Zager (yes, this post is different)

[Charlotte941]

Charlotte, First, welcome to HCAG. Second, a seller on eBay has a great feedback rating because he supplies what he says he is going to in a timely manner. A buyer generally responds within a day or two of his receiving the item purchased. Let's say a buyer accepts the promo of the EZ play setup and system. He is convinced this is the guitar he wants to buy, so he orders it. After all, it has a money-back guarantee both ways. It comes and it is easy to play. The strings can be set much lower to the fretboard because the frets have been filed down. Hardly any pressure at all has to be exerted on the strings by the fret hand. Strings on other guitars cannot be lowered that much because of fret buzz with standard frets. The guitar looks good and sounds good, so the buyer gives Zager a positive feedback. Zager returns the positive feedback. Everybody is happy. And, I have no doubt that Zager has excellent customer service. However, customer service is really what Zager is selling, IMO. At first, I didn't see that much of a problem with the guitars with the Zager name. I did have a problem with the way the Sigmas were marketed, but that's another issue. As I said, I didn't initially have a problem with the Zager-denominated guitars. For some reason, due to my increasing senility evidenced by perpetual senior moments, I thought the ZAD-80, Zager's top of the line guitar, was a solid cedar top and solid rosewood back and sides. Not too bad for $750, I thought, though a highly-regarded Epiphone Masterbilt DR-500R with a solid spruce top and solid rosewood back and sides sells for $700. Oops, I found out that the top of the line Zager was a solid cedar top and laminated back and sides selling for more than the all-solid Epi Masterbilt. There are simply no two ways about it. Zagers are over-priced because of the setup. I realize that folks buy over-priced items every day on eBay and give the seller positive feedback. I've had my eye on particular used guitars that bidders eventually bought for almost what I could order it new online. Positive feedbacks only indicate that the buyer was satisfied that he received what he ordered. It does not address the issue of paying too much. After all, Zager doesn't force anyone to buy his gits. Those who think they are too high don't buy them and are, consequently, not a part of the feedback numbers. Those who buy get what is promised and leave positive feedback. Another issue has come to mind, but I'll give it a separate post. Best, Bill

 

 

Overpriced? You're trying to tell me that Zager is overpriced? Go spend $3000+ on a new Martin D35. Go spend $4000+ on a new Taylor 9. Then go spend $800 on a Zager and tell me which guitar plays easiest and I'll even be so bold to ask you to compare sound quality. I've played all of these models extensively and I can tell you that Martin and Taylor should be nervous to have guitars like Zagers floating around. I think this is why many of you so called pros in this forum bash Zager any opportunity you get. I would feel a little upset too after spending 3 or 4 grand on an instrument that doesn't perform as well as a guitar at a fraction of the price. I think Zager is a saint compared to these big brands who think they own the market and rip off the general public just because they put their name on the headstock. You know as well as I do that Taylor builds that guitar for less then $500 and then has the audacity to sell it for $4000? If anyones a rip off artist it's Bob Taylor. It all boils down to playability and sound. If it plays like butter and makes the hair on your arms stand on end that's what it's all about fellas. And don't give me this garbage that all I need is a good set up. I spend $4000+ and then I have to spend even more money finding a tech or luthier in my area that I can trust not to butcher it, with no guarantees that he wont? You gotta be kidding me. I'm sorry but if I spend that kind of money on a guitar I'm not going to trust a 19 year old in the back of Guitar Center to set it up. The only one I would trust is the manufacturer......but I forgot, Bob Taylor doesn't do set ups.

[Gary Palmer]

Hi Gary, We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think a ubiquitous recommendation is to have one's new guitar properly set up, though some arrive just as the customer wants. Zager gives me the impression that Martins are in themselves flawed as to playability, a flaw which he corrects with his guitars. Best, Bill

I agree regarding the option as to whether or not a new guitar needs setting-up, but think Zager's intended target area is online (Take the easy route) custom and not hands on musicians who tend to be a little more picky.

On Zager. I think Sigma are the targetted instruments (Being the ones he works on and ones I felt could have been improved with a little more work) and not Martin's home grown lines, but have no problem agreeing to disagree mate.

