Members Maximum Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 I recognize that picking this topic as my first post might be foolhardy, but I am in an unusual position to make an unbiased, possibly helpful, offer/proposal/request, and my timing pretty much requires that I jump in right now. First, my story: I have a late 1980's Goya/Martin (made in Korea), and a 10-year old La Patrie Etude. I have been playing for years, though I appear to be permanently stuck in that intermediate skill level where talentless non-dilligent folks like myself seem to plateau. Anyhow, I wanted to upgrade my steel string, and started looking around, testing some guitars in shops, etc. I am a newbie to this site. And though I have been playing for a while, I am certainly a newbie when it comes to assessing guitars - materials, quality, value. Late Thursday night, with my fingers in pain from pushing on my steel strings, I looked around on the internet and stumbled across a Zager on ebay. I had never heard of Zagers, but intrigued by the easy-play, no-pain notion, I read Zager's site (in detail), and read consumer reviews on this site as well as on some others. Almost all the Zager owners seemed thrilled. I read some reviews that verified that his money-back guaranty really is honored. Feeling like I had done my diligence, I ordered one (not the modified Martin, a Zager-branded Zager, which is supposedly better). Yes, I bought into the hype. Friday, I looked into this discussion forum and, for the first time, saw a Zager thread. Wow. . . . You guys just about had me in tears. I had not been a member, and had not previously searched within the threads, just the reviews. Never had really occurred to me to look within the discussions, as I was not a regular reader. My guitar is currently in transit to me. I am not capable of having formed a bias yet, since I am both (a) a Zager owner, and (b) someone who has never played a Zager. I understand both sides of the argument, and don't need them rehashed. Both sides of this argument are plausible to me. So . . . instead of taking up a collection to buy a Zager and review it, as I see has been suggested, I have the following idea/offer/request: Does any one of the known, respected, knowledgeable, anti-Zager, yet not-having-personally (or recently) inspected-one, members of this forum live in Brooklyn? I would be happy to bring over my brand new Zager, when I get it, for a review that would benefit both the HCAG community and me, by determining whether it was worth the $1600 I spent on it -- or whether I should put that money-back guaranty to the test. (Just kidding about the price: $495 + case + shipping came to 665). Let me know. I expect to have it in the next couple of days. (Parts of Manhattan & Queens would work too, depending on how hard they are for me to get to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 I recognize that picking this topic as my first post might be foolhardy, but I am in an unusual position to make an unbiased, possibly helpful, offer/proposal/request, and my timing pretty much requires that I jump in right now.First, my story: I have a late 1980's Goya/Martin (made in Korea), and a 10-year old La Patrie Etude. I have been playing for years, though I appear to be permanently stuck in that intermediate skill level where talentless non-dilligent folks like myself seem to plateau. Anyhow, I wanted to upgrade my steel string, and started looking around, testing some guitars in shops, etc.I am a newbie to this site. And though I have been playing for a while, I am certainly a newbie when it comes to assessing guitars - materials, quality, value. Late Thursday night, with my fingers in pain from pushing on my steel strings, I looked around on the internet and stumbled across a Zager on ebay.I had never heard of Zagers, but intrigued by the easy-play, no-pain notion, I read Zager's site (in detail), and read consumer reviews on this site as well as on some others. Almost all the Zager owners seemed thrilled. I read some reviews that verified that his money-back guaranty really is honored. Feeling like I had done my diligence, I ordered one (not the modified Martin, a Zager-branded Zager, which is supposedly better). Yes, I bought into the hype.Friday, I looked into this discussion forum and, for the first time, saw a Zager thread. Wow. . . . You guys just about had me in tears.I had not been a member, and had not previously searched within the threads, just the reviews. Never had really occurred to me to look within the discussions, as I was not a regular reader.My guitar is currently in transit to me. I am not capable of having formed a bias yet, since I am both (a) a Zager owner, and (b) someone who has never played a Zager. I understand both sides of the argument, and don't need them rehashed. Both sides of this argument are plausible to me.So . . . instead of taking up a collection to buy a Zager and review it, as I see has been suggested, I have the following idea/offer/request: Does any one of the known, respected, knowledgeable, anti-Zager, yet not-having-personally (or recently) inspected-one, members of this forum live in Brooklyn? I would be happy to bring over my brand new Zager, when I get it, for a review that would benefit both the HCAG community and me, by determining whether it was worth the $1600 I spent on it -- or whether I should put that money-back guaranty to the test. (Just kidding about the price: $495 + case + shipping came to 665). Let me know. I expect to have it in the next couple of days.