KORG KRONOS

[mcmurray]

 

Problem is, I'll still be gigging with a 76 key MotifXS. Since the Motif's MIDI implementation SUCKS BALLS (BALLS I tell you! It's like the thing's from 1988)

 

 

What exactly don't you like about the XS MIDI implementation? Why would the Kronos do it better?

[NuSkoolTone]

You gotta be kidding about Master mode. It's a pretty intuitive way to control things IMO. I guess I'm just used to it.

 

 

No I'm not kidding at all! I suppose it's how you use it. To me they re-invented a wheel that shouldn't have been. For live gigging, it's an effing NIGHTMARE IMO.

 

For 2 DECADES, the standard was around 8 patches you could throw in a performance/combi whatever. If you wanted to control and layer an external synth, you just used one of the slots and assigned it to MIDI. Rarely all the slots got used so this was no big deal. Now? Performance mode gives you 4 (FOUR)! Half the amount AND there is NO MIDI! Want MIDI? See Master Mode...

 

So OK, we'll just use the Performance mode in a Master AFTER you've programmed your Performance. So off we go to program some more!

 

You get 128 Master mode slots (On the XS). For starters, this is barely adequate for me unless I want to keep switching between Master and other Modes all night at the gig (now if THAT's not just BEGGING for an "Oops wrong button!" I don't know what is!). So you can pick one mode on the synth to use (Performance Mode in my case) and THREE external synths for a total of Seven (?) sounds. This is still LESS functionality then I had nearly 20 YEARS ago from a controller perspective!

 

Say 4 sounds in a split/layer isn't enough. Maybe you want a sound effect or drum sound at the bottom of the keyboard you use for the end of the song. Well you're in luck! MORE PROGRAMMING! Now you can go into SONG Mode and make the split/layers there (Up to 16) in MIXING mode so you can get around the limitations of performance mode just to do something that was a few button clicks YEARS ago on keyboards with half the technology.

 

Do you have a lot of songs with this scenario at the Gig? Well you can do it 64 times. And if you use all 64 of them, you now have no room for sequences should they be in your live show! (I don't, but many do). Oooh..I almost forgot, I think you can do some more of this in PATTERN mode too! (Maybe? I dunno, was never worth it to check) Hopping between modes is fun! I want to program in EVERY one so I can do the gig! YAY!

 

So let's look at this memory eating, {censored} basket organization, that was supposed to make my life "Easier". Instead of programming a patch/Performace/Combi ONCE, I now get to program a minimum of twice, sometimes up to 3 or 4 times to accomplish the same thing. Goody!

 

384 performances which can only be used by 128 Master Modes (Which effectively make 256 Performances unable to layer with other keyboards had I wanted to) which can gobble up 64 songs all to do LESS than what could be done nearly 20 years ago and have LESS patches total for the show. Brilliant!

 

I suppose you could load MORE files on your breaks to overcome this (And what's more fun than to do THIS on a break?) if you have set lists. Oh WAIT! My band doesn't USE set lists! We play to the CROWD and pull one of 200+ songs out of our hat depending on what's going on. Did I mention I use Samples too? THOSE are FUN waiting for again! That's if re-loading between sets was even an OPTION...

 

I suppose you could go into user banks and start reprogramming all the Voices (Hey another mode! YIPPEE!) to use 8 elements and then put THOSE in a Performance and then put THOSE in a Master. That could work right? {censored} I have no life, what's a few hundred hours of my time?

 

So it looks like I'm {censored}ed if I want to use MIDI with my 2007 keyboard. I'm psyched!

 

Oh another TREAT about master mode AFAIK: Remember the sliders and knobs you had in performance mode where you could control each of the sounds in that patch should you need to? GONE! So are all the other control surfaces if memory serves. You NOW only have a master volume to control the WHOLE performance within the master. There will be no tweaking filters or individual volumes on the fly or any NONSENSE like that!

 

So really, what did master mode accomplish besides being able to run the sequencer without having to jump to the actual sequencer MODE? IMO NOTHING!

 

All it did was cripple the keyboard for live use with other MIDI equipment and gave me a programming nightmare if I wanted to maximize my rig. I mean the very CONCEPT of selecting a patch and having it tell another keyboard to select one too is CRAZY. I should be shot for thinking such things! I simply GAVE UP on the idea of using the board as a master controller in any real capacity.