[Broadus]

Overpriced? You're trying to tell me that Zager is overpriced? Go spend $3000+ on a new Martin D35. Go spend $4000+ on a new Taylor 9. Then go spend $800 on a Zager and tell me which guitar plays easiest and I'll even be so bold to ask you to compare sound quality. I've played all of these models extensively and I can tell you that Martin and Taylor should be nervous to have guitars like Zagers floating around. I think this is why many of you so called pros in this forum bash Zager any opportunity you get. I would feel a little upset too after spending 3 or 4 grand on a guitar that doesn't perform as well as a guitar at a fraction of the price. I think Zager is a saint compared to these big brands who think they own the market and rip off the general public just because they put their name on the headstock. You know as well as I do that Taylor builds that guitar for less then $500 and then has the audacity to sell it for $4000? If anyones a rip off artist it's Bob Taylor. It all boils down to playability and sound. If it plays like butter and makes the hair on your arms stand on end that's what it's all about fellas.

Charlotte,

Yes, overpriced. It's a solid top, laminated back and sides guitar. How do you "know" that "Taylor builds that guitar for less than $500 and then has the audacity to sell it for $4000"? Such an unsubstantiated charge reminds me of Zager's claim about Martins having playability issues.

Now, some points of clarification. I am not a "pro," just a conscientious consumer who hates to see others spend more money than they have to. Comes from a lifetime of necessitated frugality, I guess.

Second, I don't own a Martin or a Taylor. I own a Norman ST68 (are they as big around your neck of the woods as around mine? ) that I bought used from a fellow forumite for a great price. It has a solid spruce top and a solid rosewood back with lam sides. Its street price is about $850 new, and it's a sweet sounding and very easy to play guitar. I paid much less for it used.

Also, I own a Simon and Patrick Songsmith Folk. I suspect you've never seen one. Street price new is $299. It has a solid top and laminated back and sides. It, too, is easy to play, but I want to have the action lowered which will further enhance its playability.

If you own a Zager, my two gits cost me less than you have in one Zager. So, enough with the assumptions.

Again, if you want a Zager, have at it. I would just like to read an unbiased review from a print acoustic magazine, such as Acoustic Guitar Magazine.

Bill

[Broadus]

I agree regarding the option as to whether or not a new guitar needs setting-up, but think Zager's intended target area is online (Take the easy route) custom and not hands on musicians who tend to be a little more picky. On Zager. I think Sigma are the targetted instruments (Being the ones he works on and ones I felt could have been improved with a little more work) and not Martin's home grown lines, but have no problem agreeing to disagree mate.

BTW, Gary, I received an email from Dennis Zager, Jr., that Zager is discontinuing their Sigma/Martin line:

We've been buying Martins from Martin Guitar Company in Nazareth Pennsylvania for over 25 years now but this year Denny decided to discontinue them because of structural issues. The main problems we've had with the Martins are bridges pulling, warping of the necks, and broken truss rods...and it all began in early 2007. We back everything we sell with a lifetime warranty and a 100% money back guarantee and because of this we don't like to send out guitars that we don't feel will last a lifetime and at the moment we aren't that confident with the Martins. If you look at the thousands of testimonials and reviews you will find on our guitars you will notice that almost all of them revolve around the Zagers and it's for a reason. Denny designs the Zagers from scratch for his patented String Science system and because of this they play easier then the Martins and they sound much more powerful. They also have much higher quality genuine Fishman electronics systems along with solid woods where some of the Martins are now using laminate. I believe it's for these reasons that Martin has decided to discontinue this line of guitars for 2008. We've been in business almost 40 years now and do almost all of our business from referral so whenever Denny sees an issue like this we like to make our customers aware of it.

Interestingly, Dennis never uses the word "Sigma," but uses the word "Martin." Also, if they're having such widespread issues, why don't they return their "Martins" instead of continuing to sell them?

Thanks for a civil discussion. We don't even have to call each other denigrating names while we disagree.

