Members NinjaRaf Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by pioneerprogress I agree to a point but I think a lot of folks' issue with them, like mine, is probably pricing. Because if I'd have to buy 2-3 tubes to make up for the cost difference of one of these tube replacements, I'd rather just buy the tubes. I so rarely change tubes, and honestly most folks are probably the same way: they get replaced when they fail, or are showing signs of potentially failing. The only real market they have at their current pricing is for musicians who are on the road all year long. If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Well, IME, my 5150 212 eats preamp tubes like crazy. Itd be worth it, for me, to buy a set for it because it does go through tubes fairly frequently, especially if you move the amp around in any frequency. Im not the only person thats found that, too, with this particular amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NinjaRaf Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by pioneerprogress I agree to a point but I think a lot of folks' issue with them, like mine, is probably pricing. Because if I'd have to buy 2-3 tubes to make up for the cost difference of one of these tube replacements, I'd rather just buy the tubes. I so rarely change tubes, and honestly most folks are probably the same way: they get replaced when they fail, or are showing signs of potentially failing. The only real market they have at their current pricing is for musicians who are on the road all year long. If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Well, IME, my 5150 212 eats preamp tubes like crazy. Itd be worth it, for me, to buy a set for it because it does go through tubes fairly frequently, especially if you move the amp around in any frequency. Im not the only person thats found that, too, with this particular amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by apophis You can tell which is which by playing them...which is what actual gigging guitarists look for in tubes...recorded maybe they sound similar but the actual "feel" is what makes the difference....of course bedroom players would not be able to know, since they probably cant play loud enough to actually appreciate power tube breakup I've been playing for over twenty years have have had many dozens of amps and I can't tell the difference. Tell me what unit of time we are talking about? A picosecond? Attosecond? Human nerve speed travels between 1 to 20 meters per second. http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes2.htm the speed of light in a vacuum is 299,337,984 meters per second so if we figure the difference in transmission speed between a solidstate device a tube device to be as much a factor of 10 million or so (way exaggerated) then you are still looking at a difference WAY the {censored} beyond human capacity. Tell me again how you can feel a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by apophis You can tell which is which by playing them...which is what actual gigging guitarists look for in tubes...recorded maybe they sound similar but the actual "feel" is what makes the difference....of course bedroom players would not be able to know, since they probably cant play loud enough to actually appreciate power tube breakup I've been playing for over twenty years have have had many dozens of amps and I can't tell the difference. Tell me what unit of time we are talking about? A picosecond? Attosecond? Human nerve speed travels between 1 to 20 meters per second. http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes2.htm the speed of light in a vacuum is 299,337,984 meters per second so if we figure the difference in transmission speed between a solidstate device a tube device to be as much a factor of 10 million or so (way exaggerated) then you are still looking at a difference WAY the {censored} beyond human capacity. Tell me again how you can feel a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lucius Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I've been playing for over twenty years have have had many dozens of amps and I can't tell the difference. Tell me what unit of time we are talking about? A picosecond? Attosecond? Human nerve speed travels between 1 to 20 meters per second. http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes2.htm the speed of light in a vacuum is 299,337,984 meters per second so if we figure the difference in transmission speed between a solidstate device a tube device to be as much a factor of 10 million or so (way exaggerated) then you are still looking at a difference WAY the {censored} beyond human capacity. Tell me again how you can feel a difference? Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lucius Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I've been playing for over twenty years have have had many dozens of amps and I can't tell the difference. Tell me what unit of time we are talking about? A picosecond? Attosecond? Human nerve speed travels between 1 to 20 meters per second. http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes2.htm the speed of light in a vacuum is 299,337,984 meters per second so if we figure the difference in transmission speed between a solidstate device a tube device to be as much a factor of 10 million or so (way exaggerated) then you are still looking at a difference WAY the {censored} beyond human capacity. Tell me again how you can feel a difference? Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements).You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response.As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements).You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response.As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members apophis Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius yeah , im talking about sag...ive played a lot of different setups...ss preamps w/ tube power amps, tube preamps with ss power amps, all tube heads, all ss heads,digital heads , you name it... you can really feel the difference in all setups...it's not latency....its a sag which i suppose is the extra harmonics a tube produces? Also headroom and power amp breakup at high volumes..I really like a GOOD ss preamp into a good tube power amp, but still prefer certain tube heads(quality matters of course).Im no tech expert,so you are wasting your time talking about the speed of light blabla, im just talking about what i feel when playing different setups, and what i prefer...just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members apophis Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius yeah , im talking about sag...ive played a lot of different setups...ss preamps w/ tube power amps, tube preamps with ss power amps, all tube heads, all ss heads,digital heads , you name it... you can really feel the difference in all setups...it's not latency....its a sag which i suppose is the extra harmonics a tube produces? Also headroom and power amp breakup at high volumes..I really like a GOOD ss preamp into a good tube power amp, but still prefer certain tube heads(quality matters of course).Im no tech expert,so you are wasting your time talking about the speed of light blabla, im just talking about what i feel when playing different setups, and what i prefer...just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drewl Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 But can they withstand an EMP blast like a tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drewl Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 But can they withstand an EMP blast like a tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pioneerprogress Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements). You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response. As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. WAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pioneerprogress Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements). You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response. As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. WAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius I was talking about solid state vs tube amps. I don't doubt that there is some latency in A to D and D to A converters but it would vary between the design of the components. For the fun of it lets assume the latency in a solid state preamp was 5ms which is about the threshold of human detection http://jn.physiology.org/content/92/4/2239.full If we assume the air is 70F or 21C then sound will travel 1229 ft/s (344 m/s) which means that you could move 5' closer to the speaker from where ever you were and make up for the latency. That is assuming that we could perceive the latency down to 0ms. Otherwise we could move 2.5 ft closer to the speaker and bring it down to a latency of 2.5ms which is said to be undetectable. You could also cut down on latency a very tiny bit by using a shorter cable. You'll shave off about a ns for every foot of cable you remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Are we talking strictly SS amps and not digital? SS amps I can't tell a difference at all. With Digital (pre)amps I can definately tell a difference. Referring to the "feel" of it which is likely latency related. Cheers, Lucius I was talking about solid state vs tube amps. I don't doubt that there is some latency in A to D and D to A converters but it would vary between the design of the components. For the fun of it lets assume the latency in a solid state preamp was 5ms which is about the threshold of human detection http://jn.physiology.org/content/92/4/2239.full If we assume the air is 70F or 21C then sound will travel 1229 ft/s (344 m/s) which means that you could move 5' closer to the speaker from where ever you were and make up for the latency. That is assuming that we could perceive the latency down to 0ms. Otherwise we could move 2.5 ft closer to the speaker and bring it down to a latency of 2.5ms which is said to be undetectable. You could also cut down on latency a very tiny bit by using a shorter cable. You'll shave off about a ns for every foot of cable you remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by apophis yeah , im talking about sag...ive played a lot of different setups...ss preamps w/ tube power amps, tube preamps with ss power amps, all tube heads, all ss heads,digital heads , you name it... you can really feel the difference in all setups...it's not latency....its a sag which i suppose is the extra harmonics a tube produces? Also headroom and power amp breakup at high volumes..I really like a GOOD ss preamp into a good tube power amp, but still prefer certain tube heads(quality matters of course).Im no tech expert,so you are wasting your time talking about the speed of light blabla, im just talking about what i feel when playing different setups, and what i prefer...just my 2 cents Understood, for the record I like tube amps too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by apophis yeah , im talking about sag...ive played a lot of different setups...ss preamps w/ tube power amps, tube preamps with ss power amps, all tube heads, all ss heads,digital heads , you name it... you can really feel the difference in all setups...it's not latency....its a sag which i suppose is the extra harmonics a tube produces? Also headroom and power amp breakup at high volumes..I really like a GOOD ss preamp into a good tube power amp, but still prefer certain tube heads(quality matters of course).Im no tech expert,so you are wasting your time talking about the speed of light blabla, im just talking about what i feel when playing different setups, and what i prefer...just my 2 cents Understood, for the record I like tube amps too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements). You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response. As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. The market probably isn't very big to begin with so I agree, they'll probably have an up hill battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk Think? That effectively means these things wouldn't generate the same "ZOMG must have them nao!!!" -response like cryogenicallysnakeoiltreatedgoldplatednoswhatever tubes (which, BTW, cost ludicrously more than usual generic replacements). You realize that what you're saying is basically equivalent to saying "I'd maybe consider buying that if it was as cheap as the cheapest solid-state amps on the market", while discussing about a $4K boutique tube amp. ...Quite far from the "must have" response. As I said, they will fail in the market unless the market totally changes their attitude towards such products. I don't see it happening in the nearby future. The market probably isn't very big to begin with so I agree, they'll probably have an up hill battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by drewl But can they withstand an EMP blast like a tube? Not this myth again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by drewl But can they withstand an EMP blast like a tube? Not this myth again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blakkwater Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 what they need to do give it a sound that is highly desirable, and pitch it at a price that makes sense for that quality and sound compared to the other tube offerings on the market. Arbitrarily setting a huge price for something that almost the entire guitar community is wary about will just dissuade people from buying/trying it. Much like the Seymour Duncan Zephyr pickups - technically completely different than your average pickup, but since the price is so drastically high, i'll wager they've sold very few sets of them. Not enough to make a significant impact on the market. Bottom line...for this idea to have any success at all, the two most important factors will be price and sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blakkwater Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 what they need to do give it a sound that is highly desirable, and pitch it at a price that makes sense for that quality and sound compared to the other tube offerings on the market. Arbitrarily setting a huge price for something that almost the entire guitar community is wary about will just dissuade people from buying/trying it. Much like the Seymour Duncan Zephyr pickups - technically completely different than your average pickup, but since the price is so drastically high, i'll wager they've sold very few sets of them. Not enough to make a significant impact on the market. Bottom line...for this idea to have any success at all, the two most important factors will be price and sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 So they should basically hand them out for free... why?People pay considerable sums of money for tube replacements, whether they are a neccessity or just a result of joys of swapping things around. Folks immediately taking the bias that solid-state "special tubes" should cost less or only the price of any other generic tube is just one symptom of the underlying attitude that ensures these products always fail in the markets.It's a niche product, expect to pay accordingly. They surely won't sell a lot of these for starters, yet the investors are probably expecting them to generate some profit. Low volume of sales with low revenue will ensure such products are withdrawn from production in an eyeblink.Bottom line...for this idea to have any success at all, the important factor is that people must be convinced that they really need such product. Kinda like a huge mass is convinced that they need to have tubes in their amps. Then they'll pay almost any price. Sound has rarely ever been an issue. For all it's worth, looks always seem to pay a more important role. I sure can't recall much on topic commentary about tone of Retrovalves or Wattgrinders for instance... Much better looking than retrovalves. It's kind of silly, but that means a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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