Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by apophis i find it kind of weird...to make your tube amp react like a SS :/ ...kind of counter productive I think it would be an interesting experiment to record and amp with tubes then record the same thing with the SS replacement tubes and see how many on here could tell which is which.An even better experiment would be to have someone play two of the same amp, one with tubes and one with replacement tubes and then see which one reacts like a solid state amp. It'd be amazing to hear a player say "oop, gotta be this one, it reacts 6 femtoseconds faster than the other one." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Hardvalve This has been tried over and over and over and over and..............................None have been successful yet..... Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Hardvalve This has been tried over and over and over and over and..............................None have been successful yet..... Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Naw Jet City is licensing someone elses design (Retrovalves maybe?) They are manufacturing and selling the Roberts Retrovalve. Yep, Soldano had nothing to do with their design.Wake me up when Jet City amps come with these things as stock and real tubes are only a custom option. That would actually be a sign of them believing into their own products.But yeah, we all know, it's a commercial suicide to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members teemuk Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Naw Jet City is licensing someone elses design (Retrovalves maybe?) They are manufacturing and selling the Roberts Retrovalve. Yep, Soldano had nothing to do with their design.Wake me up when Jet City amps come with these things as stock and real tubes are only a custom option. That would actually be a sign of them believing into their own products.But yeah, we all know, it's a commercial suicide to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NinjaRaf Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I think it would be an interesting experiment to record and amp with tubes then record the same thing with the SS replacement tubes and see how many on here could tell which is which.An even better experiment would be to have someone play two of the same amp, one with tubes and one with replacement tubes and then see which one reacts like a solid state amp. It'd be amazing to hear a player say "oop, gotta be this one, it reacts 6 femtoseconds faster than the other one." I dont think most people could tell the difference between modeler, SS, or tube on a professional recording, or even live assuming all are pretty high quality pieces of gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NinjaRaf Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I think it would be an interesting experiment to record and amp with tubes then record the same thing with the SS replacement tubes and see how many on here could tell which is which.An even better experiment would be to have someone play two of the same amp, one with tubes and one with replacement tubes and then see which one reacts like a solid state amp. It'd be amazing to hear a player say "oop, gotta be this one, it reacts 6 femtoseconds faster than the other one." I dont think most people could tell the difference between modeler, SS, or tube on a professional recording, or even live assuming all are pretty high quality pieces of gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lucius Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Huh? none of these companies have produced a direct tube replacement technology? Fractal doesn't even produce power amps. Cheers, Lucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lucius Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Huh? none of these companies have produced a direct tube replacement technology? Fractal doesn't even produce power amps. Cheers, Lucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Northstar Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Interesting, but do they glow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Northstar Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Interesting, but do they glow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Huh? none of these companies have produced a direct tube replacement technology? Fractal doesn't even produce power amps. Cheers, Lucius They produce tube emulation devices and I believe many do use them in place of tube amps.The AMT devices in question aren't power amps either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Lucius Huh? none of these companies have produced a direct tube replacement technology? Fractal doesn't even produce power amps. Cheers, Lucius They produce tube emulation devices and I believe many do use them in place of tube amps.The AMT devices in question aren't power amps either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Well, digital is quite a bit different. The ideal is to use software algorithms, and maybe some fuzzy logic, to dial in a little of that organic randomness and inefficiency you get with vacuum tubes. The sonic appeal to tubes is they are horrible at doing their job, and their short-comings make them more organic and natural sounding to us, less sterile and less ear fatiguing.It's harder to do that with analog SS components because they are just so damn efficient at doing the same job over and over and over again. It's one of the reasons SS amps had really been mired for decades while digital sims has taken off. But more and more, companies are now taking the amp-in-a-box effects like Menatone, Tech21, OLC, which are based around matching certain transistors to certain tubes based on tone and behavior.Research is great, "a rising tide