Bill

[riffmeister]

Which aspect isn't entirely true?

 

 

D18 and D45 are different woods (mahogany vs Indian rosewood) and I believe there are also differences in the details of the bracing. It's not just the bling difference.

[riffmeister]

I also find the entire Martin angle of this debate to be an irrelevant distraction. Even if we agree up front that Martin is guilty of lying to their customers (I don't agree with this one bit, but hypothetically), this in no way would excuse Zager's false representation of their product.

 

 

I am not excusing Zager's BS. But at the same time, I don't mind broadening the topic a bit to include other types of marketing BS.

[Charlotte941]

Charlotte, Yes, overpriced. It's a solid top, laminated back and sides guitar. How do you "know" that "Taylor builds that guitar for less than $500 and then has the audacity to sell it for $4000"? Such an unsubstantiated charge reminds me of Zager's claim about Martins having playability issues. Now, some points of clarification. I am not a "pro," just a conscientious consumer who hates to see others spend more money than they have to. Comes from a lifetime of necessitated frugality, I guess. Second, I don't own a Martin or a Taylor. I own a Norman ST68 (are they as big around your neck of the woods as around mine? ) that I bought used from a fellow forumite for a great price. It has a solid spruce top and a solid rosewood back with lam sides. Its street price is about $850 new, and it's a sweet sounding and very easy to play guitar. I paid much less for it used. Also, I own a Simon and Patrick Songsmith Folk. I suspect you've never seen one. Street price new is $299. It has a solid top and laminated back and sides. It, too, is easy to play, but I want to have the action lowered which will further enhance its playability. If you own a Zager, my two gits cost me less than you have in one Zager. So, enough with the assumptions. Again, if you want a Zager, have at it. I would just like to read an unbiased review from a print acoustic magazine, such as Acoustic Guitar Magazine. Bill

I'm in the wholesale business and on a product that's retailing over $4k the manufacturer is generally making 50%, sometimes even more as in sporting goods, shoes etc. With that being said there is no doubt that Taylor is making in excess of $2000 on every $4000 guitar they sell, probably significantly more. You're trying to tell me that Denny is overcharging for his guitars when Bob Taylor is making 10 fold that amount and isn't even doing a set up? Denny Zager did the work on my guitar. It's signed on the inside by Denny and it's signed on the back by him personally. I also received a dated poloroid picture of Denny working on my guitar as I could see from the wood grains in the picture matching my guitar perfectly. So I pay Taylor Guitars $4k for a guitar that Bob Taylors probably never seen and I doubt he's ever worked on. (He leaves that work to his guitar techs that come from across the boarder every morning.) Zager is a mom and pop operation. Taylor is a large faceless corporation. I tried to contact Taylor once and waited 2 weeks for a response from a girl who knew nothing about guitars...I guess she was a customer service rep who said she couldn't help me with my type of questions and passed the buck to Guitar Center. When I contacted Zager I spoke personally with Dennis Jr. (Denny's son) on a Sunday afternoon. He answered all my questions and we spent close to 45 minutes on the phone. Get this from Martin or Taylor...I think not. And while we're at it lets talk resale values. I went out and tried to find a used Zager on Ebay before buying mine brand new and I only found one. (which should tell you alot) The guy who was selling it wanted the same price he paid for it telling me that every year prices rise on Zagers (as Denny has a tough time keeping up with customer demand) and since this was Denny's last year working on guitars prices are probably going to be rising significantly. When I purchased my used Taylor for $2800 I bought it from a poor shmuck who paid over $4000 for it the previous year. So not only do I get an easier playing guitar from Zager, when I decide to sell it I don't lose my a**. So you're busy on this forum trying to protect players from getting robbed by Zager? Get real! And by the way, I don't trust reviews from magazines as magazines make their revenue from companies like Taylor and Martin who advertise in those magazines. I'll get my reviews from real players who actually own the guitar.

[Broadus]

Charlotte,

 

Enjoy your Zager. I'll enjoy by Godins.

 

Best,

Bill

[Gary Palmer]

D18 and D45 are different woods (mahogany vs Indian rosewood) and I believe there are also differences in the details of the bracing. It's not just the bling difference.

