Zager (yes, this post is different)

[Berkleo]

Las Vegas, Nevada

 

Sublime!

[HalsJamin43]

 

Yes, if it were on a page about the importance of setups, it would be proper. To place it as a review is deception, IMO. Best, Bill

 

 

Instead of going after Zager who seems to be helping a lot of people why don't you go after a real crook >>> http://www.surftilyoudrop.tv/images/esteban.jpg

[Broadus]

This is your response? Geez..It sure is funny how quiet the naysayers get when they're shut down on every front.

 

Oh, Charlotte. Whenever someone will concede nothing in a debate, that person isn't interested in truth but in winning.

 

I've conceded that Zagers may be decent-sounding gits and easy to play. I'm concerned about what Denny does to get the playability (e.g. filing the frets so the action can be lowered even more, widening the string placement too close to the edge of the fretboard, and such), but that's another story.

 

On the other hand, unlike some Zager owners who have conceded that some of Denny's marketing is unethical, you've conceded nothing to my recollection (this thread has taken on a life of its own). All you've done is tossed emotive-laden and unsubstantiated charges. One time, you say that a $4000 Taylor costs only $500 to build and then you say it costs $2000 to build. You bash Taylor and those who question Zager.

 

Will you answer my question about the use of the AGM quote by Zager as deception. Zager uses it in his magazine reviews page, but AGM says nothing about Zager, just the importance of a good setup. If you're unwilling to concede this, then I'll not waste my time with you.

 

Bill

[Broadus]

 

Instead of going after Zager who seems to be helping a lot of people why don't you go after a real crook >>> http://www.surftilyoudrop.tv/images/esteban.jpg

 

 

Actually, I'm not "going after" Zager; I didn't start the thread. These are concerns I have, and they have to do with how they are marketed, statements that are made, etc.

 

Concerning Esteban, you can rest assured that when a thread pops up about him, there is plenty of warning. Not much love for Estaban most anywhere, that I've seen.

 

I do consider Esteban much more egregious than Zager. At least Zager guitars apparently sound good and are playable. Estaban is another story entirely.

 

Bill

[17.817]

 

Instead of going after Zager who seems to be helping a lot of people why don't you go after a real crook >>> http://www.surftilyoudrop.tv/images/esteban.jpg

 

 

Why go after only one or the other? There is plenty of scorn to go around for all crooks, and Esteban does not seem to have escaped his share on this forum. The fact that Esteban is deceptive too doesn't excuse or minimize Zager's deceptions.

[Broadus]

 

Bill. sadly you are too far away from the Cumberland Arms but may I recommend a similar remedy.

 

 

Yep, we're in a rut.

 

Bill

[Charlotte941]

 

Oh, Charlotte. Whenever someone will concede nothing in a debate, that person isn't interested in truth but in winning. I've conceded that Zagers may be decent-sounding gits and easy to play. I'm concerned about what Denny does to get the playability (e.g. filing the frets so the action can be lowered even more, widening the string placement too close to the edge of the fretboard, and such), but that's another story. On the other hand, unlike some Zager owners who have conceded that some of Denny's marketing is unethical, you've conceded nothing to my recollection (this thread has taken on a life of its own). All you've done is tossed emotive-laden and unsubstantiated charges. One time, you say that a $4000 Taylor costs only $500 to build and then you say it costs $2000 to build. You bash Taylor and those who question Zager. Will you answer my question about the use of the AGM quote by Zager as deception. Zager uses it in his magazine reviews page, but AGM says nothing about Zager, just the importance of a good setup. If you're unwilling to concede this, then I'll not waste my time with you. Bill

 

 

Bill you're not looking at the big picture but merely small technicalities on Zagers website. I just went to that page on their website and he's got a little bit of everything on that page. He has links to Ebay and his Ebay feedback rating (which happens to be perfect), links to other websites that review guitars including this one as well that brief article on having a properly set up instrument. I see absolutely nothing wrong with informing a customer that it's important to have a properly set up guitar...especially if it's coming from someone as well known as Acoustic Guitar Magazine. I would blame this one more on his webmaster for not organizing thier website better but in my opinion this is not disceptive or misleading in any way.

