Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Originally Posted by newholland so what's market wage for a corporate executive? is it 700 times the average employee? or 770 times (just add 10% for the bonus for hiring lower paid americans)? How about: None of your damn business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MatchFive Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 I think it is perfectly justifiable that someone putting lug nuts on a car should make $30.00 an hour.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Originally Posted by marshallnoise How about: None of your damn business. why not? companies can piss test me, ask for my credit information, dig their fingers into my personal biz so that i can help them by working for them, but i can't ask questions of the people who run the companies i work for? nah. i work for a company that publishes that data. you must not.in the meantime, you should probably work on your manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Originally Posted by newholland why not? companies can piss test me, ask for my credit information, dig their fingers into my personal biz so that i can help them by working for them, but i can't ask questions of the people who run the companies i work for? nah. i work for a company that publishes that data. you must not.in the meantime, you should probably work on your manners. It used to be good manners to not discuss salaries with co-workers, period. They are hiring you for a product that you produce. You have invested into that product via experience and education. When you go to work for a company, you are being contracted to sell that product to the company. You aren't helping them, you are delivering a product or service. It is a purely business transaction. That is why it is none of your business what an executive makes since that is his business with his emplorer.In the end folks, we are all self employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Originally Posted by marshallnoise It used to be good manners to not discuss salaries with co-workers, period. They are hiring you for a product that you produce. You have invested into that product via experience and education. When you go to work for a company, you are being contracted to sell that product to the company. You aren't helping them, you are delivering a product or service. It is a purely business transaction. That is why it is none of your business what an executive makes since that is his business with his emplorer.In the end folks, we are all self employed. no i'm not-- i'm willingly assisting inthe business of the work. i make a committment to be there, and so does my employer. it's commerce, and it's a negotiated trade, and there's terms applied to the transaction on both sides. i'm not a purchased commodity, and the company isn't my purchaser. we're BOTH held to the standard of the transaction, and thusly, we both have responsibilities to each other.in the end, folks, we should be able to have a conversation as employer or employee, or it's bull{censored}, and it's bad manners to NOT listen on either side because we're both stakeholders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mbarn3065 Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 I think it is perfectly justifiable that someone putting lug nuts on a car should make $30.00 an hour.. Try it sometime for 8 hours! I work at a GM assembly plant. It's nothing like what you have probably heard. The jobs are fast paced and everyone is working very hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T is for Tele Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Part of me worries that this will be used to justify lower wages and general {censored}ing employees.The rest of me knows how the big unions systematically gutted the Michigan economy for 40 years and left an empty shell.TL/DR: I'm a bit conflicted on this one. Organizing a "strike" didn't require the teamsters union. Hoffa made it so that everything had to involve the teamsters. The union became bigger than the cause, and that is still the problem today. P.S. Yes, I know we are talking mostly the UAW since we're talking Michigan - it's simply an analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sillypeoples Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 It went too far...high school drop outs getting living wage jobs for basically showing up is ridiculous....next are the government jobs... A big problem with society is that when you enable the weak.....it makes for a weak society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mbarn3065 Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 It went too far...high school drop outs getting living wage jobs for basically showing up is ridiculous....next are the government jobs... A big problem with society is that when you enable the weak.....it makes for a weak society. I know people like to keep this BS going, but I'm telling you GM will not hire any "high school drop outs" and if you are "showing up", you better be ready to work your ass off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 no i'm not-- i'm willingly assisting inthe business of the work. i make a committment to be there, and so does my employer. it's commerce, and it's a negotiated trade, and there's terms applied to the transaction on both sides. i'm not a purchased commodity, and the company isn't my purchaser. we're BOTH held to the standard of the transaction, and thusly, we both have responsibilities to each other.in the end, folks, we should be able to have a conversation as employer or employee, or it's bull{censored}, and it's bad manners to NOT listen on either side because we're both stakeholders. I simply disagree. You are a purchased commodity and the company is the purchaser. The transaction is simply this: Company pays you to complete certain tasks in exchange for cash. The only time you should give a {censored} about the company's finances is when there is real threat of them not fulfilling their end of the bargain. Unless you are hired to deal with strategic development, I don't think the company is