My new "Charvel" build

[marshallnoise]

 

No, seriously.

 

So are all Russians guilty for Stalin's crimes? Are all Chinese guilty for Mao's crimes?

 

Am I guilty for Bush's actions just because the alternative was worse to me?

 

Come on man. You don't think it was the least bit scary to be living in Germany at the time the Nazi's were coming into power? Yeah...

[Megadeth Man]

 

No, seriously. So are all Russians guilty for Stalin's crimes? Are all Chinese guilty for Mao's crimes? Am I guilty for Bush's actions just because the alternative was worse to me? Come on man. You don't think it was the least bit scary to be living in Germany at the time the Nazi's were coming into power? Yeah...

 

 

Yes, I'm sure it was very scary for many in Germany at the time, I have not said otherwise. To reiterate, the single point I have made is that no German from that time can claim ignorance as to what The Final Solution was. I did this in direct response to other posts in this thread that put forward ignorance as a defence.

[DeathMonkey]

I think we have to separate the Swastika from Germany's historical symbology to some extent. It doesn't represent Germany, it represents the Nazi Party. The German flag isn't a symbol of oppression, nor are it's traditional symbols, even those used by the Nazis. The Iron Cross, for example, has a long history that pre-dates the rise of the National Socialists, if I recall correctly.

 

The swastika IMHO is a uniquely disturbing symbol because it is seen as representing ONLY a negative, unlike the Confederate Flag, which, while to many it represents slavery and oppression, to many others it symbolizes positive Southern ante-Bellum values - gallantry, honor, and chivalry. The swastika does not really have that duality (unless you're a Nazi, of course).

 

The swastika represents only a brutal and horrific regime that committed some of the most heinous acts ever perpetrated. It is locked in with that one single thought more than the other symbols of the war. The Rising Sun has been Japan's symbol for generations, so the terrible Mongolian Experiments are but a PART of it's history, not the entirety of it. Does that make sense?

 

So I think that treating the swastika like the other symbols is a bit off as a comparison. It is more akin to the burning cross of the Klan than the Hammer and Sickle of Russia, or the Star and Crescent.

 

Btw, I used the picture of the model because the only other good picture linked to a disreputable guitar dealer.

[Aibric]

 

No {censored}, I made one simple point that's all, I could go on. Only a blind and deaf German from that time can plead ignorance. You cannot construct a case that says otherwise. I'm under no illusions that saving the Jews was Britain's last concern in WWII.

 

 

You're totally incorrect. Everyone knew lots of different types of people were being rounded up and sent to work camps, but the media was completely state run. Only Himmler's Schutzstaffel worked the camps. The only evidence of official discussion of extermination I believe is a speech Himmler gave to a closed gathering of SS, where he mentioned only for a moment how their greatest victory was doing what had to to be done but remaining good men despite it, something along those lines. I believe he mentioned the piles of dead bodies they had seen, some type of language like that, but even then that's somewhat veiled language. Its terrible enough putting people into camps and forcing them to work, for sure (bear in mind executive orders have existed for decades in the US that gives the president the right to use the military to round us up into camps). Plenty of people died in the work camps from typhus and starvation once supply lines got destroyed, too. But to say that every German knew and was complicit in the extermination aspect is not supported by any sort of evidence I have ever seen.

 

To clear up the misconception, in Mein Kampf, Hitler does talk about race and Jews plenty, but he does not talk about exterminating all the Jews. Maybe there are some bogus editions where that has been added, but originally what he talks about is ruling over the other peoples of the world. It expresses a eugenic worldview where Europeans and specifically Germans are at the top, and blacks, Jews and gypsies are the lowest rung. He says they will benefit from being ruled by the superior race. This is obviously pretty bad stuff, but pretty similar to the reasoning of the British Empire, and it does not say "What we're going to do is round up Jews and secretly kill them. WOOPS! I shouldn't have put that in here..."

 

 

What do you mean exactly? Despicable acts committed by the British throughout history is not the subject under discussion here. I don't support the British actions in Iraq. And I find it disgusting that we have the 2nd largest "defence" budget in the world after the States.

 

 

Right, but in Britain and the States, people are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of just what our nations have done around the world. As escalation seems a greater and greater possibility, including talk of using tactical nukes, surely you can imagine people in affected nations wondering why a nation where we elect our leaders allows it. Surely we all understand what we've done...imagine if the balance of power does change in the future, due to economic or military reasons against the anglo-sphere. Are you ready to accept the type of victor's justice you advocate?

