Michigan becomes another Right to Work state :-)

[***1776***]

I was also a union guy in the 90s while i was in college for hotels and restaurants and there not all bad and the anti christ, (not at all) but they are {censored}ing inefficient and bloated for the most part.


Some of the most innefecient business models found anywhere. You could only do "job A" and dont ever do 'job B'.. There was also a union my buddy joined where he was a driver but was not allowed to unload or load the truck, they needed 2 more guys to do a simple 10 minute task ----- thus increasing union dues and increasing costs to the company and consumer!



PS - Theres a BIG difference between a private sector union and a public sector union job, big difference

[newholland]

i wonder why this is perceived of as a strike against unions, when in fact it looks to me more as a vote of no-faith in defacto union membership?

 

i mean.. if the union you're obliged to join isn't seeming like it's beneficial to you, why should you have to join it?

 

sounds like more of a wake up call for unions to not suck- but it's being politicized as some anti-middle class thing. i'm IN a public sector union, and i still don't see this as an attack on unions OR the middle class.

[SteveiJobzz]

 

For the record, I am a Union Electrician. I also got some sleep, so I won't swear at people this time. I'm not going to bother reading through all the anecdotes and Fox News labor bashing previously posted. I am just going to say that when you paint unions with a broad brush you marginalize their accomplishments - accomplishments that affect not only members, but workers everywhere. I am able to make a good living (when there is work....it's finally picking up again for me), afford health care, dental and vision care for my wife and myself, and save money for retirement. I work with well trained people who aren't going to get me killed or injured because they don't know what they are doing - my local will actually bounce people that are incompetent! I don't have to worry about getting fired over some silly dispute because my employers have an understanding with my union about what an employer's responsibiliies are, and what my responsibilities are as a worker in the form of a legal contract. That's all I have to say about this. Enjoy your {censored}storm, guys.

 

 

Are you IBEW? When I worked for the power company here, that's what I was. There was a good mutual understanding between my company and the Union about what was expected of an employee and employer and the union only stepped in on the rare occurrences that there really was an issue. If you made a safety violation there were only so many things the union could do to save you.

 

I think the problem with this thread is that unions are getting painted with too broad a brush and everyone thinks that all unions are like UAW when in reality they're not.

[guitarbilly74]

 

For the record, I am a Union Electrician. I also got some sleep, so I won't swear at people this time. I'm not going to bother reading through all the anecdotes and Fox News labor bashing previously posted. I am just going to say that when you paint unions with a broad brush you marginalize their accomplishments - accomplishments that affect not only members, but workers everywhere. I am able to make a good living (when there is work....it's finally picking up again for me), afford health care, dental and vision care for my wife and myself, and save money for retirement. I work with well trained people who aren't going to get me killed or injured because they don't know what they are doing - my local will actually bounce people that are incompetent! I don't have to worry about getting fired over some silly dispute because my employers have an understanding with my union about what an employer's responsibiliies are, and what my responsibilities are as a worker in the form of a legal contract. That's all I have to say about this. Enjoy your {censored}storm, guys.

 

 

 

I am also able to do all that without an union. I'm not an electrician though, I just work an office job (business analyst) .... but that aside, what is the difference? I have been able to negotiate salaries and benefits all my life without an union, why can't you?

 

I'm not trolling or bashing you by the way, just genuinely curious about it.

[marshallnoise]

 

I was also a union guy in the 90s while i was in college for hotels and restaurants and there not all bad and the anti christ, (not at all) but they are {censored}ing inefficient and bloated for the most part. Some of the most innefecient business models found anywhere. You could only do "job A" and dont ever do 'job B'.. There was also a union my buddy joined where he was a driver but was not allowed to unload or load the truck, they needed 2 more guys to do a simple 10 minute task ----- thus increasing union dues and increasing costs to the company and consumer! PS - Theres a BIG difference between a private sector union and a public sector union job, big difference

 

 

Indeed. I worked for Fastenal breifly in Tullahoma, TN. One of my accounts was Arnold AFB. I was greeted with the {censored}tiest of attitudes by the people there. When I was hooked up with a fella from the base and show me where the various locations were on the base to stock inventory, I asked him if he could tell me what kind of stuff ran out more frequently than others, you know, since he worked there and used the stuff in the bins. His response was classic union horse{censored}: "I am not going to tell you that because it's not in my job description. They are going to have to get someone else to tell you that information."

