Members Hudman Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Apparently, I'm the exception. How many Zager owners peaked into this forum and saw all the Zager Haters and said, I don't think I want to participate on this forum. We'll never know. And that's a shame. It's a shame he sells Sigma guitars as Martin Sigma DM's and doesn't show the name on the headstock. I admire your efforts to convert the non-believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 If you read my post and what you extrapolate from it is, "Anyone who purchases a Zager is an unsuspecting dupe," then you are reading into it inferences that simply are not there. I don't know how to take your comment without making that inference.I am confused as to why you are so personally defensive about references to Zager's false claims. You and others may assume that ALL of the claims are false. I do not think that ALL of the claims are false. The "Easy Play" claim was true for me becuase my ZAD 80 plays alot easier than my Yamaha.I also want to point out that while you are accusing me of making generalizations, you yourself are making references to "all newbys" and the impact my so-called generalizations have on them. How can you possibly speak for "all newbys," which would happen to include me, and how we all feel? Isn't this a generalization? Yes, but I was speaking specifcally about Zager guitar owners that come to this forum as newbys. Do you own a Zager guitar? If so then I would include you in my generalization. I'm considered a newby as well.As in the post where you offer Hudman a "deal" that would require him to silence his opinions on Zager, you are choosing to interpret a negative comment about Zager as a personal statement about yourself. I do not know you, so I am making no such statement. I am saying that Zager is making false claims, and that there are potential customers out there who are not aware that these claims are false, and that some forum members have made negative comments about Zager because they want to warn people who may not be aware. Why do you and a few others feel it is your obligation to warn anybody after they have already bought their new Zager guitar. That's how you make Zager owners feel like Chumps. Sorry to hear about your girl friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 It's a shame he sells Sigma guitars as Martin Sigma DM's and doesn't show the name on the headstock. I admire your efforts to convert the non-believers. I agree that the Ebay ad for Martin guitars is misleading and I have mentioned this before. I am not trying to convert anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Why do you and a few others feel it is your obligation to warn anybody after they have already bought their new Zager guitar. That's how you make Zager owners feel like Chumps. Sorry to hear about your girl friend. Did you buy your guitar to make yourself happy or did you buy it get approval from strangers on the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 "the potential for unsuspecting buyers to be duped by dishonest sales tactics." This is a good example of what I am referring to. You may think an unsuspecting buyer was duped. The buyer may not. When you make generalizations like this it impacts all newbies that may want to be apart of this forum and contribute. You're making generalizations yourself but the reality of it is that anyone who purchases anything without complete knowledge of that item is being duped. They may be being duped by the sales blurbs, sales person or even by themselves but they certainly are still being duped. Now, if one makes that purchase with full information and believes that he's received enough information that he can make a valued, informed decision, then and only then and it be said he was not duped. So, in my mind, anyone who goes to the Zager site and purchases a guitar, only going by the information available there, is being duped. You may feel other wise. It's really curious why you have taken this whole thing so personally. Again, it all boils down to the fact that some of us are simply trying to make folks who may be unaware that the hype Zager is putting out is misleading and dishonest aware of it. None of us have said the guitars are bad. If one understands what is going on and purchases one of their guitars, well and good. Enjoy it and we'll be happy that person is pleased with the purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Apparently, I'm the exception. How many Zager owners peaked into this forum and saw all the Zager Haters and said, I don't think I want to participate on this forum. We'll never know. And that's a shame. Peeked! Well, I suppose to some coming here could well be a peak in their online forum experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Did you buy your guitar to make yourself happy or did you buy it get approval from strangers on the internet? I bought my guitar because I wanted it. And please do not call me a "freak":freak: You are probably an excellent chess player! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Jeez. Glad to see you all got to the bottem of this Zager thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17.817 Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Why do you and a few others feel it is your obligation to warn anybody after they have already bought their new Zager guitar. That's how you make Zager owners feel like Chumps. Again, I have made no references to warning buyers after they have made a purchase. A warning about doing something after it has already been done wouldn't make a lot of sense. I am referring to potential buyers. Your post also says that I have made the assumption that "ALL of the claims are false." I have neither made nor indicated any such assumption. I have referred to false claims, yes. But you yourself have created the "All" portion of that. I never said "All." I will say, though, that at least where I am concerned, if I am entering into a monetary transaction with someone and I become aware that this transaction is in part predicated on false claims, I do not require ALL claims related to the transaction to be false in order to decide that it is wise for me to pull out. Not ALL of my girlfriend's claims were untrue - only the one (as far as I know). One falsehood was enough. "Yes, but I was speaking specifcally about Zager guitar owners that come to this forum as newbys. Do you own a Zager guitar? If so then I would include you in my generalization."What I meant was that it is a strange thing to do, to accuse me of making generalizations, and then make one yourself. Even if I do own a Zager (and I do not think that whether or not I do is relevant here), you would be wrong to include me in any such generalization. If I did own a Zager (and I am not saying that I don't), I would not feel the least bit chumpified by the anti-Zager sentiment here, because it applies to the seller and not to me. I am only a dupe if I consider myself to be a dupe. Anonymous people on the internet cannot make me feel any particular way about myself. In any case, you did not post "specifically about Zager guitar owners that come to this forum as newbys." You referred to "all newbys," which is much more general. Thanks for clarifying, but it is still an inaccurate generalization even if reduced to Zager guitar owners. You cannot speak for all of them simply because you own a Zager. If I own a Zager, do I speak for you? If I own a Martin, is my opinion of every comment made about Martin guitars automatically shared by every Martin owner? We are talking about guitars, not blood relations (as if any two of my relatives agree on anything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members babablowfish Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Baba, I do not appreciate you including my comment. It was a statement about how fanatical the other Zager posters were being about their purchases. Also, when asked to provide pictures and/or clips, they disappeared, I just found that weird. The only one who actually provided SOMETHING (pictures) was TC. I still think Zagers are overpriced. Whatever, I think a lot of stuff is overpriced, IMO. "Inferiority complexes abound when the product is inferior." Sorry, but I still find that personally insulting to the owners and clearly a negative comment on the guitar - something most of the Zager critics have tried to avoid doing. Look folks, I am not trying to make enemies here. All I am doing is speaking up as you all have done for something I think is important. I believe that it is possible to be critical without resorting to ridicule, insults or otherwise making people feel unwelcome. I don't care for Zager guitars and find Denny Zager's sales tactics questionable and annoying. That there are shills on the forum is a given as far as I am concerned and I don't like it one bit. But I believe that TC is on the level and I believe that there are other happy Zager owners out there. I don't see why they can't be part of the group and feel welcome. All I ask is we all - and I have been guilty of it in the past as well - try to gauge the impact of what we say. If you feel the need to flame me, go ahead, I will survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cripes Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Man. There's a lot of cabin fever festering around here. You all need to move south and enjoy year-round access to the great outdoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17.817 Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Man. There's a lot of cabin fever festering around here. You all need to move south and enjoy year-round access to the great outdoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 ....I found your statement a problem: "Many people don't like to admit they've been conned, I guess." The implication is that the Zager buyers were conned. I would find that insulting if I bought a guitar I truly loved and read that I had been conned...... See, I don't see that as an implication that all Zager buyers were conned, only some of them, and I don't think that can be disputed. Others may well feel they got a great deal. If that's the case, kudos to them. Enjoy. Post pics and sound clips. What if find interesting is, with what, one exception, there have been no photos of the guitars and I have yet to see a link to a sound sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cripes Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Or, not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 CF Martin never said the Sigma was a Martin Sigma, they said is was a Sigma by CF Martin. Big difference. I also believe that, because Martin guitars are not mail order, any confusion should have been addressed by the salesperson who sold the guitar. Martin also never espoused the Sigma was the end all, be all of guitars. So let me get this straight. You're trying to tell me there's a big difference between Martin Sigma and Sigma by Martin? If Martin wasn't trying to con unsuspecting customers into believing they were buying a real Martin then why do they put the Martin logo on the headstock of every Sigma guitar they sell? Why do they put their big Martin logo on the sound hole label inside the guitar? Why do they put their logo all over the paperwork and warranty that comes with all Martin guitars that says Nazareth Pennsylvania all over it saying they've been building them since 1833? If this isn't deceptive business practices then I don't know what is. Martin knew exactly what they were doing and should be ashamed of themselves. Oh...and the few times I've gone into guitar shops asking to see a lower priced Martin guess which model the salesmen always show me.....you guessed it...SIGMA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 See, I don't see that as