 

 

There's not too much difference between D45 and D18 in terms of labour or materials, with little more time taken installing pre-cut abalone, pearl and standard X scalloped bracing on the D45 in comparison to the less ornate bindings and plainer bracing on the D18. Cerainly insufficient to justify such a gulf in price. The price differential and labour involved in processing machine thicknessed and finished Indian rosewood and mahogany isn't as great as many would lead you to believe. I enjoy my D45, D28 and D16, but don't place them on pedestals.

[Broadus]

Gary,

Quite a nice collection you have there. Congratulations.

Bill

[riffmeister]

There's not too much difference between D45 and D18 in terms of labour or materials. Cerainly insufficient to justify such a gulf in price.

 

 

I agree.

 

.

[Gary Palmer]

Interestingly, Dennis never uses the word "Sigma," but uses the word "Martin." Also, if they're having such widespread issues, why don't they return their "Martins" instead of continuing to sell them? Thanks for a civil discussion. We don't even have to call each other denigrating names while we disagree. Bill

Cropped for the sake of space.

Never a problem Bill and with regard to keeping things civil, I couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of people tend to drop the "Sigma", "Squier" and "Jasmine" from their "made by" goods. Perhaps it's a pride thing or even an element of bs and DIY shoulder patting.

It's the first time I've heard any whispers regarding serious issues with Martin. Whether or not that's the case I suppose we'll never truly know, unless a dealer or someone in the know decides to offer his two penneth worth (Read two cents worth). Although I do have a "budget" Tanglewood that's promising to blow the socks off my Martin D28 once it's matured.

------

Taylor may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I'd suggest using them as an example for the sake of cost comparisons is mistaken. Their standards for quality run across the board and methinks Martin and Gibson could honestly take a few hints from them when considering the inconsistancies in their lower end pieces.

In addition. Present guitar prices are extremely competitive with those witnessed ten to fifteen years ago with the fact that some models are cheaper and more affordable than they were then. Maybe an indication of the strength of overseas competition?

[bsman]

I guess one of my issues is this: If "string science" were truly such a wonderful advance, would he not have a bunch of professional musicians as endorsees? Would he not offer his "EZ-play" modifications to players' (otherwise hard-to-play) Taylors, Martins, etc?

 

I just checked his website, and all he offers are "testimonials" by unknown folks and reviews from such respected publications as "Gritz" magazine(?!) by the "well-known" guitarist Michael "Redtail Wolf" Nystrom (interestingly, Mr. Tail is listed twice - both for Gritz and himself) and Marketing analyst Joe Vitale... Not exactly a star-studded list of endorsees. I find it quite interesting (and more than a little disturbing) that he lists a review by a well-known huckster such as Vitale (author of "the attraction factor" "Hypnotic Selling" and other urban myths...)

 

I dunno -

 

 

Also, I did not on the website that when you go to the "guitars" page, the Sigmas are advertized as "EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM-1 Acoustic and "EZ-Play Martin DM Acoustic". When you click on it you get: "The Martin DM is Sigma's highest quality ..."

 

Misleading? You bet!

[Gary Palmer]

Gary, Quite a nice collection you have there. Congratulations. Bill

Many thanks Bill. 25yrs worth and God only knows how many headaches from the missus over the years The arthritis is slowing me down a bit these days and I don't play as often as I used to, but my daughters all play and I'm hoping they'll put them to good use as they grow older.

[Broadus]

Charlotte,

 

Help me understand why Zager prominently displays Acoustic Guitar Magazine in its magazine reviews and on its eBay site. I'm sure you've read AGM's "review":

 

Acoustic Guitar Magazine

 

SETUP SHOP - November 2003

 

"With big box stores and catalog shopping ever on the rise, the knowledge, personal attention and long term value offered by a small independent shop all offset the onetime benefit of a rock-bottom price.

 

The guitar's "setup" is the most important thing.

 

Beginners need positive reinforcement from their efforts instead of spending hours trying to get the notes of a chord to sound clear and not succeeding.