[Aibric]

 

I think we have to separate the Swastika from Germany's historical symbology to some extent. It doesn't represent Germany, it represents the Nazi Party. The German flag isn't a symbol of oppression, nor are it's traditional symbols, even those used by the Nazis. The Iron Cross, for example, has a long history that pre-dates the rise of the National Socialists, if I recall correctly. The swastika IMHO is a uniquely disturbing symbol because it is seen as representing ONLY a negative, unlike the Confederate Flag, which, while to many it represents slavery and oppression, to many others it symbolizes positive Southern ante-Bellum values - gallantry, honor, and chivalry. The swastika does not really have that duality (unless you're a Nazi, of course). The swastika represents only a brutal and horrific regime that committed some of the most heinous acts ever perpetrated. It is locked in with that one single thought more than the other symbols of the war. The Rising Sun has been Japan's symbol for generations, so the terrible Mongolian Experiments are but a PART of it's history, not the entirety of it. Does that make sense? So I think that treating the swastika like the other symbols is a bit off as a comparison. It is more akin to the burning cross of the Klan than the Hammer and Sickle of Russia, or the Star and Crescent. Btw, I used the picture of the model because the only other good picture linked to a disreputable guitar dealer.

 

 

I agree in general, and really the swastika isn't even a symbol that appears in European symbolism much. If you're of european ancestry or from "the west," its meaning is pretty obvious and even if you were into nazism you'd be an idiot to parade it around. It has only negative, offensive connotations. I do think outlawing symbols and images is absurd, though.

 

My point about the comparison to symbols used by other terrible regimes is that the stronger association with the swastika is the result of conditioning and politics. Most people don't even know the scale of misery and death in the Soviet Union, particularly during Stalin's time, or how about Mao's cultural revolution? Hell, the red army bragged that its soldiers raped every german woman in the areas they overran. Kurt Vonnegut said in one of his memoirs that the Soviet soldiers complimented the US military for the total destruction of Dresden, which was a civilian target mostly full of women children and old men. That is a mentality of death and destruction. Hell, at least Von Choltitz refused Hitler's order to burn Paris.

 

It seems to me that power and ideology are the things that should be offensive. Ideology, whether it is Marxist or whatever, is like the new religion. Its religion for the irreligious, complete with holy wars and inquisitions.

[Megadeth Man]

Are you ready to accept the type of victor's justice you advocate?

 

What? I have not advocated any such thing.

[germs]

7 pages in and this has dissolved into a debate about "motive"?

 

I swear, I've never seen such a bleeding-heart group of individuals...

 

The dude painted a swastika on his guitar for accuracy. Big friggin' deal. If he had painted this guitar in such a manner in order to play on stage with his White Supremacist group...perhaps you MIGHT have some justification as to carry on like this.

 

Otherwise, let the guy alone. The guitar looks good. And anyone with half a brain can recognize that it's a military theme. Nothing more.

 

Sometimes a bananna is just a bananna, ya know?

[bigdaddyd]

 

No it's not. It is in fact correct. There are plenty of people who were Nazi party members to keep their jobs as postmen, local magistrates, etc. on the home front who very well could have had no idea what was going on other places. There's no free press. There are rumors, but nothing can be substantiated. Recall that most death camps were located outside of Germany and for a very good reason. Willful ignorance is not looking at something too close for fear of what you'll actually find. There are undoubtedly a lot of people who didn't want to look close enough to know if rumors were really true or not, so they didn't know. (Even if they looked, there was no way for them to substantiate anything as mentioned above, so they still don't really know. They may suspect, but don't know.) Maybe they should have known, but that's an entirely different issue. That's willful ignorance. (I'm not making any judgments on guilt or innocence as a result of said ignorance, whether willful or not.) As I said before, that is very common in a dictatorship where the people know that even if they figure out something horrible is going on, there's nothing they can do about it. Also, the entire idea of the death camps was so preposterous on the surface that many people took a long time to believe it. Even when the initial reports of discovering them were passed up the chain of command most of the US brass didn't believe it or thought it was completely exaggerated until they went to see them for themselves. That's why Eisenhower had so many troops and German citizens pass through the camps. He knew that many wouldn't believe if because the idea was taken completely beyond anything any reasonable human (from any locale - even Germany) would believe without very solid proof. What bothers me most about people's perception of Nazism and everything that went with it, is the attempt to cast them as some sort of boogie man or inhuman monster to explain them. That misses the point completely. What makes them so evil and so worth understanding (to some extent) is that for the most part they were just normal people like us trying to do what was best for their families, themselves, and their country. That's why I tend to find offense when people try to lump all them together as some big nonhuman entity. When they do that, they lose the lesson we need to learn from this period of history, which is how easy it is for good intentioned people to support something so evil. Sorry, but I just find the whole "you'll get beat up for doing X, Y, Z" incredibly lame when we know in real life people don't drop the gloves that quickly. Maybe someone gets offended, but face-to-face people usually find more mature ways of dealing with it than just taking swings at a stranger.

