Members Hudman Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Max, I still want to hear your take on the Zager. It would be great if you could take it to a store and compare it to particular, less expensive models that perhaps Hud could suggest (not brands, but models, and Hud, if you've already suggested models or someone else has, my apologies--it's late and my mind in locked in a perpetual senior moment). But really, it does all come down to Zager's marketing for me. I have a huge problem with it, like the sites that claim they have the secret to consistently hit 375-yard drives with their patented, super-secret golf swing, and it can be yours for $89, money back guarantee. And my swing's so rottenly inconsistent, it's been tempting to bite. With so many good offerings in the way of guitars, I'm really not interested in Zager. Now, if you want to talk about a Godin-family acoustic, that's another thing. This it not to denigrate any buyer; it's just where I am personally. I'm still interested in honest reviews, whether I agree with the result or not. Oh, and guys (and gals?) who play Zagers--stick around. There's lots more about acoustics to discuss than the particular gits we play. Hope everyone has a good night. Gotta get some sleep. Best, Bill Bill my opinions are not based on Zager quality. Harmonycat gave a very insightful account on where Zager and Sigma guitars are/were built. I am positive Zager guitars would compare well with other Indonesian made guitars featuring the same materials (solid spruce top / laminate sides and back). My problem is with his misleading sales tactics. I don't like dishonest people. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 I'll make you a deal, I won't respond to you if you won't respond to any future Zager posts. I left you and your Zager trolling posts alone for more than a week. YOU mentioned my name several times in your your Zager rants. You also made inaccurate statements about me in those posts. You need to stop being a hypocrite. You want to argue with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Bill my opinions are not based on Zager quality. Harmonycat gave a very insightful account on where Zager and Sigma guitars are/were built. I am positive Zager guitars would compare well with other Indonesian made guitars featuring the same materials (solid spruce top / laminate sides and back). My problem is with his misleading sales tactics. I don't like dishonest people. It's really that simple. Hud, I just had to check my email. :poke: I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is that if Zagers are substantially marked up because of the setup, I wonder how they would compare to similarly-configured (woods/solid or lam, etc.) gits which cost perhaps $150-$200 less. Or is that not pertinent to the discussion? Bill Edit: BTW, I agree completely about the misleading. It's like my analogy about the golf sites. I guess in a nutshell, TC and Max, the reproach folks have for Zager is his marketing. Posts get personal because it does go to the heart of what is ethical. I have nothing against you guys personally, so long as you don't defend his marketing, and I don't think you do (seems like I read you have the same concerns). It's a shame because Zager could very well find a niche market without some of his claims. If he just let his guitars do the talking instead of sounding like a 2 a.m. infomercial, perhaps his gits would be more widely respected. Of course, he may find his sales numbers decreasing, also. And now, I really am going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FunkaGuitar Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 the fact that no retail store (or at least barely?) carry Zager would be a big enough excuse for anyone not to buy. Forget individual's opinions and research; corporations and firms do research in what they want to carry; if Zagers not on many shelfs, i think it speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hud,I just had to check my email. :poke:I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is that if Zagers are substantially marked up because of the setup, I wonder how they would compare to similarly-configured (woods/solid or lam, etc.) gits which cost perhaps $150-$200 less. Or is that not pertinent to the discussion?Bill The ZAD 80 runs $790 with shipping. It has a solid cedar top and laminate rosewood sides and back. It ships without a case. The ZAD 50 runs $540 with shipping. It has a solid spruce top and laminate mahogany sides and back. For the price of the ZAD 80 with a case ($790 + $75) you could buy a solid wood Martin or Larrivee and get a FREE set up from most decent guitar dealers (cases are included). For the price of a ZAD 50 with a case ($540 + $75) you could buy a solid wood Epiphone Masterbilt, Blueridge or Guild GAD Series with a FREE set up from most decent guitar dealers. According to Harmonycat, Zager / Sigma guitars are almost identical to Washburn guitars. In fact they are made in the same factory. Compare the price of solid top Washburn guitars to the price of the ZAD 80 and ZAD 50. I don't think a generic low action set up is worth the extra cost. I also think it's a terrible idea, because people should have their guitars set up for their playing style. I like Washburn guitars. I previously owned 2 different Washburns (an all solid wood [spruce / rosewood] Flint Hills dread and a Cumberland jumbo with a solid spruce top and lam. maple sides and back) and I just ordered a Washburn classical guitar (solid cedar top with laminate rosewood sides and back). I'm not a brand snob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DEP Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 For the price of the ZAD 80 with a case ($790 + $75) you could buy a solid wood Martin or Larrivee and get a FREE set up from most decent guitar dealers (cases are included). For the price of a ZAD 50 with a case ($540 + $75) you could buy a solid wood Epiphone Masterbilt, Blueridge or Guild GAD Series with a FREE set up from most decent guitar dealers. And for me at least, that's the crux of this discussion and the point that every potential Zager owner should be aware of. I picked out my GAD 30R at a reputable dealers shop, it's all solid woods, including wood binding (no plastics at all on the entire guitar) bone nut and saddle, dovetail neck join, includes an excellent hardshell case in the price, and