Michigan becomes another Right to Work state :-)

[mbarn3065]

Originally Posted by diocide

I'm going to make a broad generalization here.

I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are so antiunion are really stuck in horrible jobs themselves. Rather than look at their fellow coworkers and decide that they want to better themselves, they decided they must drag them down. Rather than try to better their own situation and be more like the workers that they seem to envy so much they've decided to villainize them. Rather than lift themselves up to others levels they would rather drag others down.

Seems like butthurtz of the highest degree.

This is what employers want. They want workers who are willing to cut each others throats just to make an extra buck, meanwhile they make 5.

This!

[Stevetemp]

Originally Posted by Rear Naked

This is probably an empirical question, but my intuition is that that is not correct.

Wages for a particular position are determined mostly by the regional market, not some comparison with other workers in the company. If the supply of chefs is low, the market wage for one will increase...but this shouldn't effect the pay of the restaurant manager.




Well its a bad idea to make statements like that. Its all going to be mostly based on the market...there is no SHOULD this or that.

BUT, I think what you're saying might happen as a result of culture of business. That {censored} happens sometimes. For example, salary for professors increases as they get older, even though their productivity as academics decreases as they age. This is a side effect of the general culture around it. If you reduce pay for old professors, everyone will be pissed even though it is perfectly reasonable and justifiable to do so.

Another example is how there is less loyalty between employees and employers (on both sides). The old-timer is more likely to be let go nowadays and people are more likely to switch employers. I've worked for my company for 1.5 years and have seen people come and go and come back again. This is because of the cultural environment of business now.

Basically you may be right, but its not because of some general rule of economics that it is so....its just that people dont always make economically sound decisions.

I was there. I know. There's no "basically" about it.

When you are talking about huge unions and corporations...that IS the culture. There IS no other "market". It's an entity all on it's own with little comparison or peer.

Sounds to me like you are using some sort of classroom logic. You are using all the right words and phrases, but like I told Eschatologist...when it comes to the UAW and Big 3...it's a different animal. Your professor example has no application or analogy in that world. You should know this already...I gave examples of UAW benefits; shoes every year, Rx safety glasses, paid "bad behavior" days off, just for starters....things other workers wouldn't even DREAM of, let alone demand. Which education union negotiates that?

They don't.

1.5 years at your company? derp.

[Stevetemp]

Originally Posted by mbarn3065

I'm not acting like the rest of America has no clue what hard work is.

I was responding to the statements about how union workers are high school drop outs and get paid $30. an hour for just showing up!

But if you haven't worked on an assembly line you really don't have a clue what it is like!

What makes you think I haven't. I will PM you minute details, if you keep PM private.

But yeah....I would think from my posts, you'd know I've given enough information to at least suggest my involvement. I also know that things have changed in the last 15-20 years. Lower starting wages, for one. "Good ol boy" network fading.

So what other jobs have you had? What are you comparing this hard work to?

[newholland]

Originally Posted by marshallnoise

I simply disagree. You are a purchased commodity and the company is the purchaser. The transaction is simply this: Company pays you to complete certain tasks in exchange for cash.

The only time you should give a {censored} about the company's finances is when there is real threat of them not fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Unless you are hired to deal with strategic development, I don't think the company is interested in what you think. You are simply not a stakeholder like a partner in a business is a stakeholder. Being a stakeholder implies real & realizable risk.

yep, 'cause if your company goes down due to your ineptitude and overpaying yourself, i still don't lose my job?

you, sir, are the problem. there are NO one way streets when it comes to employment, as much as some people would like to think so-- and people like you undoubtedly spend a lot of time bitching about how the younger generation don't seem to take ownership or work hard anymore, and how great it used to be, when in fact-- they never will work hard or take ownership when you act like they owe you something and you own them. its basic psychology, and your oslo syndrome employment approach... not workin'.

your ideas about how labor works are seriously roughly 4 generations out of date.

whatever. you're not my boss, and certainly won't be any time soon. i regret that anyone might be in your employ.

[Stevetemp]

Quote Originally Posted by diocide View Post
I'm going to make a broad generalization here.

I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are so antiunion are really stuck in horrible jobs themselves. Rather than look at their fellow coworkers and decide that they want to better themselves, they decided they must drag them down. Rather than try to better their own situation and be more like the workers that they seem to envy so much they've decided to villainize them. Rather than lift themselves up to others levels they would rather drag others down.