(Parts of Manhattan & Queens would work too, depending on how hard they are for me to get to). I am going to be respectful and keep my mouth shut and sit back and just watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BROLEX Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 why do zager fanboys write very long posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Me too, but I also want to welcome Maximum to the group. Max, you might also want to post one more thread "Attention, Forumites in the Booklyn area... " or something similar because there are a few folks who are turned off by all the Zager-stuff. As a part time builder and dedicated guitar setup geek I would be very interested in someone accurately measuring Zager's setup - if possilbe mic the frets (height and width), measure the nut, relief and action as it arrives, as well as judging the playability. I would also be interested in the relative quality of his work (are the frets smooth and polished, saddle nicely compensated, nut and saddle buffed, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Maximum Posted March 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Me too, but I also want to welcome Maximum to the group. Max, you might also want to post one more thread "Attention, Forumites in the Booklyn area... " or something similar because there are a few folks who are turned off by all the Zager-stuff. As a part time builder and dedicated guitar setup geek I would be very interested in someone accurately measuring Zager's setup - if possilbe mic the frets (height and width), measure the nut, relief and action as it arrives, as well as judging the playability. I would also be interested in the relative quality of his work (are the frets smooth and polished, saddle nicely compensated, nut and saddle buffed, etc). Thanks Freeman -- I think I will do that. And those issues, along with the basic construction of the guitar itself (i.e., is it genuinely different from a Sigma) are exactly the kind of thing I am 100% unqualified to determine for myself. As for Chuck -- that was just mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Welcome to the forum. Most of the so called "anti-Zager" crowd never said a single bad thing about Zager guitars or Zagerized Sigma guitars. Most have an issue with him charging too much money for a set up and his shady sales tactics. Zager owners try their best to turn the debate into a quality issue and they insist on falsely accusing people with slamming Zager quality. Do yourself a favor and have your old guitars set up by a qualified tech. I assure you that they will be much easier to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Maximum Posted March 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Welcome to the forum.Most of the so called "anti-Zager" crowd never said a single bad thing about Zager guitars or Zagerized Sigma guitars.Most have an issue with him charging too much money for a set up and his shady sales tactics. Zager owners try their best to turn the debate into a quality issue and they insist on falsely accusing people with slamming Zager quality.Do yourself a favor and have your old guitars set up by a qualified tech. I assure you that they will be much easier to play. Hudman:Thank you. Actually, I did already gather that the marketing/price was the main issue. However, I also saw criticisms of the way he filed the frets and (I think) of at least one other specific thing he did that might do long-term damage to the guitar (maybe weakening the braces, but I'm not sure). If I had not already ordered it, at this point I probably would just not order one. But it's on its way, so I figure why not try it out -- and when I saw the thread collecting donations to buy one to review (which I know was a joke -- I think), it occurred to me that maybe I could help kill a couple of birds with one stone, and I could come away feeling a bit less like an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hudman:Thank you. Actually, I did already gather that the marketing/price was the main issue. However, I also saw criticisms of the way he filed the frets and (I think) of at least one other specific thing he did that might do long-term damage to the guitar (maybe weakening the braces, but I'm not sure).If I had not already ordered it, at this point I probably would just not order one. But it's on its way, so I figure why not try it out -- and when I saw the thread collecting donations to buy one to review (which I know was a joke -- I think), it occurred to me that maybe I could help kill a couple of birds with one stone, and I could come away feeling a bit less like an idiot. No problem. Just be warned that the Zager topic became a hot item recently. It seems to pop up every few months. It usually happens when a rash of new posters claim to be considering purchasing a Zager. It also doesn't help that Zager owners act like you are insulting their mother when you say anything negative about Mr. Zager and his methods. Enjoy your new guitar. I hope you stick around. We have a nice group of people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BROLEX Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Thanks Freeman -- I think I will do that. And those issues, along with the basic construction of the guitar itself (i.e., is it genuinely different from a Sigma) are exactly the kind of thing I am 100% unqualified to determine for myself. As for Chuck -- that was just mean. im just saying it like it is. i read your post but keep it short, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Maximum Posted March 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 im just saying it like it is. i read your post but keep it short, please? "fanboy" is not "just saying it like it is." But thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members panhandler Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 Welcome to the forum Max! Sorry but I dont know nuttin bout Zager. Never played or seen one up close. So I cant help and wont hurt. WELCOME!