best of all his technician set it up exactly for my playing style FOR FREE. and it plays like a dream. Why trade that for the Zager unknown, and really what amounts to a lesser guitar? Is it the promise of ease of playing? Sorry, I didn't meant to step in on this thread, but I really don't get the whole Zager allure. I think in the long run the frets taken down close to zero will be regrettable for a number of different reasons, including your development as a player, but not least of all that at some point that guitar will become unplayable and need real frets on it. Doesn't it occur to anyone that if this were such a good idea, other manufacturer's would have come out with their own versions by now? And scalloped braces? Please, they've been around for a long, long time. There's nothing new there. To me, all this amounts to is that Zager is a flim-flam man, nothing more. I'm sorry if anyone is insulted by being told that they've been had, but the truth is not always pretty. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hear it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AugTPD Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Well this Zager thing just doesn't seem to want to go away. I'll echo the statements of many here that the problem seems to be the extremely deceptive sales tactics of Denny Zager including the potentially illegal marketing of Sigma guitars as Martin guitars. Pursuant to this observation I sent the following Email to Martin guitars hoping that they would seek legal action against Zager for his sales tactics. "To whom it may concern, I am not sure if I am sending this to the right email address. I personally do not own a Martin guitar but I have played probably hundreds of them in my life and find them to be of the highest quality. I currently participate in the Harmony Central acoustic guitar forum and recently the topic of Zager guitars has been often discussed. I am not sure if Martin is aware of the sales tactics that Denny Zager is using in selling discontinued Sigma guitars. His website lists the Sigma DM as the "Martin DM" in several places. He also shows close up photos of all his Zager branded guitar headstocks but does not show a close up of the Sigma headstock to show that it is in fact not a Martin. I feel these sales tactics are extremely deceptive and potentially illegal. I would find it very unfortunate for an individual to pay $500 to $600 for what they thought was a genuine Martin guitar only to receive a Sigma that could be purchased for several hundred dollars less from any other dealer. I also feel that these deceptive sales tactics may have a negative affect on your company's stellar reputation that has been built over more than 100 years of building quality instruments. If your company is interested these issues can be seen at www.zagerguitar.com" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Good thinking, Aug. No doubt their response will be very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bitt81 Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 the fact that no retail store (or at least barely?) carry Zager would be a big enough excuse for anyone not to buy. Forget individual's opinions and research; corporations and firms do research in what they want to carry; if Zagers not on many shelfs, i think it speaks for itself. FWIW, you also don't find Carvin Cobalts in retail store...other than their own in California. It really is the marketing and set up issues that create the problem here with Zager. There are no shady marketing issues or set up charges with Cobalts (manufactured overseas to Carvin specs and set up here in the US) and Carvin has a 60 year history as a manufacturer of a wide variety of guitars, amps, and related equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Flint Hills dread and a Cumberland jumbo with a solid spruce top and lam. maple sides and back) and I just ordered a Washburn classical guitar (solid cedar top with laminate rosewood sides and back). I'm not a brand snob. I had a 120th anniversary Flint Hills all solid wood WD52SW....The ZAD-80?....Think Flinthills with Cedar Top and a 3-pc. laminated back, instead of solid back and sides. It was not a great guitar, OK not great...I sold it. I have owned 5 Washburns and currently have three. One is my 3/4 Travel Guitar. Those Samick Factory Washburns were OK, but were fraught with Quality issues. I own a lesser Washburn built there. The WD32SW is solid Spruce over Solid Sapele. The production of those before being discontinued ran for at least 7 years. They switched the production to China in 2005-2006. I have a 2004 built with the same "SI" serial number markings as all the Zagers, in the same script. All solid wood that sold for $389.00, at MF or others shops including a great gig bag. Mine flat out embarasses Sigma Solid tops....That is why I sold both of them. I bought mine with the gig bag as a blem for $165.00 shipped. They are built solid....and make great Beaters! I even bought my non-Zager laminate top Sigma DM used for $90.00,with a hard shell case. That is about what they are worth to me.:poke: The WD32SW is not even in the same League as my Aria AD-80 or Washburn Timbercraft D-52SW both built in the now famous Grand Rewards Factory in China. Or any other Brand built there, for that matter! And they, as good as they are...are NOT Larrivees! I like some Washburns, but I am not parading around here like some religious Zealot trying to justify my purchases and convert everyone. I bought both of the WD32SW and D52SW Washburns new, for less than a single ZAD-50 shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Last weekend I went to the convenience store and asked for bus/metro tickets. The guy gave me the tickets but when I showed him my debit card he said that the Interac system wasn't working. I asked him if the system would work better if i'd buy another item... He answered me stupidly: "Yes!". I gave him his tickets back and left the store... He was lying. The system was working perfectly but he didn't want me to use my debit card because he didn't want to pay the fees for using it. If he had been honest I would have told him to just add the fees (0.25$ - 0.50$) to the total. Instead, I left and I don't want to go back there anymore... It was just a pack of 6 tickets --> 12$. Imagine how I would feel for 400$ - 600$??? The point here is deception! Same