Seems like butthurtz of the highest degree.

This is what employers want. They want workers who are willing to cut each others throats just to make an extra buck, meanwhile they make 5.

Originally Posted by mbarn3065

This!

Of COURSE these kinds of jobs are highly desired. But any form of criticism is jealousy? Come on.

I gave the example of my wife's education field situation. You think teaching is easy? Think paying the student loans on it is nothing? Losing money, sliding backward? Of course we'd like to have an effective union...but not out of jealousy, I assure you.

[Rear Naked]

Originally Posted by Stevetemp

I was there. I know. There's no "basically" about it.

When you are talking about huge unions and corporations...that IS the culture. There IS no other "market". It's an entity all on it's own with little comparison or peer.

Sounds to me like you are using some sort of classroom logic. You are using all the right words and phrases, but like I told Eschatologist...when it comes to the UAW and Big 3...it's a different animal. Your professor example has no application or analogy in that world. You should know this already...I gave examples of UAW benefits; shoes every year, Rx safety glasses, paid "bad behavior" days off, just for starters....things other workers wouldn't even DREAM of, let alone demand. Which education union negotiates that?

They don't.

does the UAW represent the supervisors we are talking about?

I thought we were talking about how union gains of lower level wages carry up the chain (i assumed past the level of union representation). You said you assumed it carried up the chain, but now you seem to know it all.

Im giving the reason why I think it wouldn't carry past the point of union representation.

Im not saying that gains in lower level dont drive up higher positions that are still unionized. Im saying that once you get to people that are not involved in the union (I dont even know if there are any...i figured that executive types would not be in some UAW union), then this would not have such an effect.

1.5 years at your company? derp.

What is that supposed to mean?

[Rear Naked]

Originally Posted by marshallnoise

I simply disagree. You are a purchased commodity and the company is the purchaser. The transaction is simply this: Company pays you to complete certain tasks in exchange for cash.

The only time you should give a {censored} about the company's finances is when there is real threat of them not fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Unless you are hired to deal with strategic development, I don't think the company is interested in what you think. You are simply not a stakeholder like a partner in a business is a stakeholder. Being a stakeholder implies real & realizable risk.

The labor is the commodity, not the person. If a person is a commodity, that's slavery

[Sillypeoples]

Well, it's pointless to discuss...corporate America didn't want to be forced to hire expensive employees and sought options....so they found labor offshore.

At this point if you don't have anything more to offer then a strong back, chances are you will be making minimum wage - as it should be.

[Gary Cohn]

Originally Posted by diocide

I'm going to make a broad generalization here.

I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are so antiunion are really stuck in horrible jobs themselves. Rather than look at their fellow coworkers and decide that they want to better themselves, they decided they must drag them down. Rather than try to better their own situation and be more like the workers that they seem to envy so much they've decided to villainize them. Rather than lift themselves up to others levels they would rather drag others down.

Seems like butthurtz of the highest degree.

This is what employers want. They want workers who are willing to cut each others throats just to make an extra buck, meanwhile they make 5.

I have been unionized and I've not been unionized.

Union shops are a toilet- a cesspool of immaturity and laziness. I've seen and heard so much garbage in person (and was expected to join in, as a "brother"). Now, as a private company unions are fine. If it drives prices up, we as a consumer have a choice to buy somewhere else.

I have a problem with public unions. Yes, unions have a right to collectively bargain, but as a taxpayer that has to pay for their bargains, I disagree. We should have a right to bargain as well- a right to vote on whether public unions should be dealt with and how.

Line by line. We should have the right to vote for unions in every public arena. We should have a right to vote on exactly what is in those negotiations.

[FrostByte]

So much in this thread.

I manage an auto-parts store... No union though I make more than the majority of union workers. The difference is I had to WORK my way up to my position after I got hired at minimum wage.

I am responsible for all the hiring and firing at my store and I can tell you that this:

Originally Posted by DoubleBarrel

As usual you guys get so wrapped up in the wrong thing, that you missed what really happened.


Right to work is a lie and should be called right to fire.


