion in their beliefs. Religion is not central to our nation. Separation of church and state is supposed to ensure that a religion can not hijack the government. Freedom of religion ensures that people have the freedom have to belief whatever they want.

 

 

Then I have no idea wtf we are arguing about. I never disagreed with this. I know religion is not central to our nation, but it is a part of our history. All I was saying is that they believed in a God and that it reflected in the construction of our nation. Whether we want it now or not, means nothing because it is there in history. I hate organized religion, it has ruined my life in very many ways.

[marchofflames]

BTW, there are such a thing as conservative atheists: they're called libertarians

Blanket statements are fun!!

[AnderMocs]

John Adams was probably a deist (it wasn't something you bragged about then). Many of the founding fathers were.

The constitution was a collaboration between many people, some atheist/deist(a lot of a the big names) and some were certainly christian. The constitution clearly states that religion has no part of the rule of the nation. The fact that it does is purely because of the men voted into power. If the nation was atheist, the president would be too.

[AnderMocs]

Then I have no idea wtf we are arguing about. I never disagreed with this. I know religion is not central to our nation, but it is a part of our history. All I was saying is that they believed in a God and that it reflected in the construction of our nation. Whether we want it now or not, means nothing because it is there in history. I hate organized religion, it has ruined my life in very many ways.

 

 

Misunderstanding. We are pretty much in agreement.

[melx]

..... what really annoys me is when an american sportsman or woman wins something and the first thing they say is 'I want to thank god' then go on and on about how blessed they are. It really makes me squirm, I'm not sure why but it really grates.

[ben_allison]

Let's not, okay?

[redprince]

..... what really annoys me is when an american sportsman or woman wins something and the first thing they say is 'I want to thank god' then go on and on about how blessed they are. It really makes me squirm, I'm not sure why but it really grates.

Maybe you are jealous that they are blessed?


Lol, I'm just joking. It's more annoying at the awards shows, it's become a popular thing to say, even for those not interested at all. This is what religion has become, this is why I cannot stand it.

[melx]

Maybe you are jealous that they are blessed? Lol, I'm just joking. It's more annoying at the awards shows, it's become a popular thing to say, even for those not interested at all. This is what religion has become, this is why I cannot stand it.

yeah, awards shows all that stuff.... I don't think I've ever heard a Brit say such a thing even if he was religious. It's far more ingrained in your culture in so many ways like that. For us it's "I want to thank my Mum and Dad" before anything else or your gonna be in big trouble!!