Members IvIark Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 out of production! And the Lunar Fuzz? Hardly puts someone in a good position to criticise a companies originality though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thom Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I personally wouldn't say their "philosophies on business are horrid". They make cheaper versions of well known equipment, nothing wrong with that. There's not a single real business in the world that's not in it for the money. Behringer isn't ashamed to just ripping other companies' ideas, the same way a lot of other companies do it. It's not the most honorable way of doing business, but who am I to judge. Sure, Behringer doesn't exactly "make cheaper copies" it the same way Tokai did it, but I've got the freedom not to buy their stuff if I don't want to. Live and let live. I figure the general consensus on behringer should be: "you get what you pay for". Which isn't a whole lot. Are there other companies that do cheap rip-offs that don't break down after 5 minutes? Maybe. But they seem to fail in the marketing departement or something. So Behringer must be doing something right, since they seem do be doing fine even though almost everyone who's ever owned anything by them has complaints about durability and what not. I have no idea how they've managed not to go bankrupt based on the bad internet reputation alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChuckNorris1982 Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I like how people seem to think Behringer are the only company out there cloning stuff. What about Peavey? What about Marshall? What about Tokai? What about 90% of all boutique pedal manufacturers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members warmeverest Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I don't have a problem with behringer policy of trying to emulate/ripoff other companies. Other than the fact that they aren't build AS solidly(I understand that they have to cut costs somewhere), they seem cost/performance ratio solid. Sorta the bullet you have to eat- Do you want something more expensive, but a bit more reliable? Do you want something cheap, but unreliable? I'm sure you can get sounds relatively close to each other to taste- sorta like the reverb video posted in the beginning. I would probably buy a ps-3 clone if behringer put it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thom Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I like how people seem to think Behringer are the only company out there cloning stuff. What about Peavey? What about Marshall? What about Tokai? What about 90% of all boutique pedal manufacturers? My point exactly. Still though, unlike those other companies you mensioned, Behringer equipment is notoriously unreliable. Everyone knows that Tokai strats and teles from the '80s are generaly better instruments as Fenders from the same era. Or even this era for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jkokura Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 And the Lunar Fuzz? Hardly puts someone in a good position to criticise a companies originality though. You make a good point. I may have been too harsh about that comment, and I certainly do seem to be doing something similar. However, in my defense, I do make some changes to circuits that make them unique. That lunar fuzz has four knobs not three, and the jack layout and graphic design are different. I build stuff that's custom, and I try hard to create stuff that's either not in production, is open to the public to work with, or has enough difference from the original to create it's own uniqueness. However, berhinger are on record for not caring one iota about any of those issues. They can take a product and replicate using cheaper parts and lower build quality and capitalize on other companies design initiative. Danelectro did the same thing to Paul C a while back. I do understand your point though. It might seem the pot calling the kettle black. However, my one offs aren't stealing business from any large company whatsoever. I'm creating unique products that fill my clients needs one by one. I wrestled with doing that lunar fuzz because I knew how similar the issue was to the Berhinger issue we are talking about. In truth, I've turned others down who just wanted a cheaper copy of another pedal that was too expensive. Other times I've sold stuff that is a direct copy of something, but that has been for me originally. Sometimes I sell to make room for new builds or because I don't need it anymore. I always insure that my customers realize that it's not an original and may differ from the original in small ways. Berhinger on the other hand, choose to reverse engineer other products in order to make exact copies cheaper. They then sell those copies for less, hoping to steal business from mackie, boss, and the like. They make inferior products that cause the original products to cost more due to lost sales. Horrid is a strong word, but I think it's appropriate in some cases. Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pewtershmit Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I like how people seem to think Behringer are the only company out there cloning stuff. What about Peavey? What about Marshall? What about Tokai? What about 90% of all boutique pedal manufacturers? I dont agree with that either. However, I can somewhat tolerate the idea of improving on a design more than I can tolerate taking a design and engineering it to be just cheaper and less reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mind_Riot89 Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 The only Behringer I've owned is the RV600 and it's fantastic. Two years and no problems. I have stuck it in a bypass loop though. My bass player had the bass EQ and it randomly emits high-pitched noises every now and again. Bit suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IvIark Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yeah ok yours has 4 knobs and the Lunar Module has 3, but the Lunar Module Deluxe has 5 so it isn't exactly covering new ground here. The point is that it's difficult to take in someones criticism of a companies originality when they appear to be profiting directly from someone elses designs. Behringer could use your exact same argument that they are servicing a different market