This overturns almost all of the labor protection laws, and allows employers to fire an employee without or without cause. Leaving the employee without recourse. That means they can fire you at any time for any reason, or no reason, and there's nothing you or the union can do about it. no matter how good you are at your job................

Boss doesn't like you.............FU you're fired
Boss is on period..............FU you're fired
Boss wants so sleep with your wife, but you won't let him..........FU You're fired
Boss want a BJ from you, but you won't do it...................FU You're fired
Boss thinks your too close to retirement/pension................FU you're fired
Boss doesn't like that you are (pick one or more) gay/straight/white/ethnic/pregnant/woman/man/married/single/ugly/fat/skinny/hot/bald/old/young/etc.......FU you're fired


And even if you can prove that it was actually one of those reasons why you were fired. It doesn't matter because it's a right to work state
and you have no recourse.

Is 100%, abso-{censored}ing-lutely, COMPLETELY false.

It's damn near impossible to fire somebody these days. I have fired 5 people total in my 6 years of management. 3 for stealing money, one for smoking weed in the parking lot while on the clock, and one for stealing a delivery truck from the store

I have had some TERRIBLE preforming employees over the years but I can't fire them just because. They have to break company policy a certain amount of times in a given time period before I can even threaten their job... Even that doesn't work if I don't write them up EVERY time!

In no way shape or form can I fire somebody just because I want to... or because they won't blow me or let me {censored} their wife These are lies the union has put into your head.

The only dealings my company had with the union was when our new warehouse was being built in Kansas City. I had to go 3 days without parts deliveries because during the move from our old warehouse all the union workers went on strike and picketed a bunch of our stores because we hired some other, non-union construction companies to come pick up their slack and hurry things along

[diocide]

Originally Posted by Gary Cohn

I have been unionized and I've not been unionized.

Union shops are a toilet- a cesspool of immaturity and laziness. I've seen and heard so much garbage in person (and was expected to join in, as a "brother"). Now, as a private company unions are fine. If it drives prices up, we as a consumer have a choice to buy somewhere else.

I have a problem with public unions. Yes, unions have a right to collectively bargain, but as a taxpayer that has to pay for their bargains, I disagree. We should have a right to bargain as well- a right to vote on whether public unions should be dealt with and how.

Line by line. We should have the right to vote for unions in every public arena. We should have a right to vote on exactly what is in those negotiations.

I'll argue two points with you.

1- I don't consider union shops cesspools. SOME jobs must create incentives for their workers. Jobs like police, fire, utility workers etc HAVE to want to come to work, otherwise people could die, buildings could be demolished or other catastrophes can occur. What would happen if the police officer was more concerned about getting back and punching out rather than helping a person? Or if there was a gas leak at 3 AM and nobody wanted to respond because they knew they were not being paid well? These people work a {censored}load, and hard. I see them every day in my field. These guys jump all over overtime and extra shifts because its WORTH it. And they genuinely care about their jobs.

2- you do get a Say in how your town or city allocate their funds. You do this by voting. It may not be line by line or a specific as you would like, but it's more than adequate in my opinion. You don't like the contracts getting voted on? Vote against them or vote them out.

[Gary Cohn]

They don't care about their jobs, they care about the pay.

It's a sorry assed ruse. "I do it because I just LOVE playing with wires," really? How about do it for free, since you love it so much.



Nice try

[diocide]

Originally Posted by Gary Cohn

They don't care about their jobs, they care about the pay.

It's a sorry assed ruse. "I do it because I just LOVE playing with wires," really? How about do it for free, since you love it so much.



Nice try

You missed the other 17 sentances of my response

[Gary Cohn]

Oh lawd

[dicky sofa]

[madrigal77]

The only thing unions are good for is lining the pockets of the union bosses. Where do you think all those union dues are going? They make you and your "brothers" volunteer for everything union related, so they are not going to running the actual unions. And if you do happen to go on strike, after paying $100+ every month for 7-8 years in union dues, you get like $20 a day for the length of the strike, which is usually only a month or two max. So where is all that extra money going? It's buying yachts and houses and cars for the union bosses. It's almost as much of a cult and a scam as Scientology.

[theAntihero]

I'm going to make a broad generalization here.

I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are so antiunion are really stuck in horrible jobs themselves. Rather than look at their fellow coworkers and decide that they want to better themselves, they decided they must drag them down. Rather than try to better their own situation and be more like the workers that they seem to envy so much they've decided to villainize them. Rather than lift themselves up to others levels they would rather drag others down.