 

So why have I put up with this you ask? The sound. Until recently, nothing could stand to the Motif and do what it does. It's a strong board that can do quite a bit on it's own. The presets in it (Gasp) are actually QUITE good, and it's pretty easy to put together authentic sounding sounds together and sound like what's on the radio. Lastly, one of the very FEW things they did right in performance mode is it allows you to make some minor tweaks to the voices without having to write new sounds. I know other boards do this too, but the implementation here is pretty good.

 

So, THAT's why I hate Master Mode and seriously would have beat the {censored} out of the people that designed/approved it while learning they essentially took away my MIDI for live use.

[zzzxtreme]

nuskool, i know what u mean. before the PC3/XS, always just 4 part performance mode. Korg's combi mode since the M1 (!!!) has been easy and straightforward (mininum 8 parts)
Alesis QS is 16 parts i think, but I remember u can't split by velocity at all

in XS, there's 4 part performance mode, and like nuskool said, to get 16 part, u have to get to mastermode with limited setups. now u have program mode, performance mode, master mode. korgs has always been better in this regard, since the M1 !

yamaha is always trying to be unconventional and different. in the mastermode edit if u want to layer 16 programs, unless u refer the cryptic manual, there's no way a right minded person can know which button to press (maybe the firmware is different now)

[Miket156]

by Dan88z: I'm not blown away by the string and horn sounds I'm hearing on the Kronos, and I use enough of those live that they will weigh heavily in my choice.

 

 

I agree. Korg hasn't been floated my boat with their strings. When the M3 was introduced and I heard the first demo, I couldn't believe how unrealistic they sounded, Yuk. Horns? I don't know that the horns are all that great on any synth. Horns are controlled so much by the individual player that its difficult to get realistic horns. Korg is not the only one that suffers from that reality.

 

However, I have so many songs that have a variety of string parts that have to sound realistic, or whats the point of doing them? From what I've heard so far, they don't sound quite as realistic as my Motif ES8. At 7 years old, that's an insult to the Kronos. Granted, I haven't heard a lot of string demos from the Kronos, so maybe I'm just short changing Korg. We'll see.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[AnotherScott]

 

Oh another TREAT about master mode AFAIK: Remember the sliders and knobs you had in performance mode where you could control each of the sounds in that patch should you need to? GONE! So are all the other control surfaces if memory serves. You NOW only have a master volume to control the WHOLE performance within the master. There will be no tweaking filters or individual volumes on the fly or any NONSENSE like that!

 

I think that, once you assign a Performance to a Master (for the purpose of adding control of external MIDI devices to the patch), you still retain all the real-time control that Performance had when you used it in Performance mode. What might have tripped you up (if my understanding is correct)... In order to add external MIDI control to a Performance that you've assigned to a Master you have to set the "Zone Switch" parameter to ON. By default, I think that does change the functions of the knobs and sliders (I think it defaults to changing them so that they control the external devices). If instead you want them to continue to control the usual parameters associated with the Performance, then on the same screen with the "Zone Switch" parameter, you have to change the setting right underneath, "Knob Control Assign" to something other than "Zone." Then those controls revert back to controlling the internal sounds. (This is based on my playing with other Yamaha stuff, I don't have an XS to test this on, maybe someone can confirm this.)

[NuSkoolTone]

Hey Scott, thanks for the helpful words. Let me answer to what I remember from memory. Take it with a grain of salt, because I haven't checked the manual to verify.

I think that, once you assign a Performance to a Master (for the purpose of adding control of external MIDI devices to the patch), you still retain all the real-time control that Performance had when you used it in Performance mode. What might have tripped you up (if my understanding is correct)... In order to add external MIDI control to a Performance that you've assigned to a Master you have to set the "Zone Switch" parameter to ON. By default, I think that does change the functions of the knobs and sliders (I think it defaults to changing them so that they control the external devices). If instead you want them to continue to control the usual parameters associated with the Performance, then on the same screen with the "Zone Switch" parameter, you have to change the setting right underneath, "Knob Control Assign" to something other than "Zone." Then those controls revert back to controlling the internal sounds. (This is based on my playing with other Yamaha stuff, I don't have an XS to test this on, maybe someone can confirm this.)

You may be right, but I remember going over it with the manual and coming to an impass. The bottom line: It's a LOT of extra work for sometimes less functionality and a lot less setups (Of internal sounds and external) than you can do with the standard method.