an implication that all Zager buyers were conned, only some of them, and I don't think that can be disputed. Others may well feel they got a great deal. If that's the case, kudos to them. Enjoy. Post pics and sound clips.What if find interesting is, with what, one exception, there have been no photos of the guitars and I have yet to see a link to a sound sample. I don't understand your logic about posting photos or links to sound samples. If someone does not post a picture or sound link then does that make them a shill? I had a hard time posting the 2 pic that I did post and I needed help with that from Oldguitarplayer. I had to download them over and over. Here's a sound link to a ZAD 80 http://www.zagerguitar.com/index.php?event=public.guitars.models&model=zad80om&id=3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 See, I don't see that as an implication that all Zager buyers were conned, only some of them, and I don't think that can be disputed. Others may well feel they got a great deal. If that's the case, kudos to them. Enjoy. Post pics and sound clips.What if find interesting is, with what, one exception, there have been no photos of the guitars and I have yet to see a link to a sound sample. I just came from the Zager website and they say that if you're not happy with you're guitar they'll pick it up and pay shipping both ways. How is Zager duping anyone with a return policy like this? If you don't like it you can send it back and you get all your money. I've purchased many guitars via mail order from many companies (and been ripped off on a few but that's a different story) and not one of them offered a return policy like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17.817 Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 I just came from the Zager website and they say that if you're not happy with you're guitar they'll pick it up and pay shipping both ways. How is Zager duping anyone with a return policy like this? A good return policy does not mitigate a false sales pitch. If I advertise re-labeled BVDs as magic underpants that will protect you from serious injury and hair loss and impotence, the fact that I may be willing to accept returns at my expense does not make my claims any less false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 So let me get this straight. You're trying to tell me there's a big difference between Martin Sigma and Sigma by Martin? If Martin wasn't trying to con unsuspecting customers into believing they were buying a real Martin then why do they put the Martin logo on the headstock of every Sigma guitar they sell? Why do they put their big Martin logo on the sound hole label inside the guitar? Why do they put their logo all over the paperwork and warranty that comes with all Martin guitars that says Nazareth Pennsylvania all over it saying they've been building them since 1833? If this isn't deceptive business practices then I don't know what is. Martin knew exactly what they were doing and should be ashamed of themselves. Oh...and the few times I've gone into guitar shops asking to see a lower priced Martin guess which model the salesmen always show me.....you guessed it...SIGMA! Let me preface this, I do not own a Martin and have had no real desire to purchase one so I'm not a Martin advocate. Sigma by Martin tells me that it is a guitar that is provided by Martin, not necessarily a Martin though of the same company. You may correlate it, IMO, to, if you wish, a Geo Metro being built for Chevrolet by Suzuki. The Sigma was built for Martin by Samick in the same vein. As to you're going into a guitar shop and asking to be shown a lower priced Martin and being shown a Sigma.....That is a salesperson's problem with product knowledge or their possibly sensing an easy mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 I don't understand your logic about posting photos or links to sound samples. If someone does not post a picture or sound link then does that make them a shill? I had a hard time posting the 2 pic that I did post and I needed help with that from Oldguitarplayer. I had to download them over and over.Here's a sound link to a ZAD 80http://www.zagerguitar.com/index.php?event=public.guitars.models&model=zad80om&id=3 Really, that's you? Here I thought it was Denny Zager playing that demo clip. :poke: Posting actual, photos, not generic stock photos from the website, and actual sound clips, also not from the website, adds credibility to your claims of actually owning the guitar. Now, how about a real audio clip of you playing something, anything, on your Zager. I'll help you get it posted. Hell, I'll even host it on my site for a while. Just let me know when you have it ready and I'll let you know what email address to post it to so I make sure I have enough room in my inbox for it though if it's a MP3 file there won't be a problem on any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 I just came from the Zager website and they say that if you're not happy with you're guitar they'll pick it up and pay shipping both ways. How is Zager duping anyone with a return policy like this? If you don't like it you can send it back and you get all your money. I've purchased many guitars via mail order from many companies (and been ripped off on a few but that's a different story) and not one of them offered a return policy like this. HalsJamin43 I would suggest you read all the latest Zager threads before you go into that last. The return policy is not the point. the deceptive claims and advertising are. You're coming in here, it seems, half cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 New posters like HalsJamin43 always pop up to defend Zager. No surprise there. Sigma guitars don't have the Martin logo on the headstock. Sigma guitars have the "Sigma" logo on their headstocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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