Seems like butthurtz of the highest degree.

This is what employers want. They want workers who are willing to cut each others throats just to make an extra buck, meanwhile they make 5.

I actually run my own business but have worked bad jobs before just like everyone has, ever. The difference is i quit the bad jobs and moved on. Something like 95% of the companies i left went out of business, good employees are worth their weight in gold.

It's almost as much of a cult and a scam as Scientology

Are there aliens? Please tell me there are aleins and i can move things with my mind, cause if joining a union allows me to move things with the power of my mind sign me the hell up

[Gary Cohn]

Originally Posted by theAntihero

I actually run my own business but have worked bad jobs before just like everyone has, ever. The difference is i quit the bad jobs and moved on. Something like 95% of the companies i left went out of business, good employees are worth their weight in gold.



Are there aliens? Please tell me there are aleins and i can move things with my mind, cause if joining a union allows me to move things with the power of my mind sign me the hell up

Oh it's better than that, just mutter these 5 words, "that's not in the contract."

Voila, don't have to do {censored}!

[theAntihero]

Originally Posted by Gary Cohn

Oh it's better than that, just mutter these 5 words, "that's not in the contract."

Voila, don't have to do {censored}!

LOL. Every ex-union guy ive ever worked with sucked. In fact i once worked for a guy that was ex-union that had some odd quirks. One was since i was a finisher i wasnt allowed to do anything other than finish. Now this sounds cool in a way but i once picked up a shovel and was literally digging a one inch deep by 5 foot wide trench and you would have thought that i had punched his wife, my god. The worst part about it is there was literally nothing for me to do and i had been standing around for over an hour watching his one laborer work his balls off while his 6 finishers sat around.

[Slunderfungus]

Originally Posted by Stevetemp

The thing is...firemen, police- professional who risk their lives! They should have a good salary, good medical....and at least some pension for their dedication and risk. Teachers? We take them for granted, sometimes little more than baby-sitters who take a TON of abuse. But they are STILL "Professionals" in a CRUCIAL niche in our society! Why not take care of them? Encourage the good ones to come in and stay? Not dumb it down.

What about when the the good, new teachers with the latest in intructional techniques, and who aren't burned out, are the first to go when the budget hammer comes down? The ones with senoirity or tenure are the ones who stay, notthe best ones. experience does not a good teacher make. That is one of the biggest problems especially when you live in a sall town, and there are few other options or alertnative choices for schools. Most small towns only have one, middle and high school. My kids range in age from 25 to 13. I have had the same {censored}ty teachers {censored} all of my children. When the one in partucular pulled crap with my oldest, I figured...eh maybe persoanilty conflict...it happens. Wen the second daughter had her two years later, the same {censored} happened. It was over ten years later when the third had her and the SAME crap. Talking to other parents, its not my kids, its the teacher, crabbym snippy, impatient, and vebally abusive. With the first kid, I tried reasoning, the second, I got an attitude, after tryingto reason, the thrid, I went to the school board, like so amny other parents. I moved my kids, to a new elementary school. This is just one teacher I'm usng as an example because she was the worst, but there have been others, and ina small town people talk with one another nd you learn its not your kid, its the teacher. Then by the time the kids hit middle school, they get attitudes against teachers, by high school, they return the abuse, which is why someteachers put up with "abuse". When these teachers are in unions it takes an act of God to get one fired. And its usually the tachers with seniourity, or tenure. So when the newer teachers come in who are not abusive, who have newer techniques, and are making a diference, the are the ones let go. That would be MY problem with the union in public schools. The one that has quite literally, hit home. I realize this is not the case with all teachers, some go above and beyond to makesure every student willing to learn, get the education they need. And then thers tose who do their jobs, and no less. Maybe not above and beyond, but well enough to get their students through the grider we call public Edcation.

As for first responders, yeah, they live their lives to save ours, atleast Firefighters and Emergency Medical Personell. The Police I'm on the fence about. I have had more more experience with arrogant, policeman, than those who are respectful. I understand tey come across a {censored}load of ASSHOLES in their line of work, but not everyone they pull over is one of these. We don'e deserve to be treated as ones who are. And if you don't fit the mold you get profiled into an undesierable niche.