interested in what you think. You are simply not a stakeholder like a partner in a business is a stakeholder. Being a stakeholder implies real & realizable risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dicky sofa Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 yet another mouthbreather that thinks peace = war... I simply disagree. You are a purchased commodity and the company is the purchaser. The transaction is simply this: Company pays you to complete certain tasks in exchange for cash. The only time you should give a {censored} about the company's finances is when there is real threat of them not fulfilling their end of the bargain. Unless you are hired to deal with strategic development, I don't think the company is interested in what you think. You are simply not a stakeholder like a partner in a business is a stakeholder. Being a stakeholder implies real & realizable risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Cohn Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Try it sometime for 8 hours!I work at a GM assembly plant. It's nothing like what you have probably heard.The jobs are fast paced and everyone is working very hard! So basically, you're like every other non-unionized blue collar worker? Except you haven't had to take pay cuts or hour cuts like them? Where is your compassion for them? Why are you not helping your fellows out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 yet another mouthbreather that thinks peace = war... MFPOMFS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members charveldan Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Try it sometime for 8 hours! I work at a GM assembly plant. It's nothing like what you have probably heard. The jobs are fast paced and everyone is working very hard! Entry level is about $16 bucks an hour now after the 2008 bailout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Try it sometime for 8 hours!I work at a GM assembly plant. It's nothing like what you have probably heard.The jobs are fast paced and everyone is working very hard! Lots of jobs are faced paced and hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 I know people like to keep this BS going, but I'm telling you GM will not hire any "high school drop outs" and if you are "showing up", you better be ready to work your ass off! There are difficult jobs and cushy jobs...stop blowing smoke up people's asses. I've seen electricians work 6 hours straight or more without their break. Also seen them sit around fro 8 hours straight...or change a fuse. Stop acting like the rest of America has no clue what hard work is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members exafro Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 No, they are not risking their lives. Firefighters USED to risk their lives on a routine basis, but they have shown that they are living lives as long as an office job worker these days. Even during 9/11, more office workers died than police or fire. Police, by in large, will become criminals or apathetic in 10 years time if they are on the beat. Bad cops cannot get fired and can break the laws they enforce on the public without recourse. What does it feel like living with such a cynical and bitter viewpoint? BTW of course more office workers died on 9/11. Those were office buildings not firehouses or the beer distributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 There are difficult jobs and cushy jobs...stop blowing smoke up people's asses. I've seen electricians work 6 hours straight or more without their break. Also seen them sit around fro 8 hours straight...or change a fuse. Stop acting like the rest of America has no clue what hard work is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why would you think that executive pay would be less in a right to work state? I don't think there would be any reason for it to be so. Of course companies gravitate to these places becasue it is cheaper to hire workers. Thats kind of the point. I guess I just don't think paying market wage is immoral I am not sure about "high level" executive pay. But I do know that union negotiations can effect the pay scale of nearby levels. For example, a floor supervisor SHOULD make more than those being overseen....right? Not too unreasonable. So if a union negotiates high wages for assembly or millwright, wages across the board need follow. Which I suppose carries right up the ranks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 What does it feel like living with such a cynical and bitter viewpoint? BTW of course more office workers died on 9/11. Those were office buildings not firehouses or the beer distributor. Honestly, I don't think it is cynical or bitter. It is just reality. I am not one of those angry guys who walks around all pissed off. I just hate it when people just refuse to see things the way they are. People always say {censored} like: But teh fyrefiters and kops and techers dezerve noting butt the bast! They is heroz!!! No they aren't. They are people who do a job. I brought up the 9/11 thing because those same people who will give the police & firefighters the world honestly think of 9/11 as the picture for which they draw their conclusions as to what kind of pensions and compensation they should get. There is no direct connection to me. Too much emotional {censored} all caught up with public employees. Teachers just have to cry "Its for the childrenzzz!!!" and tax payers will pass increases on taxes. It is just {censored}ing crazy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mbarn3065 Posted December 14, 2012 Members Share Posted December 14, 2012 There are difficult jobs and cushy jobs...stop blowing smoke up people's asses. I've seen electricians work 6 hours straight or more without their break. Also seen them sit around fro 8 hours straight...or change a fuse. Stop acting like the rest of America has no clue what hard work is. I'm not acting like the rest of America has no clue what hard work is. I was responding to the statements about how union workers are high school drop outs and get paid $30. an hour for just showing up! But if you haven't worked