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BROLEX Posted March 3, 2008 Members Share Posted March 3, 2008 "fanboy" is not "just saying it like it is." But thanks for the advice. i did add a love smiley at the end as an olive branch... i know youre posting from Zager's office, but youre allowed to use smileys as well. FYI, the smiley denotes that im pulling your leg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 I also saw criticisms of the way he filed the frets and (I think) of at least one other specific thing he did that might do long-term damage to the guitar (maybe weakening the braces, but I'm not sure). Here's the deal on that and keep in mind Zager does not build his own guitars. They are made by an OEM manufacturer that could well be the same factory where the Sigma guitars are built. I'd bet it's Cort or Samick.It doesn't make sense to have a company purchase a guitar to their specs and have to do work on it.It is much cheaper to have low frets installed when the guitar is made rather than remove the strings file them down and dress them, then install new strings. The same holds true with the nut and wider spacing. It's cheaper to have that done where the nuts are made and installed when the guitar is built, not replaced after the fact. (They won't be simply modified or the original slots would be there, or they would show as a filled slot.)As to the last query about weakening braces...Here, get yourself a good light and a mirror and look inside the guitar. On the bottom side of the top you'll see braces in some sort of pattern running across the top to help stiffen it. Some guitar manufacturers scallop those braces to save weight and that is supposed to allow the top to work better as well. Now, consider how difficult is it going to be to precisely scallop those braces if there are no scallops? Keep in mind they must be precise or the difference in mass will have a detrimental effect on the way the top works. Now, if the braces are already scalloped, to a particular specification, would not additional scalloping be detrimental to the carefully designed scallop and it's effect on the way the top works? Would it not also weaken the strength of that carefully designed scallop as well?Now, again, would it not be more economically feasible for those braces to be scalloped and installed as the guitar is being built rather than after?Take into consideration also that to do interior scalloping work the strings would very likely need to be removed so that would and an additional cost of another set of strings.Simple Economics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Maximum Posted March 4, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 i did add a love smiley at the end as an olive branch... i know youre posting from Zager's office, but youre allowed to use smileys as well. FYI, the smiley denotes that im pulling your leg First, I feel like a chump for ordering the Z***r. Now I feel dumb for not noticing the smiley. This place is murder on the ego. Btw, I think "fanboy" has now entered my vocabulary. I hope it's not trademarked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Clif Schlicher Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Maximum: You are obviously a kind, generous and peaceful individual. Welcome to the forum. Clif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Welcome! I hope things work out with your soon-to-be new guitar! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Maximum: You are obviously a kind, generous and peaceful individual. Welcome to the forum. Clif I agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 I agree 100%. How am I doing? I 'm being respectful Trying to keep my mouth shut, watching, I think I might be bleeding from biting my lip a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 How am I doing? I 'm being respectful Trying to keep my mouth shut, watching, I think I might be bleeding from biting my lip a little. Hell TC. You're alright. I got some mecurichrome or tincture of iodine you can use to treat that lip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Clif, Welcome to the forum. As an older-than-many but relatively new to acoustics member myself, you'll find a lot of kind individuals who share their knowledge and understanding, generally with tact, but sometime with unvarnished bluntness. I'm looking forward to your assessment. If you return the Zager, you can get a lot of valuable insight here. TC, you're doing admirably well. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Hell TC. You're alright. I got some mecurichrome or tincture of iodine you can use to treat that lip. Thanks, the band aide keeps falling off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Kumbaya...come on...everybody...Kumbaya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Welcome aboard, Max! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members C70man Posted March 4, 2008 Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Where are the pictures?...we need pictures. Inside and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Maximum Posted March 4, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 4, 2008 Where are the pictures?...we need pictures. Inside and out. If you mean of the Zager, I have not received it yet. If you mean pictures of something else, then I'm not sure I want to know of what. How do you take pictures of the inside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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