 

 

First of all, i don't know in what reality you live in, but if that is what you need to tell yourself to get on with life that so be it. We can agree to disagree. As far as I see it, you are making my point. To look another way, when you know what is going on just to not "see" what you don't want to see is ridiculous. That is exactly what I am saying. If people were putting up with what was going on to keep their mail jobs and were ok with killing people for it, well then they should burn in hell. That is my feeling. There is a very famous Jewish family that sold out other Jews to the Nazis for their art collections and now are huge art dealers. They are very famous now and many people "forget" their past. They should burn in hell too. They turned a blind eye back then for their reasons as well. Their reasons were $$$$$. As for the tough guy thing....I live in NYC and see that {censored} every day. I don't know where you live. Watch the news. People die everyday for stupid violent {censored}. You don't think something like this could cause violence? America's Most Wanted had some guy on this weekend who set his roommate on fire because he kept touching the thermostat. I think you are wrong. Sorry.

[wok]

7 pages in and this has dissolved into a debate about "motive"? I swear, I've never seen such a bleeding-heart group of individuals... The dude painted a swastika on his guitar for accuracy. Big friggin' deal. If he had painted this guitar in such a manner in order to play on stage with his White Supremacist group...perhaps you MIGHT have some justification as to carry on like this. Otherwise, let the guy alone. The guitar looks good. And anyone with half a brain can recognize that it's a military theme. Nothing more. Sometimes a bananna is just a bananna, ya know?

 

 

so if i had a guitar with burning crosses inlays it wouldn't be offensive because i am part-asian so i can't possibly be a KKK member?

 

indeed, sometimes a banana is just a banana: a nazi-symbol is a nazi-symbol, no matter who uses it or how you package it. If you can't uderstand that there are plenty of people who take offense...

[bigdaddyd]

so if i had a guitar with burning crosses inlays it wouldn't be offensive because i am part-asian so i can't possibly be a KKK member? indeed, sometimes a banana is just a banana: a nazi-symbol is a nazi-symbol, no matter who uses it or how you package it. If you can't uderstand that there are plenty of people who take offense...

 

Please Wok, you can't respond to a fool. He will always be a fool. Someone that needs this explained to him is just hopeless.

[Hardtail]

 

I considered that. But the CONTEXT here is unmistakable. HOWEVER The ESP/Lynch Kamikaze could be taken just as offensively. So can the crucifix for that matter. In the end, I'm with you. We should quit being so sensitive.

 

 

Equating the crucifix to the svastika or rising sun ?? Don't see that logic at all - the underlying theme of it & what it represents is peace. Don't want to start a religious debate, but two are political symbols, one religious.

 

HT (BTW ... smokin' axe man - great paint, just don't be surprised by some very strong reactions...)

[Kenny Powers]

7 pages in and this has dissolved into a debate about "motive"? I swear, I've never seen such a bleeding-heart group of individuals... The dude painted a swastika on his guitar for accuracy . Big friggin' deal. If he had painted this guitar in such a manner in order to play on stage with his White Supremacist group...perhaps you MIGHT have some justification as to carry on like this. Otherwise, let the guy alone. The guitar looks good. And anyone with half a brain can recognize that it's a military theme. Nothing more. Sometimes a bananna is just a bananna, ya know?

 

 

bull {censored}ing {censored}. look at the neck, fretboard and headstock...

[DeathMonkey]

I agree, the lesson here is the subtle and frightening ease with which a population can be led into truly horrifying places.

 

How many Germans knew that they had to toe the line, or they would end up in the camps themselves? How many truly feared for their lives? Germans were just as {censored}ing human as the rest of us. Some chose to believe that their beloved Fatherland could never do such things - a sentiment that was played up by the SS propaganda, especially outside the cities.