[AnotherScott]

 

See you would think so, but the values are NOT intact. That's part of the problem! When I went to try it that was one of the "WTF?" moments with the keyboard. ... You may be right, but I remember going over it with the manual and coming to an impass.

 

 

If it helps, in case you want to revisit it, my understanding came from that same page, 255. The top left section, "Knob Control Assign." If the Zone Switch is on, and Knob Control Assign is anything other than Zone, I think it should work the way you want...?

 

Getting back on topic... Yamaha's "Master" function is kind of their equivalent to Korg's "Set List" function. In both cases, you get banks of definable buttons which can call up your choice of

... Programs/Voices (generally single sounds across the keyboard)

... Combis/Performances (splits/layers of sounds)

... Songs (sequences)

 

But there is a significant difference in how they handle integrating the control of external MIDI devices. With Korg, you do the external MIDI assignment at the Combi (Performance) level. With Yamaha, you do the external MIDI assignment at the Master (Set List) level.

[Conbrio]

Korg hasn't been floated my boat with their strings. When the M3 was introduced and I heard the first demo, I couldn't believe how unrealistic they sounded, Yuk. Horns? I don't know that the horns are all that great on any synth. Horns are controlled so much by the individual player that its difficult to get realistic horns. Korg is not the only one that suffers from that reality.

 

 

Some of the M3's individual string programs can be thin and require tweaking, but for best results--I prefer the combination mode and create layered strings from various programs. I've been quite pleased with the results.

 

You can also build a great horn section in combination mode, and then make it even fatter by tweaking EQ and detuning... quite simple.

[dan88z]

NuSkool, I understand your frustration. But if you spend time with Master mode, and get all the stuff tweaked at home, it makes your gig a lot easier. I think your comparisons to older keyboards midi implementation doesn't hold much merit- you usually had 64 programs total on those boards, not the 128 master slots. If you are using more than 128 unique sounds in a night, then you may need another solution.

I've been using Master mode live for several years now. I don't use it like a set list and have patch A1 be the 1st song on the list, A2 the 2nd, etc. I put my sounds wherever the next open slot is, and then have a set list that has the patch number next to the song. I have them somewhat grouped- bank A is different pianos and layered pianos, B electric pianos and layered EPs, C strings/pads, D horns and misc. E leads. F,G,H are all song specific patches. I might use an acoustic piano 6 times in a night, I don't need a different patch for each song, I just pull up A1. But when I need a 4 way split/layer, I create that performance and then map it to a patch in Master mode.

It took me about an hour to fully integrate my Nord Stage into my rig, having the S90ES calling up patches from the Stage with master mode. That was going thru every song on my set list and mapping out what sounds I needed so that 2 button presses (bank and patch number) will work my whole setup.

I've found it to be one of the easiest ways to manage my 2 keyboard setup for a band that takes literally 2 seconds between songs, and I have to have my patch called up before the song starts.

[AnotherScott]

 

I've been using Master mode live for several years now. I don't use it like a set list and have patch A1 be the 1st song on the list, A2 the 2nd, etc.

 

 

Yes, it's useful to not let companies' names for things pigeonhole you into how you you think about using them. I will not be using the Kronos "Set List" function as a set list either, I'll be using it the way you use Master mode... just assigning slots/buttons for commonly used sounds, with some logical grouping to them, so I can easily call up whatever I need at any time. I will not be ordering them according to the band's set list because (a) as you say, you can need the same sound for many songs, and it would be unnecessary wasted effort to create all those multiple instances of the same patch, and moreover (b) we probably never play the same set in the same order twice.

 

Apart from where you do the MIDI assignments, the big difference between Kronos' "Set List" and Yamaha's "Master" is that, on the Korg, the buttons are labeled. On the Yamaha, you either have to call up a separate screen to see the button assignments, or you have to use some kind of pen-and-paper arrangement to identify which buttons you need for which sounds. On the other hand, the implementation on the MOX also has an advantage over Korg's approach. Both present you with 8 sets of 16 buttons. But if you are playing, for example, a sound on the first "page" and you need to switch to a sound that happens to be on the fifth "page," on the Yamaha, you can navigate directly from the first set of button definitions to the fifth with a single button. On the Korg, you basically have to hit "next page" four times, to get to where the Yamaha can get you in a single button press. This is something I hope Korg addresses. There is room on the bottom of the Set List screen for 8 small buttons that could take you instantly to any of the 8 pages in the current Set List. But right now, that's an unfortunate limitation. (In fact, I think I'll pop over to their forum and mention this...)