 

Mind you, this is not my only experience with unions, especially with the public employee variety, but it was something that struck me as so incredibly wrong.

[marshallnoise]

 

I am also able to do all that without an union. I'm not an electrician though, I just work an office job (business analyst) .... but that aside, what is the difference? I have been able to negotiate salaries and benefits all my life without an union, why can't you? I'm not trolling or bashing you by the way, just genuinely curious about it.

 

 

Well, that is just it. When you have numbers (people), you can literally bully your employer into giving terms that don't pencil.

[chip39]

My only experience with being around unions was in the construction world. We were a non union excavation company that installed sump pumps and sewers. We hired plumbers and electricians that were both union companies. So we would do most of the work call them up and they would spend two or three hours installing the actual pump after we spent all day digging the hole. These guys would not work one single minute past 4 and if there was five seconds worth of digging that still needed to be done would call us to come back to do it for them. The union told them not to I guess or whatever but as soon as we hired non union companies life became a lot easier and more flexible.

 

I think this might be only true on the manual labor side of things but it seems in my experience that union companies seemed to have lazier workers. However, that is only what I saw in my three years of doing construction in one small city in Michigan. I don't assume that is the case everywhere.

 

And I teach at a private school and CAN NOT wait to land that public school deal. WHOO HOO I'M RICH BIATCH. Seriously private school teachers get paid maybe 60% what public school teachers do.

[chip39]

Also the laziest people alive are city workers. These {censored}ers have hiding places all over the city for sleeping/eating/watching the price is right instead of working. We'd scoop some of these guys up while they were laid off and they were essentially just a person to talk to while digging.

[Rear Naked]

Whatever the purpose of the bill is, in the end the individual worker has the right to consider if the union is worth the dues. Sounds like freedom and democracy all rolled into one to me.

 

hence the word allow

 

 

[diocide]

 

Where do you get this stuff from?

 

 

I can't lmgtfy from work, but go to google, type in, "what would the price of gas be without subsidies" without quotes and read.

[Rear Naked]

I can't lmgtfy from work, but go to google, type in, "what would the price of gas be without subsidies" without quotes and read.

 

 

Those subsidies have little effect on gas prices.

 

 

The reason why we have cheap gas is because other countries cover fuel related expenses by taxing the gasoline. We barely tax the gasoine by comparison and pay for such expenses out of income tax. This is why we still drive SUVs.

[diocide]

 

Those subsidies have little effect on gas prices. The reason why we have cheap gas is because other countries cover fuel related expenses by taxing the gasoline. We barely tax the gasoine by comparison and pay for such expenses out of income tax. This is why we still drive SUVs.

 

 

Lower taxes aren't considered subsidies?

[marshallnoise]

 

Those subsidies have little effect on gas prices. The reason why we have cheap gas is because other countries cover fuel related expenses by taxing the gasoline. We barely tax the gasoine by comparison and pay for such expenses out of income tax. This is why we still drive SUVs.

 

 

Not to mention sheer volume. We consume more fuel than most countries. Plus we put in lots of infrastructure back in the 50s & 60s in terms of refineries. As those begin to age and become obsolete, gas prices will rise due to the refining bottleneck.

 

diocide, I will google that stuff and read, casually. But I can tell you for a fact, gas would not be $10 a gallon if the government would get out of energy production. It would go down, period.

[marshallnoise]

 

Lower taxes aren't considered subsidies?

 

 

WHAT?

 

No, it isn't the government's money in the first place!

[Rear Naked]

 

Lower taxes aren't considered subsidies?

 

 

Its not a tax break. Its just compraratively lower than other countries.

 

 

EDIT - I consider them subsidies for sure, but its not what people think of when they are talking abouit oil subsidies.

[outtahear]

 

Those subsidies have little effect on gas prices. The reason why we have cheap gas is because other countries cover fuel related expenses by taxing the gasoline. We barely tax the gasoine by comparison and pay for such expenses out of income tax. This is why we still drive SUVs.