 

How many Americans refuse to think of the {censored} going on in OUR country? The willful ignorance, the blind eye. It's a human response. Especially when driven by a propagandist agenda. It's not like they all woke up one day and started throwing Jews into the fire. Look at what has happened in the US since 9/11. Things we would have revolted against 9 years ago are now common place. I'm not equating us to Nazis, just illustrating how a people can be led piece by piece into accepting the unacceptable.

 

It's a part of human nature, a part we need to remember and guard against. Dismissing it to some extent to paint all Germans as monsters hides the truth that we've seen the exact same groupthink in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Soviet Russia, and other monolithic groups that one day realize they have been led to a very, very dark place.

 

I've been a World War II buff since I was a kid. I've had the great fortune to talk to both Holocaust Survivors and Germans who lived during that time. The horrors and complexities of the time, the subtleties and nuances of how a people were led into such atrocities, inch by inch, manipulated and cajoled step by seemingly harmless step demand a far more comprehensive gestalt than a simple black-or-white judgment.

[fretless]

 

I agree, the lesson here is the subtle and frightening ease with which a population can be led into truly horrifying places. How many Germans knew that they had to toe the line, or they would end up in the camps themselves? How many truly feared for their lives? Germans were just as {censored}ing human as the rest of us. Some chose to believe that their beloved Fatherland could never do such things - a sentiment that was played up by the SS propaganda, especially outside the cities. How many Americans refuse to think of the {censored} going on in OUR country? The willful ignorance, the blind eye. It's a human response. Especially when driven by a propagandist agenda. It's not like they all woke up one day and started throwing Jews into the fire. Look at what has happened in the US since 9/11. Things we would have revolted against 9 years ago are now common place. I'm not equating us to Nazis, just illustrating how a people can be led piece by piece into accepting the unacceptable. It's a part of human nature, a part we need to remember and guard against. Dismissing it to some extent to paint all Germans as monsters hides the truth that we've seen the exact same groupthink in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Soviet Russia, and other monolithic groups that one day realize they have been led to a very, very dark place. I've been a World War II buff since I was a kid. I've had the great fortune to talk to both Holocaust Survivors and Germans who lived during that time. The horrors and complexities of the time, the subtleties and nuances of how a people were led into such atrocities, inch by inch, manipulated and cajoled step by seemingly harmless step demand a far more comprehensive gestalt than a simple black-or-white judgment.

 

 

 

this is by far the best post I have read in this thread . Thank you , I would like to apologize to any whom I may have offended with my quick and ignorant post be it right or wrong . OP all the best . And Cheers to all .

[RMS]

Its terrible enough putting people into camps and forcing them to work, for sure (bear in mind executive orders have existed for decades in the US that gives the president the right to use the military to round us up into camps).

 

The US did put Japanese Americans in camps during WWII, as I'm sure you know. The majority of people who paid attention to it agreed that it was best to do this, so as to not take any chances and for their own good to protect them. However, most of the population paid no attention (especially if not on the West Coast or Hawaii) because they were too busy with rumors of landings on Hawaii, Alaska, or the West Coast, or were dealing with their own contributions, including sons, fathers, brothers, headed off to potentially get killed in war. All of that is with a completely free press and a multi-generations of the freedom to say whatever they wanted, but everyone had other issues to contend with that were more pressing.

 

If things had gone bad in the war and those in internment camps (being the victors, we get to pick the terminology ) had been neglected due to loss of infrastructure or a general lack of food, how guilty was the President of the US? How guilty are all of the people in the country as a whole? How about all Democrats being in the same party as the President or all the voters who voted for him in 1932, 1936, or 1940? How does that change if someone in the administration decides that in the longterm, "to keep this from happening again", to kill those internees? How much attention do you think the average person on the home front spends think about this (the actuality or the potentiality, either one) when they're working double-shifts to support the war front, tending a garden at home for vegetables, dealing with rationed everything, and wondering constantly what's really happening to their loved ones at the front. Even if rumors are floating around, who has time to really think about them, and rumors are a dime a dozen (even in the relatively safety of the US) during the war, so nobody really knows what's really true and what's not.

 

As to the comment on Mein Kampf, it certainly had much obvious antisemitism in it, but did not directly deal with mass murder as a solution. That was arrived at much later, after the war was underway. Also none of mine is some sort of apology for anything. It's simple acknowledgeable of the actual facts of the situation. I'm not even saying that people ignorance should exempt them from guilt, but it most definitely was there. When it wasn't, there really wasn't a whole lot any of them can do about it.

