Members Trick Fall Posted December 9, 2012 Members Share Posted December 9, 2012 That {censored} is crazy. I've been zapped and it is no fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lefort_1 Posted December 9, 2012 Members Share Posted December 9, 2012 Yeah. I have no real knowledge of stuff like this, and neither does anyone else who was there so we could only speculate on what the cause may have been. I'm assuming it was either through the guitar or microphone. Unfortunately, I know way too much about this stuff. It all depends on the current that's passing thru you. there's a point where it tingles, a point where you see the actual spark, a point where your grip tightens (but you can open), a point where you can't open any more, and a point at which your heart gets knocked into vfib, another point at which your heart clamps down, but might restart, then there's this one really dangerous point at which you knock the heart for a loop and basically drive the heart to the extent that it won't repolarize for the next QRS wave. There are other ways to go...lots of intermediaries, but lets not split Bundles of His. For either the vfib or deep depolarization, you need a defibrillator to bring them back. That's what AEDs are all about. They should be everywhere....and I should got my name on one of those patents (kicks self for the millionth time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sparkfriction Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 zapped myself with a stereo poweramp and a interface. i cut out the ground from the cable of the powersupply from the interface to kill the "hum"... fine so far, but i touched both powerd up units at the same time. EDIT: yes, i learned my lesson and now i use stickers with the words "DO NOT TOUCH!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ambient Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 What kind of amp was he using? This makes me nervous as I live in a country where grounded outlets are extremely rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jimash Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Of course I have gotten those shocks may times. But that sounds bad, and I am guessing that they are worse in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A.P. Ryder Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Glad to hear he's ok. Lucky guy. Time to get out the acoustic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members majafa Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Scary. Good that he's ok. I was shocked more than a few times by mics while also touching guitar strings when I used to gig. Eventually I kept a sock with my equipment so if we played somewhere with a grounding problem I could put the sock over the mic to avoid hands touching metal guitar strings and lips touching metal mic at the same time. It worked too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members houseofglass21 Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Isn't putting one of those foam windscreens over the mic at gigs enough to prevent this from happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Yeah. I have no real knowledge of stuff like this, and neither does anyone else who was there so we could only speculate on what the cause may have been. I'm assuming it was either through the guitar or microphone. I'd say that the injury suffered was serious enough to warrant an investigation into the grounding and wiring of the venue. Yes, it could have been a problem with the wiring of an amp, or the PA, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have the club's wiring checked out. Sorry to hear about this Loobs. Glad he's going to be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members penelope twee Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Definitely scary, what kind of precautions can be taken to try to minimise the chance of such occurrences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members juri Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 orange cabs are tough Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rock Hardness Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Definitely scary, what kind of precautions can be taken to try to minimise the chance of such occurrences? First, get a plug tester. You can pick them up at electrical supply houses. Looks like a 3 prong plug with 3 lights on it and a little chart for all the possible wiring conditions. Plug it in and the lights will tell you the outlet's condition - correct wiring, open ground, open neutral, hot/neutral reversed, etc. I'm an electrician and I use one everytime I power up an installation to check out all the outlets. I expect that they make different models for each country, so if "neutral" doesn't sound right to you, you probably live in the U.K. If the outlet doesn't read as correct, don't plug in! Second, NEVER cut the third prong! That is your chassis ground. It's job is to carry short circuits to ground ("earth" ) and trip the circuit breaker. Notice the back of every modern Marshall says "This device must be earthed". Electricity WANTS to go to ground by the path of least resistance - no ground? guess what, it's going through YOU!!! If ground loops are an issue, use one of these products: http://www.ebtechaudio.com/products.html Have not tried the Hum-X, but the Hum Eliminator works - I have used it. I read about an idea in a Paul Gilbert interview once, but it was a while ago and I can't speak from experience as I have not tried it, YMMV - Plug an instrument cable