on an assembly line you really don't have a clue what it is like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mbarn3065 Posted December 14, 2012 Members Share Posted December 14, 2012 Entry level is about $16 bucks an hour now after the 2008 bailout. This is true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 14, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2012 I am not sure about "high level" executive pay. But I do know that union negotiations can effect the pay scale of nearby levels. For example, a floor supervisor SHOULD make more than those being overseen....right? Not too unreasonable. So if a union negotiates high wages for assembly or millwright, wages across the board need follow. Which I suppose carries right up the ranks, This is probably an empirical question, but my intuition is that that is not correct. Wages for a particular position are determined mostly by the regional market, not some comparison with other workers in the company. If the supply of chefs is low, the market wage for one will increase (you will have to pay your chef more)...but this shouldn't effect the pay of the restaurant manager. If minimum wage goes up, is the manager entitled to a corresponding raise? No. For example, a floor supervisor SHOULD make more than those being overseen....right? Well its a bad idea to make statements like that. Its all going to be mostly based on the market...there is no SHOULD this or that. BUT, I think what you're saying might happen as a result of culture of business. That {censored} happens sometimes. For example, salary for professors increases as they get older, even though their productivity as academics decreases as they age. This is a side effect of the general culture around it. If you reduce pay for old professors, everyone will be pissed even though it is perfectly reasonable and justifiable to do so.....so they dont do it. Another example is how there is less loyalty between employees and employers (on both sides). The old-timer is more likely to be let go nowadays and people are more likely to switch employers. I've worked for my company for 1.5 years and have seen people come and go and come back again. This is because of the cultural environment of business now. Basically you may be right, but its not because of some general rule of economics that it is so....its just that economic decisions are made in the context of culture and stuff like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eschatologist Posted December 14, 2012 Members Share Posted December 14, 2012 Honestly, I don't think it is cynical or bitter. It is just reality. I am not one of those angry guys who walks around all pissed off. I just hate it when people just refuse to see things the way they are. People always say {censored} like: But teh fyrefiters and kops and techers dezerve noting butt the bast! They is heroz!!! No they aren't. They are people who do a job. I brought up the 9/11 thing because those same people who will give the police & firefighters the world honestly think of 9/11 as the picture for which they draw their conclusions as to what kind of pensions and compensation they should get. There is no direct connection to me. Too much emotional {censored} all caught up with public employees. Teachers just have to cry "Its for the childrenzzz!!!" and tax payers will pass increases on taxes. It is just {censored}ing crazy to me. So then, what's your solution? Obviously reducing salaries is going to fix our problems, right? Both sides can co-opt kids to spin it to their advantage, so bringing kids in to the argument is something of a moot argument that you will never win. Neo-libertarians who cry about the government taking all their money rarely have any solutions of any merit (and they ALWAYS benefit those who have money...Charter Schools are bandaid solutions that don't solve the larger problem). I will reiterate what I have already clearly stated: it is possible to have a quality publicly funded education system. Here in Ontario we have the best scores in the English speaking world, and regardless of the disputes going on now, we've done that by working with the government to accomplish common goals. Yes it costs money, but there's an old saying...you get what you pay for. Finland is an even better example. They have some of the highest test scores in the world. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/ They kick our asses, and the article explains why. Bottom line: spend money on quality workers, give them a voice, foster an environment of cooperation, not confrontation, and there will be peace and prosperity. How do you do that? Pay for it....dare I say.....uh oh here it comes.....taxes! Oh noez! Such a dirty word. Don't care if I get flamed for it. You want quality, you pay for it. Hell, we're all willing to go in to tremendous debt to go to war (Canada no exception, we're not "Peace keepers of the world" anymore with Chairman Harper running the show), I think our priorities are ass-backwards if we're willing to spend billions and trillions on invading and killing with minimal results, instead of educating, healing, and helping our own citizens. It's insane. We have to rethink our entire economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members diocide Posted December 14, 2012 Members Share Posted December 14, 2012 I'm going to make a broad generalization here. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are so antiunion are really stuck in horrible jobs themselves. Rather than look at their fellow coworkers and decide that they want to better themselves, they decided they must drag them down. Rather than try to better their own situation and be more like the workers that they seem to envy so much they've decided to villainize them. Rather than lift themselves up to others levels they would rather drag others down. Seems like butthurtz of the highest degree. This is what employers want. They want workers who are willing to cut each others throats just to make an extra buck, meanwhile they make 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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