 

They need LOW action.

 

Selling guitars without doing a setup first is a rip-off to the customer"

 

This review has nothing in it about Zagers. It's simply a common sense statement about the need for good setups and low action. Yet, it is put forth as though AGM has actually reviewed a Zager or is talking about Zagers, an implication which I don't see in the quote. If indeed the magazine was referring to the Zager method or whatever, you can rest assured it would have been quoted.

 

Do you not agree that this is deception, at least in this instance?

 

Bill

[Gary Palmer]

I guess one of my issues is this: If "string science" were truly such a wonderful advance, would he not have a bunch of professional musicians as endorsees? Would he not offer his "EZ-play" modifications to players' (otherwise hard-to-play) Taylors, Martins, etc? I just checked his website, and all he offers are "testimonials" by unknown folks and reviews from such respected publications as "Gritz" magazine(?!) by the "well-known" guitarist Michael "Redtail Wolf" Nystrom (interestingly, Mr. Tail is listed twice - both for Gritz and himself) and Marketing analyst Joe Vitale... Not exactly a star-studded list of endorsees. I find it quite interesting (and more than a little disturbing) that he lists a review by a well-known huckster such as Vitale (author of "the attraction factor" "Hypnotic Selling" and other urban myths...) I dunno - Also, I did not on the website that when you go to the "guitars" page, the Sigmas are advertized as "EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM-1 Acoustic and "EZ-Play Martin DM Acoustic". When you click on it you get: "The Martin DM is Sigma's highest quality ..." Misleading? You bet!

 

 

Misleading to the point where you read beyond the headings. I'd be an expert in ladies underwear or jewellery if I believed the advertising and expected some kind of supermodel included with every bra or diamond necklace. My meaning is that wording and advertising can be taken (Interpretted) in any which way, shape, or form, but there's no way that brand new Jimmy Hendrix or Eric Clapton pedal is going to make anyone sound like Hendrix or Clapton.

 

Guitar modification on the other hand is optional. Whether or not you buy into a certain magical selling point? Well ..... That's up to the individual and his or her tastes.

[HalsJamin43]

I guess one of my issues is this: If "string science" were truly such a wonderful advance, would he not have a bunch of professional musicians as endorsees? Would he not offer his "EZ-play" modifications to players' (otherwise hard-to-play) Taylors, Martins, etc? I just checked his website, and all he offers are "testimonials" by unknown folks and reviews from such respected publications as "Gritz" magazine(?!) by the "well-known" guitarist Michael "Redtail Wolf" Nystrom (interestingly, Mr. Tail is listed twice - both for Gritz and himself) and Marketing analyst Joe Vitale... Not exactly a star-studded list of endorsees. I find it quite interesting (and more than a little disturbing) that he lists a review by a well-known huckster such as Vitale (author of "the attraction factor" "Hypnotic Selling" and other urban myths...) I dunno - Also, I did not on the website that when you go to the "guitars" page, the Sigmas are advertized as "EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM-1 Acoustic and "EZ-Play Martin DM Acoustic". When you click on it you get: "The Martin DM is Sigma's highest quality ..." Misleading? You bet!

 

 

Found this one:

Recent customer testimonial:

04-07-2006 - Hello Dennis, I received your guitar today and what a great instrument it is! I really like it a lot. It almost sounds like a piano. Very crisp and articulate, perfectly in tune. A very musical guitar! I like the fact that it's light weight. The neck is very easy to play everywhere, I can bend the strings easily and there's no buzz at all! The sound is focused, full range, nice bottom, solid mids, rich and round highs. Plus, I think it looks awesome! Thank you so much, I really appreciate that guitar. Please, say hello to your father for me, I'm a big fan of his song "In The Year 2525" I was only 8 years old when it came out but I remember it very well, even if I lived far, far away in Chicoutimi province of Quebec, Canada, and that brings me back a lot of good memories. Best regards and if you're ever around Las Vegas and would like to see Celine's show please let me know and I'll be more than happy to arrange something for you. Thank you again,

Andre Coutu

Lead guitarist for Celine Dion

Las Vegas, Nevada

[17.817]

I am not excusing Zager's BS. But at the same time, I don't mind broadening the topic a bit to include other types of marketing BS.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't really mean to ascribe the Martin angle to you. Understood and certainly fair enough to broaden the BS topic (God knows Zager doesn't have a monopoly on BS). I just meant that - again, this really isn't in opposition to anything you have posted personally - I don't buy the suggestion that Zager's practices are somehow acceptable because other businesses are in their own way full of crap, too.