raises all boats," but there has never been a demand or market for plug-in vacuum tube replacements, people who want tubes...want tubes...and those who don't want to deal with them buy SS analog or digital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge Line6, Fractal and Kemper are solid state devices and they've had some success. Well, digital is quite a bit different. The ideal is to use software algorithms, and maybe some fuzzy logic, to dial in a little of that organic randomness and inefficiency you get with vacuum tubes. The sonic appeal to tubes is they are horrible at doing their job, and their short-comings make them more organic and natural sounding to us, less sterile and less ear fatiguing.It's harder to do that with analog SS components because they are just so damn efficient at doing the same job over and over and over again. It's one of the reasons SS amps had really been mired for decades while digital sims has taken off. But more and more, companies are now taking the amp-in-a-box effects like Menatone, Tech21, OLC, which are based around matching certain transistors to certain tubes based on tone and behavior.Research is great, "a rising tide raises all boats," but there has never been a demand or market for plug-in vacuum tube replacements, people who want tubes...want tubes...and those who don't want to deal with them buy SS analog or digital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by NinjaRaf I dont think most people could tell the difference between modeler, SS, or tube on a professional recording, or even live assuming all are pretty high quality pieces of gear... I can't imagine they could either. People speak of feel however it's hard for me to imagine they'd be able to tell a difference in that either. Consider that our eyes have a very short path to our brains yet most of us don't notice the frame changes in video which are around a 30th of a second in duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by NinjaRaf I dont think most people could tell the difference between modeler, SS, or tube on a professional recording, or even live assuming all are pretty high quality pieces of gear... I can't imagine they could either. People speak of feel however it's hard for me to imagine they'd be able to tell a difference in that either. Consider that our eyes have a very short path to our brains yet most of us don't notice the frame changes in video which are around a 30th of a second in duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Wyatt Well, digital is quite a bit different. The ideal is to use software algorithms, and maybe some fuzzy logic, to dial in a little of that organic randomness and inefficiency you get with vacuum tubes. The sonic appeal to tubes is they are horrible at doing their job, and their short-comings make more organic and natural sounding to us, less sterile and less ear fatiguing.It's harder to do that with analog SS components because they are just so damn efficient at doing the same job over and over and over again. It's one of the reasons SS amps had really been mired for decades while digital sims has taken off. But ore and more, companies are now taking the amp-in-a-box effects like Menatone, Tech21, OLC, which are based around matching certain transistors to certain tubes base don tone and behavior.Research is great, "a rising tide raises all boats," but there has never been a demand or market for plug-in vacuum tube replacements, people who want tubes...want tubes and those who don't want to deal with them buy SS analog or digital. OK, That makes sense. My apologies to Lucius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Wyatt Well, digital is quite a bit different. The ideal is to use software algorithms, and maybe some fuzzy logic, to dial in a little of that organic randomness and inefficiency you get with vacuum tubes. The sonic appeal to tubes is they are horrible at doing their job, and their short-comings make more organic and natural sounding to us, less sterile and less ear fatiguing.It's harder to do that with analog SS components because they are just so damn efficient at doing the same job over and over and over again. It's one of the reasons SS amps had really been mired for decades while digital sims has taken off. But ore and more, companies are now taking the amp-in-a-box effects like Menatone, Tech21, OLC, which are based around matching certain transistors to certain tubes base don tone and behavior.Research is great, "a rising tide raises all boats," but there has never been a demand or market for plug-in vacuum tube replacements, people who want tubes...want tubes and those who don't want to deal with them buy SS analog or digital. OK, That makes sense. My apologies to Lucius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members apophis Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I think it would be an interesting experiment to record and amp with tubes then record the same thing with the SS replacement tubes and see how many on here could tell which is which.An even better experiment would be to have someone play two of the same amp, one with tubes and one with replacement tubes and then see which one reacts like a solid state amp. It'd be amazing to hear a player say "oop, gotta be this one, it reacts 6 femtoseconds faster than the other one." You can tell which is which by playing them...which is what actual gigging guitarists look for in tubes...recorded maybe they sound similar but the actual "feel" is what makes the difference....of course bedroom players would not be able to know, since they probably cant play loud enough to actually appreciate power tube breakup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members apophis Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by Miter Gauge I think it