[Bitt81]

And while we're at it lets talk resale values. I went out and tried to find a used Zager on Ebay before buying mine brand new and I only found one. (which should tell you alot) The guy who was selling it wanted the same price he paid for it telling me that every year prices rise on Zagers (as Denny has a tough time keeping up with customer demand) and since this was Denny's last year working on guitars prices are probably going to be rising significantly.

 

Now you are being rediculous. You are trying to tell us that a mass produced asian manufactured imported guitar that has had a set up done on it (by Denny Zager's magic hands and methods) is actually an investment that will increase in value? You base this on information from an Ebay seller trying to sell his personal guitar ( and obviously just trying to recoup his money).

 

My god, you have a collector's item! Hold on to that Zager and the polaroids because in 25 years when it is considered vintage, there's no telling what the value of that guitar will be.

 

By the way, lets see a pic of the Zager, Taylor, and Martin you own side by side. It would answer some of the questions I have about the veracity of your posts.

[Gary Palmer]

Gary, if I were you I would pop along to the Cumberland Arms and have a few pints of one of their excellent beers. It'll be more enjoyable than talking to Charlotte, I assure you.

 

 

Which one? And who's to say I'm not there already

[Broadus]

 

Bill you're not looking at the big picture but merely small technicalities on Zagers website. I just went to that page on their website and he's got a little bit of everything on that page. He has links to Ebay and his Ebay feedback rating (which happens to be perfect), links to other websites that review guitars including this one as well that brief article on having a properly set up instrument. I see absolutely nothing wrong with informing a customer that it's important to have a properly set up guitar...especially if it's coming from someone as well known as Acoustic Guitar Magazine. I would blame this one more on his webmaster for not organizing thier website better but in my opinion this is not disceptive or misleading in any way.

 

 

I think we almost agree on something, Charlotte. I agree that it should be on a separate page. Whoever did it placed it there to appear as though it were a review from AGM, which it clearly is not.

 

BTW, I just think we disagree on the big picture. I point out these things as evidences, or a pattern, of marketing which I don't think is above board. I'm not bashing Zager owners or the guitars. If someone asks about a Zager, I just want them to realize they're buying a solid top, lam back/sides guitar and are paying as much for the setup and customer service as anything. If they still want to go with Zager, fine, that's their decision. I'm not going to charge them with imbecility. IMO, I think they can do as well for less money.

 

Best,

Bill

[Charlotte941]

Now you are being rediculous. You are trying to tell us that a mass produced asian manufactured imported guitar that has had a set up done on it (by Denny Zager's magic hands and methods) is actually an investment that will increase in value? You base this on information from an Ebay seller trying to sell his personal guitar ( and obviously just trying to recoup his money). My god, you have a collector's item! Hold on to that Zager and the polaroids because in 25 years when it is considered vintage, there's no telling what the value of that guitar will be. By the way, lets see a pic of the Zager, Taylor, and Martin you own side by side. It would answer some of the questions I have about the veracity of your posts.

 

 

These are not mass produced guitars, if they were why can I only find a handful of them on Ebay every time I search for them and the price is typically at or above what the seller paid for it? See for yourself:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=zager+acoustic+guitar&category0=

[Gary Palmer]

Hi Bill,

 

The use of the AGM segment is deceptive in the sense that it could be misconstrued as being about Zager and not the general topic of the importance of set-ups, but IMHO it does highlight and emphasise the fact that a well set-up guitar will tend to speed a learner's progress far more than an untouched instrument.

 

It's certainly poorly placed in the sense of organising web pages and is among a number of things that need addressing. For example a movement away from vagueness and more focus on solid facts.

 

..............

 

 

Garthman,

 

Mine'sh a pint of vodka and Bill's having the usual!

 

.............

