Members babablowfish Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Dear Fellow Forumites - Lately there has been a recurrence of political invective in signatures and even in some posts. I am not the moderator, nor do I really want to play the role of the hallway monitor. But trust me on this, if we allow politics onto the site there is going to be an eventual eruption of rage that will destroy the community we have built. I speak from experience having formerly been an active member of a site that became so torn by rancor over politics that it became a most unwelcome place. (I haven't visited there in several years.) Everyone has an opinion. Where that opinion has to do with Mahogany vs Rosewood, TUSQ vs FWI, Ebony vs Micarta, Solids vs Laminates, etc, we are easily able to keep it civil and humorous. When politics comes into the picture it can get ugly quickly. Remember the interlopers who came here to attack Terry - that was over politics. I stood up for Terry because the interlopers had no business bringing politics onto the site, not as an expression of solidarity or disagreement with anyone's political point of view. If you value what we have here, and I do, I ask you all to just keep it civil and non-political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Thank you, BBBF. And not only politics. I've seen some religious attacks as well, and some signatures containing language that's far beyond what most would consider socially acceptable for such a diverse group. Everyone has the right to free speech and their own opinions, but some things are better left unsaid out of simple courtesy and/or consideration for others who may not hold the same beliefs or adhere to the same social standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 You have just, in one fell-swoop, grounded all my new jokes! You now I agree with you, baba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members denvertrakker Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Everyone has the right to free speech and their own opinions, but some things are better left unsaid out of simple courtesy and/or consideration for others who may not hold the same beliefs or adhere to the same social standards. +1 on Baba's post. Samilyn, I think that "right" has somehow gotten distorted over the years. I learned a long time ago that freedom is not the same as license. Perhaps that doesn't get taught in schools anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T.B. Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 +1 I hear you loud in clear. Every once in a blue moon there's a dust up here; it's important we all kinda police ourselves. AGHC last week was very strange to say the least, but I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt that life issues sometimes overwhelm them and the can't reach the self edit-button. Trina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dead Skunk Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 +1 from me. I don't consider myself a member of this community, I mostly just read posts of interest from time to time. Many of the players here are more advanced than I, so I often take away more than I can contribute. Although peolpe have the right to say what they think, it doesn't mean it's appropriate to do so at every opportuniy. They should also realize that others have the right to not like/agree with what they say. When this forum, or any other, gets argumentative about off-topic subjects, I usually tune out and leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sisyphus2 Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 I here what people are saying and its nice to have a space away from reality at times, but its very hard to be neutral when posting a comment / thread about someone like Cat Stevens can spark a list of political comments. A great deal of good guitar music is also political -from Woody Guthrie to Christie Moore......But it would be sad if the emphasis on guitar music was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 As far as posts and threads go, I think the HCAG community has been pretty good about how we treat rabble rousing politicos and anti-religious trolls: a request for the troll to stop and then quit feeding the troll. Sigs ... what sigs? I turned those off a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roughtrade Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Does that mean that Ovation players can post now?:poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members babablowfish Posted October 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 I here what people are saying and its nice to have a space away from reality at times, but its very hard to be neutral when posting a comment / thread about someone like Cat Stevens can spark a list of political comments. A great deal of good guitar music is also political -from Woody Guthrie to Christie Moore......But it would be sad if the emphasis on guitar music was lost. It should be possible to post a thread about Cat Stevens' music without the need to refer to the man, his politics or his religion. In fact, there was a Cat Stevens thread not too long ago. When people started defending or attacking him, I pointed out that both positions were destructive to the harmony here at Harmony Central AGF. I agree that some music is inherently political. Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Phil Oches all come to mind. Love the music; no comment on the politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Igorance is bliss: I turned of sigs years ago. They're a waste of space; I hate scrolling. If someone irks me, they go on my ignore list. If only real life were that easy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 I agree that some music is inherently political. Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Phil Oches all come to mind. Love the music; no comment on the politics. and generally speaking, Cat Stevens' music is not political or religious.Dylan's later stuff is not so political. I never liked Joan Baez much; still don't. She has plenty of fans and surely doesn't need me.But hey, you know we dont have these "issues" (as we are fond of saying in Ann Arbor) with instrumentals, which is the lion's share of what I listen to & play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 If someone irks me, they go on my ignore list. If only real life were that easy! LOL! HCAGF is a pretty nice place, all things considered. And the other forums on H-C? Wow.........certainly not my cup of tea. My post count is mostly from the Amp Forum "back in the day", before it turned into a complete zoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Here, here, Baba, well said. One thing that people may not consider when they compose an offensive message in their sig is that I make some judgements about them - most of the time negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drnihili Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 If you don't like sigs, turn them the hell off. Thought policing is infinitely more offensive than 98% of the signatures you browbeat people over. If you don't want to be hall monitor, then stop going out of your way to be one. I'm all for keeping politics and religion out of the discussions, but frankly sigs are a different issue. You don't have to look at them and a person's signature isn't limited to this forum. We have some right to ask people to abide by our standards of behavior in what they post here. We have no right whatsoever to ask them to change their signature across the board as a prerequisite. As for religious attacks, it's pretty routine to have signatures bashing non-christians. Of course the forum thought police never feel compelled to comment on them. I've seen lots of relligious discussions that go beyond guitar talk here - as long as they're christian the local Mcarthys are fine with it. It's only when things stray from that that they get their panties in a wad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 If you don't like sigs, turn them the hell off. Interesting, I didn't know that was an option. Thanks for the info! Under User CP, it is possible to turn off people's sigs, avatars, and attached images by checking/unchecking the appropriate boxes. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Sorry, but I can not recall any religous discussions in this fourm recently. This is the most civil forum on Harmony-Central. Baba's message was nonparitsan: "Keep the politics and religion off the forum." Many forums have similiar rules that are enforced by heavy handed moderators. We are lucky to not have that here. It will remain that way as long as we all remain civil with each other. I enjoy freedom of speech, but that is not a license to offend. HC has a Political forum for those type of discussions. Spend some time there and you will see why most of us prefer to avoid those discussions here. I don't know why Baba's message would be offensive to anyone here that enjoys the acoustic guitar fellowship we all share. He didn't tell anyone what to think or what his personal beliefs are. He just ask people to leave this stuff at the door. I agree with him. Sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. I made them as a person that enjoys your company. For those that don't know, here's how to turn of the signatures: Go to user CP (control panel) at the top of the page. Click on "Edit Options" on the left side of the page. Scroll down to "Thread Display Options" and uncheck the box that says: "Show Signatures". You can also block avatars by unchecking the "Show Avatars" box, but then you wouldn't see Batman here anymore... For the record, I leave my signatures on so I can get a feel for people's personalities. Some people chose to have funny signatures or a list of their gear. I enjoy reading both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sisyphus2 Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Then there's the arguement that its impossible to be non political - if you ignore and issues your coluding, if we dont talk about chinese made guitars are we some how by abstaining supporting the regime?....Forgive me Im a lawyer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members denvertrakker Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 For the record, I leave my signatures on so I can get a feel for people's personalities. Some people chose to have funny signatures or a list of their gear. I enjoy reading both. +1. It's part of the fun. The problem comes when some of the...um...less aware posters have something in their sig that's offensive. I see nothing wrong in asking the more egregious offenders to clean up their act, rather than just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drnihili Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 +1. It's part of the fun. The problem comes when some of the...um...less aware posters have something in their sig that's offensive. I see nothing wrong in asking the more egregious offenders to clean up their act, rather than just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So you leave signatures on intentionally to get a feel for the person, and then when one strikes you wrong you ask the person to change it? Seems like you value your "fun" more than you value other people. Mighty big of you there. If you want to get to know people, you have to accept that you won't like some of them and that it's not your place that to demand that they change so as to not interfere with your fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hamhand Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Commas, counselor, lol. Thanks Baba you are wise beyond Gabby's years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Then there's the arguement that its impossible to be non political - if you ignore and issues your coluding, if we dont talk about chinese made guitars are we some how by abstaining supporting the regime?....Forgive me Im a lawyer! You can still post here due to a Article 6 Section 9 of the user agreement disclaimer: "Lawyers may be guitar players, therefore they are allowed to post if they prove said claim." Seriously, no one wants to limit thoughts or topics, we just want to avoid the obvious offensive hot button topics. I think most of us know what they are, but it's always good to have a legal staff on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Personally I don't have any problems with politics as it relates to music, particularly guitar music. Many of the greatest modern guitar players carried some sort of social or political message in their playing - and I was brought up on the music of Pete Seeger and Woody (and Arlo) and Joan and all the others. I also don't have any problems with discussing politics as it pertains to guitars in general - we face some huge challenges with respect to the future of woods and materials, imports, all kinds of things that have political ramifications. What personally offends me are the avatars and sigs that are intended for one purpose - to offend me. Most of the time these carry some sort of really offensive sexual or in-you-face message - I don't like being flipped off, I don't like jokes about violent sex, I don't care for your scatalogical proclivities. However, I'm not going to turn off sigs because I really want to know what you find important. If offending me and others on the forum is important I want to know that because I want nothing further to do with you. That was aimed at no one in particular, but if you think it might be you, well, it might have been.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sisyphus2 Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 :lol . This forum is great! You can still post here due to a Article 6 Section 9 of the user agreement disclaimer: "Lawyers may be guitar players, therefore they are allowed to post if they prove said claim." Seriously, no one wants to limit thoughts or topics, we just want to avoid the obvious offensive hot button topics. I think most of us know what they are, but it's always good to have a legal staff on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drnihili Posted October 27, 2007 Members Share Posted October 27, 2007 Sorry, but I can not recall any religous discussions in this fourm recently. This is the most civil forum on Harmony-Central. Baba's message was nonparitsan: "Keep the politics and religion off the forum." Many forums have similiar rules that are enforced by heavy handed moderators. We are lucky to not have that here. It will remain that way as long as we all remain civil with each other. No, we have self-appointed hall monitors instead. I've been on forums with moderators who enforce this sort of stuff, heck I've even been a moderator on such a forum. I enjoy freedom of speech, but that is not a license to offend. You need to review what freedom of speech is. It does indeed include a license to offend. It absolutely does not include a license to not be offended. Saying that you enjoy freedom of speech as long as it's not offensive to you is like saying you enjoy freedom of religion as long as everyone follows yours. HC has a Political forum for those type of discussions. Spend some time there and you will see why most of us prefer to avoid those discussions here. Again, there is a difference between signatures and discussion. You have the ability to not look at signatures, and signatures are the same in the Political forum as they are here. Posters can't have different signatures for different sub-fora. You however can opt to turn signatures off. Better yet, you can choose to try to exercise some degree of tolerance and understanding toward your fellow humans rather than insisting that they march in lock step with your vision of how things should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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