 

edit: of course the other big difference, from NuSkool's perspective, would be that, on the Kronos, if 128 isn't enough, it's simple to call up different sets of 128.

[EJ2]

One workaround is to prepare your band set list in Sequencer Mode. That way, you leave your program and combi banks intact.

[CoolColJ]

Fan noise is a deal breaker...

 

I think Korg could learn a thing or too from modern video cards. They are far more powerful and run hotter than the CPU in the Kronos and yet many mid range ones can run passive.

Use a heatpipe from the CPU connected to a big external heatsink on the back - sorted and silent....

 

Having no vents, and small faster spinning fan is not smart

[Mediterranean]

First time I get to see the bottom panel of the Kronos. Is that compressed wood such as this?

 

Why not a metallic panel? Is it because wood is better for supporting the internals? What do you think?

 

Video posted by Bernard over in the HG thread. Bottom panel visible as the Korg guy carries the unit:

 

[Son of HuHefner]

 

Fan noise is a deal breaker... I think Korg could learn a thing or too from modern video cards. They are far more powerful and run hotter than the CPU in the Kronos and yet many mid range ones can run passive. Use a heatpipe from the CPU connected to a big external heatsink on the back - sorted and silent.... Having no vents, and small faster spinning fan is not smart

 

 

it has not been a deal breaker per the +100 Kronos owners that have checked in, posted

[AnotherScott]

 

Fan noise is a deal breaker... ... Having no vents, and small faster spinning fan is not smart

 

 

Vents have their own problems... it's a place moisture or debris can get in. (I happen to have used a Kronos on an outdoor gig yesterday.)

 

Sure, I'd rather there was no fan, but for me, it's not a deal breaker. For me, at a gig, I wouldn't notice it; and when recording, I often use sealed-back headphones anyway (which also addresses the HD and sometimes fan noise of my laptop).

 

It depends what you need, and what your alternatives are. If you look long enough, you can find a potential deal breaker in any design, nothing is perfect. If you can get everything you'd want from a Kronos out of some other keyboards(s) without fans, that could be a better choice for you.

[CoolColJ]

I don't like moving parts in a synth because then you expect it to be a throwaway. Without exception every synth I have owned with moving parts that were crucial for operation eventually died in that component. Samplers with a floppy drive for OS, VL1 floppy died etc.

 

In a PC, the fans get noisier over time, but they are much easier to replace. I usually swap them over for a quieter more effecient designs.

I don't know why Korg didn't use heat pipes and attach it to an external heatsink. Hell use the whole case as one big heatsink

 

My old synths are still going strong, SH2, Minimoog, JP8 etc. 30+ years old

Even my Wavestation, the only synth I ever bought brand new, went the distance, but I sold it recently. I hope the Kronos can't last at least that long, but I have my doubts.

I think the screen will die before then as well...

[NuSkoolTone]

 

NuSkool, I understand your frustration. But if you spend time with Master mode, and get all the stuff tweaked at home, it makes your gig a lot easier. I think your comparisons to older keyboards midi implementation doesn't hold much merit- you usually had 64 programs total on those boards, not the 128 master slots. If you are using more than 128 unique sounds in a night, then you may need another solution. I've been using Master mode live for several years now. I don't use it like a set list and have patch A1 be the 1st song on the list, A2 the 2nd, etc. I put my sounds wherever the next open slot is, and then have a set list that has the patch number next to the song. I have them somewhat grouped- bank A is different pianos and layered pianos, B electric pianos and layered EPs, C strings/pads, D horns and misc. E leads. F,G,H are all song specific patches. I might use an acoustic piano 6 times in a night, I don't need a different patch for each song, I just pull up A1. But when I need a 4 way split/layer, I create that performance and then map it to a patch in Master mode. It took me about an hour to fully integrate my Nord Stage into my rig, having the S90ES calling up patches from the Stage with master mode. That was going thru every song on my set list and mapping out what sounds I needed so that 2 button presses (bank and patch number) will work my whole setup. I've found it to be one of the easiest ways to manage my 2 keyboard setup for a band that takes literally 2 seconds between songs, and I have to have my patch called up before the song starts.

