A Plea for Probity

[Terry Allan Hall]

What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead lawyer in the road? There are skid marks in front of the skunk. What do you call seven lawyers under the sea? - A good start!!

Stan: My ex-wife's divorce lawyer took the cow to Australia on my dime and right now they're out scuba diving at the Great Barrier Reef, amongst the Great White sharks...and the weird thing is that, even though Great White's eat a lot of people, they just ignore him. Wonder why?

Dan: My best guess is "professional courtesy"...

[Fred Fartboski]

Dear Fellow Forumites - Lately there has been a recurrence of political invective in signatures and even in some posts. I am not the moderator, nor do I really want to play the role of the hallway monitor. But trust me on this, if we allow politics onto the site there is going to be an eventual eruption of rage that will destroy the community we have built. I speak from experience having formerly been an active member of a site that became so torn by rancor over politics that it became a most unwelcome place. (I haven't visited there in several years.) Everyone has an opinion. Where that opinion has to do with Mahogany vs Rosewood, TUSQ vs FWI, Ebony vs Micarta, Solids vs Laminates, etc, we are easily able to keep it civil and humorous. When politics comes into the picture it can get ugly quickly. Remember the interlopers who came here to attack Terry - that was over politics. I stood up for Terry because the interlopers had no business bringing politics onto the site, not as an expression of solidarity or disagreement with anyone's political point of view. If you value what we have here, and I do, I ask you all to just keep it civil and non-political.

 

 

Agreed. There is a forum here for politics and partisan namecalling: "The PP". I enjoy the sport and, am an active member of it, and I hang my dirty laundry there. Anybody, left or right, needs to let some political steam off, come on down.

[Sisyphus2]

Stan: My ex-wife's divorce lawyer took the cow to Australia on my dime and right now they're out scuba diving at the Great Barrier Reef, amongst the Great White sharks...and the weird thing is that, even though Great White's eat a lot of people, they just ignore him. Wonder why? Dan: My best guess is "professional courtesy"...

 

 

How do you stop a lawyer from drowning?

Shoot him before he hits the water.

Take your foot off his head.

[Terry Allan Hall]

How do you stop a lawyer from drowning? Shoot him before he hits the water. Take your foot off his head.

 

 

Did you hear they just released a new Barbie doll called "Divorced Barbie"?

 

Yeah, it comes with half of Ken's things and alimony.

 

**************************

 

 

Did you hear about the lawyer hurt in an accident?

 

An ambulance stopped suddenly.

 

**************************

 

 

A lawyer was driving his big BMW down the highway, singing to himself, "I love my BMW, I love my BMW." Focusing on his car, not his driving, he smashed into a tree. He miraculously survived, but his car was totaled. "My BMW! My BMW!" he sobbed.

 

A good Samaritan drove by and cried out, "Sir, sir, you're bleeding! And my god, your left arm is gone!"

 

The lawyer, horrified, screamed "My Rolex! My Rolex!"

 

**************************

 

 

How many personal injury attorneys does it take to change a light bulb?

 

Three--one to turn the bulb, one to shake him off the ladder, and the third to sue the ladder company.

 

**************************

 

 

A gang of robbers broke into a lawyer's club by mistake. The old legal lions gave them a fight for their life and their money. The gang was very happy to escape.

 

"It ain't so bad," one crook noted. "We got $25 between us."

 

The boss screamed: "I warned you to stay clear of lawyers -- we had $100 when we broke in!"

[Sisyphus2]

I think weve run out of lawyer jokes now!!

[Fred Fartboski]

A musician, a pastor, a rabbi and a goat walk into a bar...

[Sisyphus2]

A musician, a pastor, a rabbi and a goat walk into a bar...

 

 

and???

[roughtrade]

and???

Got drunk:)

[missedmyexit]

 

I figure the poster wants us all to know that they suffer from a mental illness or are ignorant. Either way, it's a fair warning to those of us that don't associate with people like those that find that type of stuff appropriate in a public forum. Luckily, most of those "special people" usually stay off this forum.