[bsman]

 

These are not mass produced guitars, if they were why can I only find a handful of them on Ebay every time I search for them and the price is typically at or above what the seller paid for it? See for yourself: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=zager+acoustic+guitar&category0=

 

 

Now you're just being ridiculous! I just did a search on completed sales of Zagers and the following four transactions came up:

 

Model----New Price----Sold For

 

ZAD80----$745----$560

ZAD15----$495----$230

ZAD50----$495----$406

ZAD50CE----$595----$400

[Gary Palmer]

 

These are not mass produced guitars, if they were why can I only find a handful of them on Ebay every time I search for them and the price is typically at or above what the seller paid for it? See for yourself: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=zager+acoustic+guitar&category0=

 

 

These are just as likely to be mass produced as bespoke, but one relevant factor is that it's basically a one man show and there's a limit to how many guitars can be worked upon at any one time. Even in batches.

 

If they weren't mass / batch produced IMHO there'd be an emphasis upon the handmade aspect instead of improved.

[Freeman Keller]

Denny Zager, "master luthier" at work on one of his guitars (actual picture from his website)

 

[Charlotte941]

 

Now you're just being ridiculous! I just did a search on completed sales of Zagers and the following four transactions came up: Model----New Price----Sold For ZAD80----$745----$560 ZAD15----$495----$230 ZAD50----$495----$406 ZAD50CE----$595----$400

 

 

Except you forgot one thing...Denny's prices have been going up every year. I know for a fact that his ZAD50 sold for $395 and his ZAD80 sold for $595 as you can find this on old Harmony Reviews. So the owner who bought a guitar and used it for 5 years sold it for the same amount (or more) then he bought it for 5 years ago? Try that with your $3000 Gibson.

[Freeman Keller]

Charlotte941, I've just spent the last half hour at the US Patent Office website looking for Denny's patent. I can't put together a search criteria that gets any hits - "Zager", "String Science", and all the booleans don't work and he doesn't list the patent number on his site. Would you mind looking at the label in yours and telling me what it is - as a part time builder I would like to learn what he has patented.

 

I've also suggested that someone actually measure a Zager'ed guitar and tell us what the setup specs are (nut action, relief, saddle action), what his fret dimensions are, photos of (or better yet, measurements of) his bracing and saddle mods - I have offered to make these measurements and post them on the forum (and compare with the specs from Martin and some setup techs who are respected in the industry). Unfortunately I'm way the heck out in the woods, but if there is anyone in the Seattle to Portland area with a Zager who would let me measure it, I would love to.

 

Are you willing to measure your guitar and provide that information? Can you take some pictures in the soundhole of the bracing?

[Bitt81]

 

These are not mass produced guitars, if they were why can I only find a handful of them on Ebay every time I search for them and the price is typically at or above what the seller paid for it? See for yourself: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=zager+acoustic+guitar&category0=

 

 

So now you are telling me that these asian imports are hand made? And...you do not refute my statement about them being actual investments that don't depreciate in time? The web site claim that his Zager brand is manufactured at the same place as the Martin Sigma guitars. This is a factory that mass produces guitars in asia. Based off of the ebay information, I checked on Carvin Cobalts (I own a Carvin Cobalt acoustic). At this time, there is not a single Carvin Cobalt acoustic listed...I must really have a collector's item. I can't wait to cash in on the appreciation in value of this instrument.

 

There are currently 3 Zagers listed in the link you provided for sale by individuals. The rest are Ebay sales directly from Zager...new guitars.

 

Item 1: ZAD 50 retail from site $495 current bid $360 (9 hrs left on auction)

Item 2: Zad 50CE retail from site $595...no bids (1 day 6hrs left on auction)

Item 3: ZAD 80 retail from site $745 current bid $435 (2 days 7hrs left on auction)

 

Which one of these is at or above what the owner paid? Which one is increasing in value?

 

There are only a handful of guitars that actually appreciate value over time. Those generally are a handful of guitars that have names like Martin or Gibson on the headstock, have become true vintage instruments or are in that handful of true handmade boutique guitars. It isn't Zager...that is not to say that Zagers aren't decent, playable instruments.