to mid level mixer, or relatively expensive effect pedal manufacturers. You may be doing it on a much smaller scale but you're still doing exactly the same thing. Plus a lot of Behringer gear may look like a rip off of something, and there are some more obvious ones like the Echo Park and Verbzilla, but then looking at the circuits of a lot of their pedals and they simply aren't one to one copies. So someone making an inference that a green overdrive pedal has to be a TS808 ripoff actually isn't right because there are quite a few differences. But then are Strymon any better for bringing out a reverb pedal that specifically copies an Eventide algorithm? And we don't even need to get into Analogman, or Lovepedal, or Jetter, etc ad infinitum. The point is there aren't many people who can criticise a company who offer a cheaper version of a product, and do so from a position of moral superiority. Whether that's because they've got a fashionable Fuzz Face or Big Muff clone on their board, or play a Suhr Strat. We all pick and choose our morals from time to time. Like melx said, it's nice that some people have a good range of low priced effects available to them, even if that is at the expense of high quality boxes and switching. You make a good point. I may have been too harsh about that comment, and I certainly do seem to be doing something similar. However, in my defense, I do make some changes to circuits that make them unique. That lunar fuzz has four knobs not three, and the jack layout and graphic design are different. I build stuff that's custom, and I try hard to create stuff that's either not in production, is open to the public to work with, or has enough difference from the original to create it's own uniqueness. However, berhinger are on record for not caring one iota about any of those issues. They can take a product and replicate using cheaper parts and lower build quality and capitalize on other companies design initiative. Danelectro did the same thing to Paul C a while back.I do understand your point though. It might seem the pot calling the kettle black. However, my one offs aren't stealing business from any large company whatsoever. I'm creating unique products that fill my clients needs one by one. I wrestled with doing that lunar fuzz because I knew how similar the issue was to the Berhinger issue we are talking about. In truth, I've turned others down who just wanted a cheaper copy of another pedal that was too expensive. Other times I've sold stuff that is a direct copy of something, but that has been for me originally. Sometimes I sell to make room for new builds or because I don't need it anymore. I always insure that my customers realize that it's not an original and may differ from the original in small ways. Berhinger on the other hand, choose to reverse engineer other products in order to make exact copies cheaper. They then sell those copies for less, hoping to steal business from mackie, boss, and the like. They make inferior products that cause the original products to cost more due to lost sales. Horrid is a strong word, but I think it's appropriate in some cases. Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jkokura Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I don't think you and I disagree on some things. I think though, that I need to resinde my statement about originality. I shouldn't paint with broad brush strikes as I did. I believe my point really was about their corporate policies and business practices. There is a large difference between what I, or you, or strymon or suhr do and what Berhinger has been known to do. I apologize for my forthright cindemnation and seeming hypocrisy. I think all of us who build pedals walk a fine line, I just don't like the blatant way Berhinger have been known to not care about the line. I can tell you I do, and I hope you believe that. You're right that I have built what seems to be something very close, but I try hard not to undercut and create blatant copies. Now, if I released a line of blatant copies and made as many of them as I could for 20-50 bucks cheaper than the originals, then I'd say you had an argument. I see that you build tonebenders and other effects on vero and tagboard. Do you see what you do as different than Berhinger? Do you see what you do as different than what I do? Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IvIark Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 I see that you build tonebenders and other effects on vero and tagboard. Do you see what you do as different than Berhinger? Do you see what you do as different than what I do? Vero, tagboard and PCBs, and 95% of the time for myself. But I will build something for someone on occasion if they want it, whether it be an old discontinued or new product really doesn't give me any twinges of guilt at all. There's plenty of difference between me and Behringer, they make pot loads of money out of it! And what I do is also similar to what you do I suppose, but you won't hear too many criticism from me about people cloning products or using other things for inspiration. The only time I tend to criticise if when someone sells a blatant clone as a unique product ala Jetter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jkokura Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 So it sounds like we are on pretty much the same page. I do feel too that i shouldn't (and rarely do) criticize. Berhinger have just left such abad taste in my mouth having known some of the things I do. Again, my apologies for being harsh and critical. Log in my own eye and such. Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IvIark Posted February 12, 2011 Members Share Posted February 12, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaos Realms Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have had an FX600 for years, it sounds good and has never given me any trouble. I never take it anywhere or do anything to affect its condition though. As for a Behringer original product, the DDM4000 DJ mixer is one of my favorite pieces of gear. It's meant to compete with Pioneer & other mixers that cost twice as much or more, and is actually better in sound quality (32 bit) and features than anything in any price range. It has a great bitcrusher, a midi clock that locks all the time-based effects to a tapped or dialed in tempo, and tons of other great fx options that should be a lot more common but aren't. Like, if i want phaser to only affect the midrange of one of the channels, I can set it to do that with the push of a button. I can push another button to change the rate from one sweep per bar to two, four, whatever. Same for delay, flanger and filter. There are two separate fx sections that can be chained or separately assigned to different channels or the master output (which has a sonic maximizer button). I could praise this unit for days, but I doubt it would make anyone interested enough to check one out. It's too bad they've earned themselves such a reputation by making a bunch of cheap junk, because there are surely some diamonds amongst the rubbish. I wouldn't mind getting the bass synth pedal, supposedly it tracks better than the Boss it copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dap99 Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have one of their mixers that I use w/ my DAW. I have the B-1 condenser mic. I played in a band and we had one of their bass amps. I own one of their powered mixers. IMHO, for the price, their {censored} is the tits! Now, I haven't used many condeser mics or PAs. But again, for the price... I've been more than happy w/ the equipment and have had no problems w/ the quality and ruggedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reaganomics! Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 Circuits aren't patented and making money by not paying someone for their idea is the essence of capitalism, so this really shouldn't be much of a discussion. The main issue here is that Berhinger pedals might easily be the worst quality pedals, even sub 'food series' danelectros, and it seems that point has been thoroughly covered. I think Berhinger and Danelectro clones have their place, and that's mostly in the beginner market. There might be some sleeper pedals that people use, but I think the market for this is mostly kids that don't have money and are dipping their feet into the pedal market for the first time so they aren't going to risk it on botique or even higher quality OEM. They don't know what most of the effects even do, much less know that they're a clone of something they could be buying more 'honestly' from an original builder. Most people that know if a certain berhinger pedal is a tubescreamer or small stone clone know for a fact who made that pedal first, and probably have a good lead on what independent builder does it best so they know better than to buy plastic {censored} either out of ignorance or trying to have their cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members krish Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have the US600 and absolutely LOVED it when it was on my board. I have since replaced it with a Pitchfactor but I don't see myself selling it any time soon as it's a great pedal to have lying around. The super fuzz pedal is also excellent (beats the hell out of a lot of boutique fuzzes I've tried that's for sure). I wasn't a massive fan of the "Echo Machine" it had some undesireable effects on the dry signal when mixing with the wet sometimes, but perhaps this is also a flaw of the line 6 pedal it's copying, though I haven't personally done a comparison. If it weren't for the poor bypass circuitry, I'd certainly have more. The plastic enclosures don't bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members melx Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 The bottom line is everything that has ever been designed has been copied and made cheaper. Half of the clothes in the high street shops are all copies of clothes that were designed by 'catwalk' clothing designers .... those wine glasses in tescos are copies of glasses designed by some french designer, that desk lamp on your (design copy) computer desk or by the side of your bed is a knock off of some famous lamp designer.. the furnishings in your house are probably based very closely on designs that already existed, I know the glasses frames I wear are 'fashion designer' copies because I've seen the real thing (for 20x the price) .... how many pairs of jeans sold are 501 copies? Does it bother me at all, no. I don't really see the difference here at all. I can't afford Italian designer clothes and shoes, I can't afford the best handcrafted furniture to go in my house... and a lot of kids and non-pros can't afford expensive pedals, I don't think they should be beaten for buying them or the companies that make then.... it shouldn't even be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members less_cunning Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 right now i am too broke even for Behringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hosebeast Posted February 13, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 So it sounds like we are on pretty much the same page. I do feel too that i shouldn't (and rarely do) criticize. Berhinger have just left such abad taste in my mouth having known some of the things I do.Again, my apologies for being harsh and critical. Log in my own eye and such. Jacob you need to elaborate on some of these alleged horrible business practices, because the way you've left it so far is leaving a lot to the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members less_cunning Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 i would buy the RV600 in a heartbeat if it did reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ferdinandstrat Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 The only issue I had with the US600 is the volume drop...and the location of the power plug, damn that's uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the avenger Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 any person that says they can tell even the slightest difference in sound between these two pedals is a lying turd. i don't mean to jack the thread, but does anyone like this guy's tone? bleh ...maybe(hopefully) he's running through the mic on his camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jenesis Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 Don't jack the thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members arcaneaether Posted February 13, 2011 Members Share Posted February 13, 2011 The VD400 is an incredible pedal. Boss DM3 clone, if I remember correctly? For Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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