 

 

 

Yup.. I'm of the opinion that people who tosses something of that nature in their Sig want a reaction. As a rule I tend to do the opposite. They obviously want attention.. I just refuse to give it to them. I've have seen Freeman use this strategy in a couple posts that have Sig's that offended him and just refused to respond unless they change their Sig. Which works well for Freeman since he seems to have the answers to everyone's guitar related questions.

 

I keep Sigs on because some people have links to their music, which when the mood strikes me I like going and checking out. There are some (TAH's comes to mind) that I don't think I ever read because it is long and frankly I'm lazy. Anything over three lines in a SIG and I move on. Doesn't "bother me" that the SIG is long, I have a mouse wheel and if anyone ever catches me complaining about the efforts of scrolling please fly to Boston and punch me in the mouth. There is only so much laziness I can tolerate even from myself.

 

Baba has in the past posted similar "stay on topic" threads and although they tend to breed off topic conversations more then quell them. It's not a bad idea to have one thread to clear the air and then get back on point.

[Broadus]

I've stayed out of this but decided to add my 2 cents worth. I enjoy reading the sigs and I've found some good sites because of links in them. A signature is objectionable to me if it is bashing someone else or another system of thought or if it is sexually gratuitous. If someone states positively his belief in something, I do not find that offensive, regardless of my agreeing or disagreeing with it.

 

For instance, while I am a Christian, I am not in the least offended by someone's having a sig which puts forth a different philosophy or religion or belief system as long as the sig is put forth positively as something in which that person believes. What I would have a problem with is someone bashing another religion or philosophy or whatever. I really don't mind someone putting in a positive way a statement which succinctly states a political point of view. Again, I draw the line if someone is writing negatively against a particular politician or policy. While my sig may offend some, it is not intended to. It simply states positively my deeply held belief.

 

I may be charged with making distinctions without a difference, but I reject that charge. To those who claim that toleration requires no limits, my response is that everyone draws the line somewhere. Basically, a given community will decide where that line is.

 

That said, this is a wonderful forum. Only rarely, it seems, is there an issue. I agree that threads should stay somewhere in the realm of acoustic guitars, but, as mentioned above, sigs provide an insight, however dimly, into the personality of the particular forumite, and I appreciate that.

 

Bill

[drnihili]

Basically, a given community will decide where that line is.

 

 

My point is that the relevant community for sigs is the wider forum. That is not the relevant community for posts. Trying to require that sigs meet the community standards for posts would be analogous to china trying to enforce it's views on acceptable content on the internet as a whole rather than merely within its own borders.

 

People who do not want to be members of the wider community have the option to isolate themselves by turning off sigs. If they choose not to do so, for whatever reason, they do not thereby obligate others to conform to their standards, however offended they may be at what they see.

[Broadus]

What do you mean by "wider forum"?

 

Bill

[missedmyexit]

My point is that the relevant community for sigs is the wider forum. That is not the relevant community for posts. Trying to require that sigs meet the community standards for posts would be analogous to china trying to enforce it's views on acceptable content on the internet as a whole rather than merely within its own borders. People who do not want to be members of the wider community have the option to isolate themselves by turning off sigs. If they choose not to do so, for whatever reason, they do not thereby obligate others to conform to their standards, however offended they may be at what they see.

 

 

I understand and to a point agree. But at the end of the day the poster is likely asking for free advice and knowledge about something. If they have a SIG that offends the person with the answers to their questions, it's unlikely they will get a answer. I see nothing wrong with someone who is willing to take the time to answer the question asking them to remove the content in question. The poster can then remove it and get a answer or ignore the suggestion, keep the SIG and hope someone else has the answer.

 

Avoiding offending a person you are asking for help in my opinion is common sense.

[drnihili]

What do you mean by "wider forum"? Bill

 

 

I mean Harmony Central as a whole, not just the acoustic guitar sub forum. Sigs are set for the wider forum, your sig is the same no matter where you post. Further, when you change your sig, it is changed for all posts you have ever made anywhere on Harmony Central, not just for future posts. If someone changes a sig to ask a question in AG, and then later changes it back, the original sig will then appear on AG. Sigs are calculated when a post is viewed, they are not archived in their original form.

 

This is why the community standards of AG are not relevant for sigs.