[Bitt81]

 

Except you forgot one thing...Denny's prices have been going up every year. I know for a fact that his ZAD50 sold for $395 and his ZAD80 sold for $595 as you can find this on old Harmony Reviews. So the owner who bought a guitar and used it for 5 years sold it for the same amount (or more) then he bought it for 5 years ago? Try that with your $3000 Gibson.

 

 

Everyone's prices have gone up on everything. You don't think this is unique to Zager. Material and labor prices go up and that gets transferred to to the consumer. For someone in the wholesale business, it seems there are some principles you don't understand.

 

As you have seen from another post, completed ebay transactions refute your claim on selling for the same amount as they paid. In fact with inflation, if you sell for the same amount as you paid 5 years ago, in real dollars, you did lose money because you can no longer buy that same instrument today for the dollars you paid 5 years ago.

[Maximum]

I've also suggested that someone actually measure a Zager'ed guitar and tell us what the setup specs are (nut action, relief, saddle action), what his fret dimensions are, photos of (or better yet, measurements of) his bracing and saddle mods - I have offered to make these measurements and post them on the forum (and compare with the specs from Martin and some setup techs who are respected in the industry). Unfortunately I'm way the heck out in the woods, but if there is anyone in the Seattle to Portland area with a Zager who would let me measure it, I would love to. Are you willing to measure your guitar and provide that information? Can you take some pictures in the soundhole of the bracing?

 

My ZAGER just arrived!!!! And YEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA! :rawk::rawk:It's the AWESOMEST musical instrument in the HISTORY of MANKIND!!!!!! It kicks A** on my STRADIVARIUS, which I just tossed in the garbage 'cause why bother with that OLD thing!!

 

OK, just kidding. It did arrive but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I will measure & photograph it this weekend, and try to post the photos.

[Broadus]

 

Except you forgot one thing...Denny's prices have been going up every year. I know for a fact that his ZAD50 sold for $395 and his ZAD80 sold for $595 as you can find this on old Harmony Reviews. So the owner who bought a guitar and used it for 5 years sold it for the same amount (or more) then he bought it for 5 years ago? Try that with your $3000 Gibson.

 

 

I don't know, Charlotte. This recently completed sale was for a git that was only a year old in excellent condition. Its new price (on sale) is $495; it brought $330 on eBay.

 

This one had only five hours of play and sold for $400. New, its sales price is $595.

 

It's hard for any guitar to hold its price, though some do so better than others.

 

Best,

Bill

[Broadus]

My ZAGER just arrived!!!! And YEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA! :rawk::rawk:It's the AWESOMEST musical instrument in the HISTORY of MANKIND!!!!!! It kicks A** on my STRADIVARIUS, which I just tossed in the garbage 'cause why bother with that OLD thing!! OK, just kidding. It did arrive but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I will measure & photograph it this weekend, and try to post the photos.

 

Max,

 

You're too much. :poke: Congrats on getting it in. Looking forward to your report.

 

Best,

Bill

[riffmeister]

Freeman, there are two applications from 2005, neither of which has issued:

 

United States Patent Application 20050268769

Kind Code A1

Zager, Dennis SR. December 8, 2005

Abstract

A guitar is presented which may include a nut having a first edge slot for receiving a first edge string, the first slot having a center point being positioned away from a first edge of the nut a first distance no less than about {fraction (3/32)}", a saddle positioned in a bridge including a first portion having a height of greater than or equal to about {fraction (7/16)}" as measured from the guitar top and a neck positioned at an angle greater than about 180 degrees from the guitar top.

 

 

United States Patent Application 20050087056

Kind Code A1

Zager, Dennis JR. ; et al. April 28, 2005

Abstract

A musical instrument string spacing device is provided and may include a first member for interaction with one or more strings positioned on a top surface of a neck of a musical instrument. The first member may include a plurality of sides, where each side may include a plurality of recesses arranged in a respective predetermined spaced apart relationship, and where each recess may be used for receiving a respective string of the musical instrument. Each of the sides of the first member may be positioned to interact with one or more strings of the musical instrument. The string spacing device may also include a second member in a compressive arrangement with the first member, where the second member engages a lower surface of the neck of the musical instrument.