into an "un-used" jack on your rig. Plug the other end into an unused channel on the P.A. This "should" bond the systems together, eliminating potential voltages between your gear and the P.A. - but I am not sure if this would cause a ground loop - hum in one or the other. (Open the hot, perhaps?) Last, if you go to grab a mic, touch it first with the back of your hand - you won't grip it if you "lock up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RadioSilence Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 NEVER cut the third prong! That is your chassis ground. British plugs have little flaps over the holes for the live and neutral that can only be opened when the longer earth (ground) prong is inserted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oinkbanana Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 came to thread expecting a lame storyOP delivered.that's some crazy/scary {censored}. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stubacca Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Glad to hear this story doesn't have a bad ending! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ambient Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by Rock Hardness First, get a plug tester. You can pick them up at electrical supply houses. Looks like a 3 prong plug with 3 lights on it and a little chart for all the possible wiring conditions. Plug it in and the lights will tell you the outlet's condition - correct wiring, open ground, open neutral, hot/neutral reversed, etc. I'm an electrician and I use one everytime I power up an installation to check out all the outlets. I expect that they make different models for each country, so if "neutral" doesn't sound right to you, you probably live in the U.K. If the outlet doesn't read as correct, don't plug in! Second, NEVER cut the third prong! That is your chassis ground. It's job is to carry short circuits to ground ("earth" ) and trip the circuit breaker. Notice the back of every modern Marshall says "This device must be earthed". Electricity WANTS to go to ground by the path of least resistance - no ground? guess what, it's going through YOU!!! If ground loops are an issue, use one of these products: http://www.ebtechaudio.com/products.html Have not tried the Hum-X, but the Hum Eliminator works - I have used it. I read about an idea in a Paul Gilbert interview once, but it was a while ago and I can't speak from experience as I have not tried it, YMMV - Plug an instrument cable into an "un-used" jack on your rig. Plug the other end into an unused channel on the P.A. This "should" bond the systems together, eliminating potential voltages between your gear and the P.A. - but I am not sure if this would cause a ground loop - hum in one or the other. (Open the hot, perhaps?) Last, if you go to grab a mic, touch it first with the back of your hand - you won't grip it if you "lock up". What's the difference between hot and neutral and what happens if they are reversed? Here in Japan, most outlets look like this: And plugs look like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rock Hardness Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by RadioSilence British plugs have little flaps over the holes for the live and neutral that can only be opened when the longer earth (ground) prong is inserted. Didn't know that, great idea! Must up the cost per unit, of course, but it saves lives and property, so it's all good in my book. Also, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that U.K. voltage was "Pole to Pole" - e.g. 120v + 120v = 240v for standard household plugs, but if I understand your mention of the neutral, it's 240v hot to neutral? (We have 120v hot to neutral in the U.S.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rock Hardness Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by ambient What's the difference between hot and neutral and what happens if they are reversed? Here in Japan, most outlets look like this: And plugs look like this: Looks like the plugs are "polarized", meaning the prongs are different sizes and not easy to reverse (here the neutral is larger, and two-prong cords have a "ribbed" side which indicates the neutral. Most common household appliances are two-prong items - clocks, vacuums, toasters, etc.) "Hot" is the voltage side - the "working" part of the circuit - which delivers the power. "Neutral" is the "return" if you will - the means of completing the circuit. Electricity flows through the "load" (toaster, vacuum, clock, etc.) where it passes through the neutral to get to the earth. Swapping hot for neutral can have different effects depending on the device - heaters don't care what direction voltage flows in, but computers, electronics and certain motors certainly do! Vintage amps were all two prong here ('50's Fenders, etc) - I don't know when we introduced three prong plugs in this country for sure.... The most important thing about polarity is for safety - old power drills and the like would often have the case grounded to the neutral side - reverse the polarity, you electrify the case. OUCH!!! ( I once used a vacuum where some fool had filed off the tabs on a twistlock adapter and I got blasted when I touched it ) Do guitar amps in Japan have two prongs or three? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ambient Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by Rock Hardness Looks like the plugs are "polarized", meaning the prongs are different sizes and not easy to reverse (here the neutral is larger, and two-prong cords have a "ribbed" side which indicates the neutral. Most common household appliances are two-prong items - clocks, vacuums, toasters, etc.) That's not the case, both prongs are identical and can be plugged in either way. I think it's the same as in the states, not counting the ground pin. Originally Posted by Rock Hardness "Hot" is the voltage side - the "working" part of the circuit - which delivers the power. "Neutral" is the "return" if you will - the means of completing the circuit. Electricity flows through the "load" (toaster, vacuum, clock, etc.) where it passes through the neutral to get to the earth. Swapping hot for neutral can have different effects depending on the device - heaters don't care what direction voltage flows in, but computers, electronics and certain motors certainly do! Vintage amps were all two prong here ('50's Fenders, etc) - I don't know when we introduced three prong plugs in this country for sure.... The most important thing about polarity is for safety - old power drills and the like would often have the case grounded to the neutral side - reverse the polarity, you electrify the case. OUCH!!! ( I once used a vacuum where some fool had filed off the tabs on a twistlock adapter and I got blasted when I touched it ) Do guitar amps in Japan have two prongs or three? I've seen two prong, two prong with a ground wire and three prong like the US. Most places don't have anywhere to put the ground wire, so everywhere I go I see little green wires hanging off plugs in outlets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RadioSilence Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by Rock Hardness Didn't know that, great idea! Must up the cost per unit, of course, but it saves lives and property, so it's all good in my book. Also, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that U.K. voltage was "Pole to Pole" - e.g. 120v + 120v = 240v for standard household plugs, but if I understand your mention of the neutral, it's 240v hot to neutral? (We have 120v hot to neutral in the U.S.) I don't really know, I just googled for a wiring diagram to find out what the wires are called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members (⌐■_■) Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 this is great Ben a friends band is playing there next week and I'm doing visuals : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jimash Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by ambient That's not the case, both prongs are identical and can be plugged in either way. I think it's the same as in the states, not counting the ground pin. I've seen two prong, two prong with a ground wire and three prong like the US. Most places don't have anywhere to put the ground wire, so everywhere I go I see little green wires hanging off plugs in outlets. I wouldn't worry too much if I were you, because the voltage in Japan is much lower than UK, even lower than US. ( In the US most of our newer stuff has grounded plugs or polarized/sized prongs these days) Just test it with one hand on the strings and touch the other hand to the mic. This avoids that lip shock. If it happens , flip the polarity switch on your amp and try again. Its going to happen, just don't freak out . It rarely goes as far as the poor guy in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted December 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by (??_?) this is great Ben a friends band is playing there next week and I'm doing visuals : You might not be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted December 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by oinkbanana came to thread expecting a lame story OP delivered. that's some crazy/scary {censored}. way to be a douche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lefort_1 Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Originally Posted by jimash I wouldn't worry too much if I were you, because the voltage in Japan is much lower than UK, even lower than US. ( In the US most of our newer stuff has grounded plugs or polarized/sized prongs these days) Just test it with one hand on the strings and touch the other hand to the mic. This avoids that lip shock. If it happens , flip the polarity switch on your amp and try again. Its going to happen, just don't freak out . It rarely goes as far as the poor guy in the OP. .....uh, plz no. It depends on the current you are passing, as well as voltage. I've seen 12 volts (and less) blow a finger off. It can happen. just get a good conductor across 20 amps and bang! Just get a good wall-circuit checker...they're dirt cheap (under $10). And check at the point you plug in (strips, post-power-conditioner, etc) not just at the wall. If someone with an undiagnosed cardiac-conduction-condition does that hand-to-hand check, they can die. - the current path is thru the chest and they are fooked. - believe it or not, hand-to-lip is 'safer', for reasons of (a) conduction path and (b) even uncontrollable muscular contractions can't effectively "deathgrip" a mic, if those are LIP muscles. Still not good. It just hurts lips more because there aremore neurons per cubic measure in a lip than in a hand. Actually, the lip-path still sucks becuz the esophagus passes extremely close to the heart (the first AED took ADVANTAGE of that fact when delivering the defib pulse). And the lower japanese voltage would do little to save someone. srsly. If the conduction path has relatively low, your still risking fatal events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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