[drnihili]

I understand and to a point agree. But at the end of the day the poster is likely asking for free advice and knowledge about something. If they have a SIG that offends the person with the answers to their questions, it's unlikely they will get a answer. I see nothing wrong with someone who is willing to take the time to answer the question asking them to remove the content in question. The poster can then remove it and get a answer or ignore the suggestion, keep the SIG and hope someone else has the answer. Avoiding offending a person you are asking for help in my opinion is common sense.

 

 

No one is under any obligation to answer questions here. You can refrain from helping merely because you don't like the number of posts a particular poster has. If you think that someone's sig, avatar, name, grammar, etc. will keep them from getting the help they're looking for, common courtesy suggests you bring this to their attention. Common courtesy also suggests that you try to do so in a polite and quiet way. PMs work quite well for this. If you worry that the poster may not read their PMs, there are ways to include the info in a post without making a huge deal about it.

 

I don't object to people choosing who to respond to based on the content of their sig (or any other reason). I do not object to helping people get better responses. I do object to making a big show of being offended and pretending that people are trespassing on community standards and are somehow morally obligated to change their sigs as a result. This latter sort of behavior has far more to do with self-righteousness and attention seeking than it does with giving or receiving help.

[Queequeg]

This is a guitar forum. All of HC is a music forum. Yes, I am aware of the political and open jam boards there, too.

One thing it is not though, it is not a soft porn forum. When a user puts something into his signature that falls into that category...

1.I won't answer his question

and

2. I'll tell him why I won't answer his question.

I consider it something of a personal favor, not an insult. Like spinach in your teeth or walking around with your fly down. Most people want to be told, so they can take corrective measures. He can ignore it if he chooses.

And I could ignore him and others could or would or will ignore him, but letting him know that his comment is offensive and has a negative impact on others and makes for a negative impression of him is not an unkind gesture on my part.

I'm sure there are plenty of xxx websites and chat rooms where they'll think his signature is simply wonderful. We have people of all ages (including minors) and religions and ethnic backgrounds here.

It is a measure of respect to be mindful of this.Violating community standards often results in unanticipated consequences.

[missedmyexit]

This is a guitar forum. All of HC is a music forum. Yes, I am aware of the political and open jam boards there, too. One thing it is not though, it is not a soft porn forum. When a user puts something into his signature that falls into that category... 1.I won't answer his question and 2. I'll tell him why I won't answer his question. I consider it something of a personal favor, not an insult. Like spinach in your teeth or walking around with your fly down. Most people want to be told, so they can take corrective measures. He can ignore it if he chooses. And I could ignore him and others could or would or will ignore him, but letting him know that his comment is offensive and has a negative impact on others and makes for a negative impression of him is not an unkind gesture on my part. I'm sure there are plenty of xxx websites and chat rooms where they'll think his signature is simply wonderful. We have people of all ages (including minors) and religions and ethnic backgrounds here. It is a measure of respect to be mindful of this.Violating community standards often results in unanticipated consequences.

 

 

I agree with most of this up to the "I consider it a personal favor". I think on some of the more offensive Sigs offending can be the only motive.

 

That said for myself not much really "Offends" me. I have asked in the past some people to tone some stuff down not because I am offended but more to try to curb a possible flame war.

 

The softcore porn Avatars do bother me sometimes because I am often at work when I post and if someone walks by and glances in my cube who knows what they will think.

[bsman]

does anybody find my sig offensive?

[totamus]

There is a political forum right here on HC, it is called "the Political Party" and is in "General Forums". I am really into politics and world events and could discuss all day long. I used to post in the political forum, but don't anymore. That is because BBBF is absolutely correct, the political views are so polarizing that it tears the forum apart. It is not a friendly discussion. Politics are great, but not in this forum. We are all here for one reason, and it is neither politics nor religion...

[babablowfish]

Tell you what - why not go to this thread - $175.00 - Good Price for Harmony H1260? - I won't bump it but it is easy to find - and see for yourself if you think the sig and subsequent posts are appropriate. This is the thread/posts that sparked me to start this thread to remind folks about our agreement to refrain from such comments. Also note that this member had posted here for some time and then suddenly switched to this offensive nonsense, so it is not a matter of someone with a long-standing sig innocently wandering in here unawares.