thing with D. Zager. Why would I give my money to someone who isn't honest? We just want to warn people about that fact! That's it, that's all! We just tell people that they could spend their money somewhere else with more confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 I appreciate the points made, discussing comparative guitars and specs and ethics. I just revisited Zager's site and saw that the ZAD-80 has a solid cedar top and laminated rosewood back and sides. For some reason, I had been under the impression that its b/s were also solid. The price alone for a solid top/lam back and sides guitars would be enough to turn me away. Buyer beware is the operative term in today's internet world. You cannot research too much. Instead of bottles of elixir sold by a horse-drawn wagon, we find numberless sites selling more than my mind can imagine that's going to make things better and easier for the consumer. Best,Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 I appreciate the points made, discussing comparative guitars and specs and ethics. I just revisited Zager's site and saw that the ZAD-80 has a solid cedar top and laminated rosewood back and sides. For some reason, I had been under the impression that its b/s were also solid. The price alone for a solid top/lam back and sides guitars would be enough to turn me away. Buyer beware is the operative term in today's internet world. You cannot research too much. Instead of bottles of elixir sold by a horse-drawn wagon, we find numberless sites selling more than my mind can imagine that's going to make things better and easier for the consumer. Best, Bill Amen Bill. Snake Oil Salesmen everywhere!:poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 So why aren't there any Zager owners consistantly or occasionally contributing to this forum? ....... Probably because they are either embarrassed for being taken in by a huckster, or they were truly Zager shills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 I am going to leave the price of a set up work comment alone, But the review comment I think we both would agree that you can't trust all reviews, other wise the Zager reviews would count for something, especially when you read and see so many positive comments at multiple sites. They all can't be shills, or lies. To again, it has nothing to do with the guitars themselves. It has to do with deception in selling those guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 While my offer remains open, I think I am going to otherwise quietly withdraw. Don't. You have every right to post here, and I am curious to hear about your findings. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 Don't. You have every right to post here, and I am curious to hear about your findings. . I agree 100%. I hope he loves his new guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 5, 2008 Members Share Posted March 5, 2008 I agree 100%. I hope he loves his new guitar. I actually do as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members babablowfish Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 Jeez Baba, I'm surprised you hav'nt reported me to the mods yet. Cry baby. If you had something informative to add to the forum, or even something interesting to say, it would'nt be so bad. However, you never do.Your beloved HCAG is the amicable place it is due to me. Period. Now, you all just sit around and enjoy the nice atmospher while the wolves come in and make themselves at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 I stand by my comment Baba quoted. Zager owners do believe in magic if they think "String Science" and "EZ Play" are new concepts. It's easy to sit back and judge, especially when you chose to ignore the rude behavior of the Zager posters and blame it on everyone else here. It takes two to tango. The Zager posters are not innocent victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members corduroyhorn Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 istand by my quote too baba... but you have pulled them quotes outta of context.... most of them have come out after folk here giving helpful advice then the thread going haywire due to a number of issues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members corduroyhorn Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 i could sit here and quote from the zager posts and explain how other quotes came up and why certain people dont seem to understand simple logic, but i aint got the time...As most of have said... if you like your equipment and others dont who cares...life is too short.... Lets talk about being better guitar players and have a big jam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members C70man Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 This is my first and last post about Zagers. I think Zager owners should have their own site. (if they don't already) Hey, if I owned one, where would be a better place to find out how bad or good they are? OR... at least their own designated thread. Pictures, sound clips, the whole deal. That way, the rest of us who really don't care, can avoid the temptation of contributing comments about them. Besides, its really not fair that guitar players judge an instrument that can play songs all by themselves. They do, don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DEP Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 I stand by my comment Baba quoted.Zager owners do believe in magic if they think "String Science" and "EZ Play" are new concepts.It's easy to sit back and judge, especially when you chose to ignore the rude behavior of the Zager posters and blame it on everyone else here.It takes two to tango.The Zager posters are not innocent victims. Hudman, I haven't read many of the Zager threads, but I have read most of this one. Seems to me that Maximum at least has not been rude or anything else other than looking for answers. FWIW, I generally agree with the position you've taken, and I'm not saying that there aren't Zager acolytes, just that perhaps not everyone deserves to be painted with the same brush. Just my $.02, take it for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members corduroyhorn Posted March 6, 2008 Members Share Posted March 6, 2008 i dont think the quotes listed were aimed at maximum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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