would be an interesting experiment to record and amp with tubes then record the same thing with the SS replacement tubes and see how many on here could tell which is which.An even better experiment would be to have someone play two of the same amp, one with tubes and one with replacement tubes and then see which one reacts like a solid state amp. It'd be amazing to hear a player say "oop, gotta be this one, it reacts 6 femtoseconds faster than the other one." You can tell which is which by playing them...which is what actual gigging guitarists look for in tubes...recorded maybe they sound similar but the actual "feel" is what makes the difference....of course bedroom players would not be able to know, since they probably cant play loud enough to actually appreciate power tube breakup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 100 watt Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'd try em. Im no purist. If it sounds good..use it. Only AMT stuff Ive tried is the Tube Magnum pedal I just got from Crunchtime on a trade deal. Im VERY impressed with it. I look forward to trying more AMT offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 100 watt Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'd try em. Im no purist. If it sounds good..use it. Only AMT stuff Ive tried is the Tube Magnum pedal I just got from Crunchtime on a trade deal. Im VERY impressed with it. I look forward to trying more AMT offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pioneerprogress Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk This technology has been worked to the point of it being equally good as any tube it's replacing. The success comes, not from excessive R&D, but from being able to make buying masses to think entirely different as they have done before. That's a lot more work - and way more difficult - than to design realistic tube replacements using SS technology and requires a way different skillset.I wager it won't happen yet again.Tube guys won't buy themSolid-state guys already have what they need in simpler packagesThe guys who don't care don't care about such product eitherIt's already in AMT products, for example. And their main ideas aren't too far off from, for example, what Peavey has been doing with their TransTube circuitry. Accurate tube emulations have been employed in solid-state amps for ages so why does anyone actually even need a tube amp today. ...even less, a tube amp with solid-state devices emulating tubes - like in solid-state amps. Despite being a total fail with musical instrument amps (and total WIN in all other applications) the FETRON has likely been the most successfull of these kinds of products. Ironically, it never tried to emulate the {censored}ty performance of tubes but flat out aimed to replace them with solid-state's linearity. A recipe that was total win for precision equipment, which were probably the only wortwhile market for such devices. Today pretty much all precision equipment is already solid-state, though. I agree to a point but I think a lot of folks' issue with them, like mine, is probably pricing.Because if I'd have to buy 2-3 tubes to make up for the cost difference of one of these tube replacements, I'd rather just buy the tubes. I so rarely change tubes, and honestly most folks are probably the same way: they get replaced when they fail, or are showing signs of potentially failing. The only real market they have at their current pricing is for musicians who are on the road all year long.If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pioneerprogress Posted September 12, 2012 Members Share Posted September 12, 2012 Originally Posted by teemuk This technology has been worked to the point of it being equally good as any tube it's replacing. The success comes, not from excessive R&D, but from being able to make buying masses to think entirely different as they have done before. That's a lot more work - and way more difficult - than to design realistic tube replacements using SS technology and requires a way different skillset.I wager it won't happen yet again.Tube guys won't buy themSolid-state guys already have what they need in simpler packagesThe guys who don't care don't care about such product eitherIt's already in AMT products, for example. And their main ideas aren't too far off from, for example, what Peavey has been doing with their TransTube circuitry. Accurate tube emulations have been employed in solid-state amps for ages so why does anyone actually even need a tube amp today. ...even less, a tube amp with solid-state devices emulating tubes - like in solid-state amps. Despite being a total fail with musical instrument amps (and total WIN in all other applications) the FETRON has likely been the most successfull of these kinds of products. Ironically, it never tried to emulate the {censored}ty performance of tubes but flat out aimed to replace them with solid-state's linearity. A recipe that was total win for precision equipment, which were probably the only wortwhile market for such devices. Today pretty much all precision equipment is already solid-state, though. I agree to a point but I think a lot of folks' issue with them, like mine, is probably pricing.Because if I'd have to buy 2-3 tubes to make up for the cost difference of one of these tube replacements, I'd rather just buy the tubes. I so rarely change tubes, and honestly most folks are probably the same way: they get replaced when they fail, or are showing signs of potentially failing. The only real market they have at their current pricing is for musicians who are on the road all year long.If their pricing was comparable to the actual tube they replace, I'd think a lot harder about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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