[denvertrakker]

This is a guitar forum. All of HC is a music forum. Yes, I am aware of the political and open jam boards there, too. One thing it is not though, it is not a soft porn forum. When a user puts something into his signature that falls into that category... 1.I won't answer his question and 2. I'll tell him why I won't answer his question. I consider it something of a personal favor, not an insult. Like spinach in your teeth or walking around with your fly down. Most people want to be told, so they can take corrective measures. He can ignore it if he chooses. And I could ignore him and others could or would or will ignore him, but letting him know that his comment is offensive and has a negative impact on others and makes for a negative impression of him is not an unkind gesture on my part. I'm sure there are plenty of xxx websites and chat rooms where they'll think his signature is simply wonderful. We have people of all ages (including minors) and religions and ethnic backgrounds here. It is a measure of respect to be mindful of this.Violating community standards often results in unanticipated consequences.

 

 

That pretty much sums it up for me. Why is it so hard to grasp?

[drnihili]

 

Also note that this member had posted here for some time and then suddenly switched to this offensive nonsense, so it is not a matter of someone with a long-standing sig innocently wandering in here unawares.

 

 

Which of course means that it's not a matter of your politely and discreetly bringing someone's faux pas to their attention. Rather it's an attempt to enforce local standards on global behavior.

 

You might find some of the terms in the signature offensive, or you might not agree with the implied claim, but it's not nonsense. Furthermore, signatures are irrelevant to any imaginary covenant you claim everyone agreed to. Signatures are not posts.

 

While Gutarcapo's initial response to you was overly harsh, IMO by far the most offensive behavior in that thread is yours.

[Queequeg]

Let me make myself perfectly clear: When someone stormed in here a while back with a blatantly sexual and extremely offensive signature asking for advice, I gave him some advice, if perhaps not the answer he was looking for. Its sort of the No Shirt/No shoes/No service. There is a modicum of decorum here. When someone chooses to flagrantly violate that with obscenities, then ignoring it is condoning it. There are minors on this forum.

I'm not deciding for everyone. He was deciding that his signature would be considered acceptable here and I wasn't playing along.

I could have reported him to the mods and he would have been banned until he changed it.

That was the move.

 

edit: This was written in response to a post that a forumite chose to withdraw.

[Simon76]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response

 

[DonK]

Wow, I figured this thread would get a few responses and then die quietly. I was going to pass it by because I've been working late and didn't have time for a proper response, but here goes.

 

Synthesizing from what others have said, my views go like this:

 

- There are some artists whose work is pretty much inseparable from politics, or at least political implications. Pete Seeger, Woodie Guthrie, and Bob Dylan come to mine. My guitar hero Stephen Stills has written his share of political songs, as have his friends Crosby, Nash & Young. Discussion involving such artists is bound to engender discussions about their politics at times.

 

- It can be very difficult to separate the message (even if it's apolitical) when the messenger has a history of advocating what most people would consider offensive behavior. If you've ever heard of a group like, say, Prussian Blue, you know what I mean. That said, offensive behavior is often - like beauty - in the eye of the beholder. So something that one of thinks should be off limits may not approach being offensive to someone else.

 

- Sigs are a means of expression - a way of communicating something about oneself to other forum members, whether that something be "good" or "bad". The forum a member gravitates to above others often influences his choice of signature characteristics. I began here at HC when it was all one big forum; later, when it became multiple forums, I spent most of my time in GJ, EJ and the Amp forum. In those forums it's common to list one's gear in his signature, which is how I came to list all my stuff. If I'd started out by hanging in the PP forum, I'd probably have a few pity-but-hopefully-profound quotes in my sig, one or more of which might be provocative to some people. Similarly, if I'd started off spending most of my time here at AG, I would never have listed my stuff; it would seem too ostentatious (but hey, it's been out there for a long time now, so I've decided to stick with it a while longer).

 

- If I find someone's sig offensive (obviously, by my definition, not someone else's), I simply avoid responding to their posts, just as I'd avoid interacting at a party or gathering with someone making racist or otherwise insulting remarks, or someone wearing a t-shirt with a racist or insulting saying. I don't feel any compulsion to interact or hang with such people, but they have the right to express themselves within the bounds of the law.

 

Just my $.02.