 

 

No. Subsidies (or, Taxes when you pay 'em) are {censored}ing huge, and in reality, you pay as much as most of Europe.

You just don't get healthcare and college tuition for it. And, most drive SUVs for the same reason they won't put the phone down while driving-

They're {censored}ing children.

[Rear Naked]

 

No. Subsidies (or, Taxes when you pay 'em) are {censored}ing huge, and in reality, you pay as much as most of Europe. You just don't get healthcare and college tuition for it. And, most drive SUVs for the same reason they won't put the phone down while driving- They're {censored}ing children.

 

 

What did you just say?

[diocide]

 

Not to mention sheer volume. We consume more fuel than most countries. Plus we put in lots of infrastructure back in the 50s & 60s in terms of refineries. As those begin to age and become obsolete, gas prices will rise due to the refining bottleneck. diocide, I will google that stuff and read, casually. But I can tell you for a fact, gas would not be $10 a gallon if the government would get out of energy production. It would go down, period.

 

 

I think you you're wrong, and there's absolutely no argument to be made for your position. If you show me something to the contrary, I'll read it.

[newholland]

No. Subsidies (or, Taxes when you pay 'em) are {censored}ing huge, and in reality, you pay as much as most of Europe. You just don't get healthcare and college tuition for it. And, most drive SUVs for the same reason they won't put the phone down while driving- They're {censored}ing children.

 

 

i like this guy. hobbesian worldview. i'm on that team.

[marshallnoise]

 

I think you you're wrong, and there's absolutely no argument to be made for your position. If you show me something to the contrary, I'll read it.

 

 

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

 

At the bottom of that page, you will see exactly what goes into the cost of fuel.

 

And I think this article is well written and very clear as to what influences gas prices across the country. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/gas-price.htm

[diocide]

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ At the bottom of that page, you will see exactly what goes into the cost of fuel. And I think this article is well written and very clear as to what influences gas prices across the country. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/gas-price.htm

 

I'll check those out later

[marshallnoise]

I'll check those out later

 

Cool beans!

[Rock Hardness]

 

Well, that is just it. When you have numbers (people), you can literally bully your employer into giving terms that don't pencil.

 

1. Yes, I am an IBEW member, and if you are a screw-up, it's gonna cost you your job - if not your ass! Seems that many people think Union means a bunch of guys with ax-handles throwing bombs....sure, it's happened, but thats not how it is for everyone.

2. While you and I have those things, many don't. While I have been with the same employer for 12 years, that is rarely the case. "Short calls" can be for a few days. Imagine having to renegotiate your wage and benefit package with a different employer every week or so? Concrete workers do "One Shots" - one day jobs. We don't do interviews - we get called out, fill out the standard paperwork (W-2's, etc) and go right to work. We get paid the same package on every site in our local. Of course we negotiate, but we do it as a group, just as the signatory contractors negotiate together as a group.

 

Also, we get better deals on benefits because we get group rates.

 

3.If my local does not come to terms with the contractors on a contract, we don't strike, we go to third party arbitration. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. We bon't bully them.

[Eschatologist]

Okay...that's fine. Like I said...the UAW is a different animal. And you SHOULD apologize for it, because it does tarnish the union image. Hah...no, I'm not saying it's your fault. My wife is a teacher here in Florida...a 'right to work state"...which really means a "right to fire and treat like crap" state. I told her teachers, firemen, police....they NEED an honest sincere union. The main reason being they are the first on the chopping block when funds get tight. Mostly because of the media and being a public servant. She hasn't had a raise in over three years, got 3% retirement fund tacked on (despite "hiring agreements"), and paying increasing insurance costs. Our costs at home keep going up...so where does that leave us? Right smack in the middle of the shrinking middle class. And everyone wonders why teachers suck? The good ones go private sector, or just go crazy.

Sorry, meant to say "I don't make excuses for it..." I agree with you

Btw Ontario has some of the highest standardized test scores of the OECD, while being fully publicly funded. It is possible to have quality public schools.

[Eschatologist]

PS - Theres a BIG difference between a private sector union and a public sector union job, big difference

 

 

Not trolling: what do you find are the differences? I only have experience with public sector. I've been to rallies and hear private sector Federation leaders speak, but I'm not familiar with their day to day operations.