[DeathMonkey]

I'm not even saying that people ignorance should exempt them from guilt, but it most definitely was there. When it wasn't, there really wasn't a whole lot any of them can do about it.

 

You have some interesting points. Didn't Hitler get his anti-semitism from reading Marx?

 

I think it was tricky to discern, especially in the heat of the end of a long and terrible war - those who genuinely were unaware (or not willing to accept) what was going on, and those hiding behind, as was stated earlier, the "I was following orders". I cannot imagine truly getting to a clear picture of culpability in those circumstances.

 

You know, this is what the PC bull{censored} does that drives me crazy - it shuts down discussion. Pro-PC people would leave it at "you're a {censored}ing Nazi!", anti-PC people would leave it at "dude can do whatever he wants, {censored} off!". Instead, we have a lively and really interesting discussion, where while we might not all agree, there is more in our brains than there was when we woke up this morning.

 

[jaytee123]

 

Bull {censored} they were mass murders and knew exactly what they were doing . May they all burn in hell .

 

 

And you suck the caulk. I base that on the same reasoning you used, moron.

 

Enjoy your cum steak.

[fretless]

 

And you suck the caulk. I base that on the same reasoning you used, moron. Enjoy your cum steak.

 

 

{censored} off rapist

[jaytee123]

No offense, but if your relatives were members of the Nazi party and didn't know what was going on, they were either stupid, in denial, or lying to you. It is a shame that you feel it necessary to even bring it up as a defense. It almost makes the opposite point. So many deaths and members of the party responbile were unaware, and oh, here is a guitar symbolizing the event...rock on. I don't know what is sadder, the op, or the fact the you use this is your defense of him. Sort of like saying, my family is in the Klan, but they thought the meetings were for talk about bed linens.

This applies to anyone in this country doesn't it?

 

And we dont get off scott free either. Boatloats of Jewish refugees came to the U.S. only to be turned back to the slaugher. If you didnt know this, they were either stupid, in denial, or lying to you.

 

With the amount of ignorance in this country nowadays, how dare you take the high horse concerning my argument.

 

There's lots of stuff our government does that we do not know about. Does that make every one of us stupid, in denial, or liars?

 

So you purport that everyone in the nazi party knew that jews were getting slaughtered?

 

Get your head out of your ass. Theres plenty of logic and fresh air in the real world.

 

You get your information out of books. I got it firsthand, unless you think every single german who lived through that time is brainwashed.

[jaytee123]

 

Time erases everything, and eventually the swastika will go back to meaning little or nothing, or be forgotten altogether. I don't doubt the Romans or Napoleon or any other conquering force used symbols as well but we are so many generations removed from their victims they are no longer considered offensive. However, speaking as someone who was raised a Jew, I can tell you that the phrase "too soon" still applies here. The swastika, to people like my mother or her brother, signifies the mass killing of many of her relatives and friends. I'm too many generations removed from the Holocaust to find the swastika to be instantly offensive, so to me it isn't. But again, even though it happened many year ago, many many people out there are sickened by the appearance of a swastika and for very good reason.

 

 

But where does the symbolism stop?

I mean, what if I find the appearance of the word "GOD" on the dollar bill, the confederate flag..etc. should we ban those?

 

 

Symbolism takes away from anything we try to accomplish. We try to eradicate a symbol rather than the problem that spawned it.

[Bobby D]

This is, quite simply, one of the most intelligent and erudite posts I have ever read on HCAF. I guess you really can't tell the book by the avatar...

 

 

I agree, the lesson here is the subtle and frightening ease with which a population can be led into truly horrifying places. How many Germans knew that they had to toe the line, or they would end up in the camps themselves? How many truly feared for their lives? Germans were just as {censored}ing human as the rest of us. Some chose to believe that their beloved Fatherland could never do such things - a sentiment that was played up by the SS propaganda, especially outside the cities. How many Americans refuse to think of the {censored} going on in OUR country? The willful ignorance, the blind eye. It's a human response. Especially when driven by a propagandist agenda. It's not like they all woke up one day and started throwing Jews into the fire. Look at what has happened in the US since 9/11. Things we would have revolted against 9 years ago are now common place. I'm not equating us to Nazis, just illustrating how a people can be led piece by piece into accepting the unacceptable. It's a part of human nature, a part we need to remember and guard against. Dismissing it to some extent to paint all Germans as monsters hides the truth that we've seen the exact same groupthink in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Soviet Russia, and other monolithic groups that one day realize they have been led to a very, very dark place. I've been a World War II buff since I was a kid. I've had the great fortune to talk to both Holocaust Survivors and Germans who lived during that time. The horrors and complexities of the time, the subtleties and nuances of how a people were led into such atrocities, inch by inch, manipulated and cajoled step by seemingly harmless step demand a far more comprehensive gestalt than a simple black-or-white judgment.