[Slunderfungus]

 

Originally Posted by Krank'N

Contrary to tea-bagger philosophy "GREED IS NOT GOOD". Self-centered individuals and corporations are a bane on the planet and its societies. Whining about your taxes while kids go hungry is vile. Denying those who have served a decent pension for decades of service is ludicrous. Raking in massive profits and handing out huge bonus' while lobbying to keep minimum wage levels down and treating workers like dirt is typical corporate practice. What goes around comes around tea-baggers.

 

And not every corporation is run or owned by republicans, and if you think that democtratic business owners dont do the same {censored}, your diluted

[Slunderfungus]

Originally Posted by marshallnoise

Fortunately, this being a free country, you can criticize my post and I can post it in the first place.

I know acutely that when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. If you looked at what firefighters did every single day, 90% of it is looking at porn at the fire house and running out with the lights on to get steaks for the grill. Then there is a smattering of showing up for a minor fender bender with all lights flared up. Heck, half of the time they are making phone calls for the side businesses they run and have started because of the work schedule they have crafted out (freeing up 4 days a week but making $80K a year in 3 days). The police and fire were not unsung heroes they once were, today they are mercenaries and demand a hell of a lot for their "service."

.

I don't give a {censored} what these people are doing with the 85% of their life they aren't responding to emergencies. Bottom line is, when there IS an emergenency, these guys have the BALLS to respond to it. Who else else is going to pull your ass out of a burning building, or cut some drunken asshole out of a car after theyve slammed into a pole? You???? if so, you'de be doing the job already. Not bitching about them online.

[diocide]

One more point to the guys defending the "greed is good" mentality.

If "greed is good" then how can you possibly slam and rail against the unions? The preconceived notion that all union workers are lazy fat asses, and that the union bosses just line their pockets, supports your "greed is good" argument.

You can't have it both ways. Saying greed is good in one breath,and then calling the unions greedy (as a pejorative) is absolute insanity. Contradicting yourselves FTL...

[DoubleBarrel]

Originally Posted by FrostByte

So much in this thread.

I manage an auto-parts store... No union though I make more than the majority of union workers. The difference is I had to WORK my way up to my position after I got hired at minimum wage.

I am responsible for all the hiring and firing at my store and I can tell you that this:



Is 100%, abso-{censored}ing-lutely, COMPLETELY false.

It's damn near impossible to fire somebody these days. I have fired 5 people total in my 6 years of management. 3 for stealing money, one for smoking weed in the parking lot while on the clock, and one for stealing a delivery truck from the store

I have had some TERRIBLE preforming employees over the years but I can't fire them just because. They have to break company policy a certain amount of times in a given time period before I can even threaten their job... Even that doesn't work if I don't write them up EVERY time!

In no way shape or form can I fire somebody just because I want to... or because they won't blow me or let me {censored} their wife These are lies the union has put into your head.

The only dealings my company had with the union was when our new warehouse was being built in Kansas City. I had to go 3 days without parts deliveries because during the move from our old warehouse all the union workers went on strike and picketed a bunch of our stores because we hired some other, non-union construction companies to come pick up their slack and hurry things along

LOL. I've been working in HR/Finance in 4 different states for over 25 years. I know what I am talking about.

The reason you can't fire at will, is because of the union & union contract. Once you make a state a right to work state and eliminate the union, all that goes out the window.

Right to work laws are just the opposite of that. They basically say that work is an ongoing agreement between the two parties. You agree to work, and they agree to pay you. BUT.....You or the company may end the agreement at any time, for any reason, or for no reason. In fact they don't even have to tell you why, just that the "agreement" is ended and you are no longer an employee.

Get it ?

[marshallnoise]

 

Originally Posted by Slunderfungus

I don't give a {censored} what these people are doing with the 85% of their life they aren't responding to emergencies. Bottom line is, when there IS an emergenency, these guys have the BALLS to respond to it. Who else else is going to pull your ass out of a burning building, or cut some drunken asshole out of a car after theyve slammed into a pole? You???? if so, you'de be doing the job already. Not bitching about them online.

 

So wait, according to you, I should be a firefighter because I don't like what firefighters do, the majority of the time. They don't have BALLS to respond to it, they are HIRED to respond to it. Don't you get that?