 

 

Yeah for most people I can see how master mode would work. I'm not trying to sound all cool and stuff, but from a patch POV I guess I'm kind of an "Extreme" user. I don't have 128 unique sounds yet that I use, but I'm pretty close. I see myself eclipsing it within the next 6 months at the current rate. We do a lot of pop radio and I really go for authenticity. We currently have over 200+ songs we do, and I reuse some patches of course but I really just need more than Master Mode offers as it's implemented in the synth. Why there's only 128 when there's 384 performances I'll never understand. This is all part of the reason why I'm bitching so loud about it. Even my Korg 01/W from 1993 had 200 slots for this purpose! I don't know what board you were using that had 64 slots, but the 200 on the Korg is where I'm coming from and that's from almost 20 years ago.

 

So yes I do need another solution. Currently it's performance mode and manually changing patches on my M50. Thankfully it has a GREAT patch management system which I can make custom categories and sub categories that I can access via the touchscreen so it's pretty fast.

 

I tried to categorize them on the Motif at first, but it's just too many patches to manage as it built up. I haven't tried the 3rd party software to regroup it assuming that would be easy. I should though. Just haven't gotten to it.

 

We also have a 3 second rule in the band (Can you say dance floor? They scatter the MOMENT the music stops!) so I'm very busy! LOL To make matters worse we don't USE a set list. EVER. I have to pay attention and often have to anticipate where I think the band leader is going. A performance mode that worked as expected with external MIDI gear would have made my life SO much easier!

[Vito Corleone]

Fan noise is a deal breaker... I think Korg could learn a thing or too from modern video cards. They are far more powerful and run hotter than the CPU in the Kronos and yet many mid range ones can run passive. Use a heatpipe from the CPU connected to a big external heatsink on the back - sorted and silent.... Having no vents, and small faster spinning fan is not smart

 

 

The fan IS pretty loud for a keyboard. I'm always a little bit surprised about how loud it is when I turn it on. I've never had a keyboard I could "hear" before.

 

AT THE SAME TIME---I can only hear it when I turn it on in a dead-silent room such as my home studio. When I turn it on at a gig---even before soundcheck when there are no customers in the room yet---I can't hear it. It is inaudible above normal room-noise. During a gig, of course, it can't be heard either.

 

Would it be audible if you were recording from an open vocal mic right above the keyboard? MAYBE. But it would be very slight.

[suitandtieguy]

i played an M50 today. please tell me that the keybed is not the same on the KROKUS.

[sani]

No, it is not the same.

[evildragon]

It's completely different. Much better.

[nobeatnik]

I suppose you're talking about the 61-key version since both 73 and 88 on the Kronos are RH3 weighted hammer action (same as on M50/M3 AFAIK).

[Meatball Fulton]

AFAIK: Remember the sliders and knobs you had in performance mode where you could control each of the sounds in that patch should you need to? GONE! So are all the other control surfaces if memory serves. You NOW only have a master volume to control the WHOLE performance within the master. There will be no tweaking filters or individual volumes on the fly or any NONSENSE like that!.

Your AFAIK is incorrect.

If you select one of the 16 tracks in a Motif mixing, the knobs give you access to filter cutoff and resonance, amp EG ADR (but not S for some reason), EQ, arpeggiator settings, effects depth and 2 assignable parameters (per part!) while the sliders give you volume control for each part. They all send over MIDI so as long as the external gear plays nice with CC assignments you can control some of that, too.

Yamaha's Performances have never been like Korg Combis...even if you go back to ancient workstations like the SY77. On Korgs, the Combis and Sequencer modes are pretty much the same as I recall. Yamaha's Performance mode seems to bug a lot of people, but it never bothered me...I don't use it Using Songs and Patterns as multitimbral setups makes sense to me because that's how my old Ensoniq SQ-80 used to work.

I learned the hard way when I replaced the SQ-80 with a Motif ES that I needed to learn Yamaha's way of doing things rather than being upset when it didn't work like the SQ-80.

I'm sure if I suddenly switched to a Kronos there would be a long list of things that would drive me insane because it doesn't work like a Motif One off the top of my head is the DAW controller features of the Motif simply don't exist in the Kronos or any other workstation.

[RichF]

I suppose you're talking about the 61-key version since both 73 and 88 on the Kronos are RH3 weighted hammer action (same as on M50/M3 AFAIK).

This is correct. The semi-weighted keybed on the M50-61 and M50-73 is completely different from the 61-key Kronos. The M50-88, on the other hand, uses the same RH3 keybed as the 73 and 88-key Kronos.

Thanks,
-Rich

[Thorhead]

 

 

 

So, if mat won...

 

Why is there a Kronos in Jordan's apartment?