[missingastring]

This is, quite simply, one of the most intelligent and erudite posts I have ever read on HCAF. I guess you really can't tell the book by the avatar...

 

Such is DeathMonkey.

 

If you lifted up his kilt, you'd see me swinging from his cock at least 50% of the time.

[RMS]

 

You have some interesting points. Didn't Hitler get his anti-semitism from reading Marx?

 

 

It could have been from a variety of sources. I really haven't read anything on the specifics of where Hitler got his original ideas. I'm more interested in where the ideas he had led. It was already deep seated throughout Europe. One thing conveniently forgotten after the war is that many Westerners (US, UK, amongst others) admired how Hitler "handled his Jews" before the war. The whole master race is deep seated in Germany long before Hitler. It's part of the driving force (or excuse) for uniting the various German speaking peoples under Prussia in the 19th Century. Jews just make a convenient scape goat.

 

 

I think it was tricky to discern, especially in the heat of the end of a long and terrible war - those who genuinely were unaware (or not willing to accept) what was going on, and those hiding behind, as was stated earlier, the "I was following orders". I cannot imagine truly getting to a clear picture of culpability in those circumstances.

 

 

Absolutely. Plus, like I said above "not knowing" and "knowing but feeling powerless to do anything about it" produce the same result. I think we did right by going after the people towards the top and letting most of the rest put their lives back together. Plus, the Soviets exacted far more revenge than we could have ever hoped too under our systems, and it didn't seem to help anyone out. It certainly didn't bring anyone back from the dead. It just produced more widows and orphans.

 

For someone low enough down I can even see where the "I was following orders" is really the only option. Someone is going to do it, so you save no lives by refusing. Refusing just gets you tried, convicted, and most likely killed. Plus, it has serious ramifications for your family at home: being turned out and loosing support being very likely.

 

 

You know, this is what the PC bull{censored} does that drives me crazy - it shuts down discussion. Pro-PC people would leave it at "you're a {censored}ing Nazi!", anti-PC people would leave it at "dude can do whatever he wants, {censored} off!". Instead, we have a lively and really interesting discussion, where while we might not all agree, there is more in our brains than there was when we woke up this morning.

 

 

Agreed. I think it's very important to discuss these types of tough issues and think about them. It's easy to throw blame around, but if you're honest you have to admit that these people made decisions that had all bad outcomes in a situation none of us have ever faced, and hopefully will never have to! I've read several biographies of common Germans (solders and home front) during the war, and one thing that's common to most of them is the tide that sweeps them up and carries them along and they all feel helpless to do anything about it.

[bigdaddyd]

 

This applies to anyone in this country doesn't it? And we dont get off scott free either. Boatloats of Jewish refugees came to the U.S. only to be turned back to the slaugher. If you didnt know this, they were either stupid, in denial, or lying to you. With the amount of ignorance in this country nowadays, how dare you take the high horse concerning my argument. There's lots of stuff our government does that we do not know about. Does that make every one of us stupid, in denial, or liars? So you purport that everyone in the nazi party knew that jews were getting slaughtered? Get your head out of your ass. Theres plenty of logic and fresh air in the real world. You get your information out of books. I got it firsthand, unless you think every single german who lived through that time is brainwashed.

 

 

This is not what I said. Of course our gov, has perpetrated horrific events and to think otherwise would be silly. To compare our government to the Nazi party and the atrocities of the Holocaust, however, would just be inane. For you to not be able to see the difference is ludicrous, and I truly feel sad for you to not understand what freedom really is. It may not be perfect but it isn't Nazi Germany.

[bigdaddyd]

 

But where does the symbolism stop? I mean, what if I find the appearance of the word "GOD" on the dollar bill, the confederate flag..etc. should we ban those? Symbolism takes away from anything we try to accomplish. We try to eradicate a symbol rather than the problem that spawned it.

 

 

no one said ban anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't expect certain reactions when people see it.