[Freeman Keller]

My ZAGER just arrived!!!! And YEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA! :rawk::rawk:It's the AWESOMEST musical instrument in the HISTORY of MANKIND!!!!!! It kicks A** on my STRADIVARIUS, which I just tossed in the garbage 'cause why bother with that OLD thing!! OK, just kidding. It did arrive but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I will measure & photograph it this weekend, and try to post the photos.

 

Did you ever get a hold of Knockwood? He could sure help with this.

 

What I would like, if possible, is the first fret clearance to each string measured with feeler gauges, the relief at 6 (ditto), and the action height at 12 (to the closest 64th or stack feeler gauges). If possible lay a straightedge on two frets and measure the distance to the fretboard (fret width would be nice too, but that requires digital calipers which I don't expect you to have).

 

Play each string up the neck listening for any next fret and back fret buzzing - if so, which ones? Check the intonation (play each string 12th fret harmonic and fretted, is the fretted note significantly sharper?. Give your general observations of workmanship - is the nut and saddle smooth and polished, ditto with the frets.

 

I'm also quite interested in what he does inside - a stock Martin DM is 5/16 unscalloped A frame bracing, do you see evidence that the braces were scalloped or sanded thinner? Was it done neatly (nice curves to the scallops)? Ideally I'd like to know what the height of the braces is at the low point, ie. how much have they been scalloped?

 

Here is a picture of Martin's stock A frame bracing - note that these braces are tapered but not scalloped. What do yours look like?

 

 

I'd like to also throw that challenge to any other Zager owners.

 

I'm trying to avoid getting in this pissing match (my old Daddy said you'll just get wet and sticky) and to understand what Mr Zager is really selling. We've pretty much determined that he is not selling a Martin DM as his webpage states (Martin's list for them is $1199, a dealers price would be about $550, Denny's is $495). As I said above, I spent a half hour trying to find out what his patented "string science" is all about and couldn't (but that could just be my search criteria).

 

But as a builder, if Denny has some inovative ideas (and I can avoid violating his patent) I would like to consider using them in my guitars.

 

edit to add, I just see Riff's posting of the patents. I'll try to comment in a separate pane.

[Maximum]

 

Did you ever get a hold of Knockwood? He could sure help with this. What I would like, if possible, is the first fret clearance to each string measured with feeler gauges, the relief at 6 (ditto), and the action height at 12 (to the closest 64th or stack feeler gauges). If possible lay a straightedge on two frets and measure the distance to the fretboard (fret width would be nice too, but that requires digital calipers which I don't expect you to have). Play each string up the neck listening for any next fret and back fret buzzing - if so, which ones? Check the intonation (play each string 12th fret harmonic and fretted, is the fretted note significantly sharper?. Give your general observations of workmanship - is the nut and saddle smooth and polished, ditto with the frets. I'm also quite interested in what he does inside - a stock Martin DM is 5/16 unscalloped A frame bracing, do you see evidence that the braces were scalloped or sanded thinner? Was it done neatly (nice curves to the scallops)? Ideally I'd like to know what the height of the braces is at the low point, ie. how much have they been scalloped? Here is a picture of Martin's stock A frame bracing - note that these braces are tapered but not scalloped . What do yours look like? http://bryankimsey.com/braces/D-1_top.jpg I'd like to also throw that challenge to any other Zager owners. I'm trying to avoid getting in this pissing match (my old Daddy said you'll just get wet and sticky) and to understand what Mr Zager is really selling. We've pretty much determined that he is not selling a Martin DM as his webpage states (Martin's list for them is $1199, a dealers price would be about $550, Denny's is $495). As I said above, I spent a half hour trying to find out what his patented "string science" is all about and couldn't (but that could just be my search criteria). But as a builder, if Denny has some inovative ideas (and I can avoid violating his patent) I would like to consider using them in my guitars. edit to add, I just see Riff's posting of the patents. I'll try to comment in a separate pane.

 

 

 

One thing I did notice is that there are notches cut out or beveled into the saddle, whereas on my other guitars the saddle is smooth. Is this unusual?