[Charlotte941]

Charlotte, Enjoy your Zager. I'll enjoy by Godins. Best, Bill

This is your response? Geez..It sure is funny how quiet the naysayers get when they're shut down on every front.

[bsman]

Found this one: Recent customer testimonial: 04-07-2006 - Hello Dennis, I received your guitar today and what a great instrument it is! I really like it a lot. It almost sounds like a piano. Very crisp and articulate, perfectly in tune. A very musical guitar! I like the fact that it's light weight. The neck is very easy to play everywhere, I can bend the strings easily and there's no buzz at all! The sound is focused, full range, nice bottom, solid mids, rich and round highs. Plus, I think it looks awesome! Thank you so much, I really appreciate that guitar. Please, say hello to your father for me, I'm a big fan of his song "In The Year 2525" I was only 8 years old when it came out but I remember it very well, even if I lived far, far away in Chicoutimi province of Quebec, Canada, and that brings me back a lot of good memories. Best regards and if you're ever around Las Vegas and would like to see Celine's show please let me know and I'll be more than happy to arrange something for you. Thank you again, Andre Coutu Lead guitarist for Celine Dion Las Vegas, Nevada

I can certainly admit it when I get:



However, you've got to admit that the "reviews" page has some pretty dodgy stuff and that the "EZ-Play Martin DM Acoustic" offered on the guitars page is misleading at best...

[Gary Palmer]

Charlotte, Help me understand why Zager prominently displays Acoustic Guitar Magazine in its magazine reviews and on its eBay site. I'm sure you've read AGM's "review": Acoustic Guitar Magazine SETUP SHOP - November 2003 "With big box stores and catalog shopping ever on the rise, the knowledge, personal attention and long term value offered by a small independent shop all offset the onetime benefit of a rock-bottom price. The guitar's "setup" is the most important thing. Beginners need positive reinforcement from their efforts instead of spending hours trying to get the notes of a chord to sound clear and not succeeding. They need LOW action. Selling guitars without doing a setup first is a rip-off to the customer" This review has nothing in it about Zagers. It's simply a common sense statement about the need for good setups and low action. Yet, it is put forth as though AGM has actually reviewed a Zager or is talking about Zagers, an implication which I don't see in the quote. If indeed the magazine was referring to the Zager method or whatever, you can rest assured it would have been quoted. Do you not agree that this is deception, at least in this instance? Bill

 

 

Certainly misleading, but using bullet points - as quoted - could also be looked upon as sales reinforcement. Especially when tied in with a company's policies.

 

Asking a prospective customer as many "yes" questions (Where the only answer is yes) as possible and the result is typically a sale.

[Bitt81]

Found this one: Recent customer testimonial: 04-07-2006 - Hello Dennis, I received your guitar today and what a great instrument it is! I really like it a lot. It almost sounds like a piano. Very crisp and articulate, perfectly in tune. A very musical guitar! I like the fact that it's light weight. The neck is very easy to play everywhere, I can bend the strings easily and there's no buzz at all! The sound is focused, full range, nice bottom, solid mids, rich and round highs. Plus, I think it looks awesome! Thank you so much, I really appreciate that guitar. Please, say hello to your father for me, I'm a big fan of his song "In The Year 2525" I was only 8 years old when it came out but I remember it very well, even if I lived far, far away in Chicoutimi province of Quebec, Canada, and that brings me back a lot of good memories. Best regards and if you're ever around Las Vegas and would like to see Celine's show please let me know and I'll be more than happy to arrange something for you. Thank you again, Andre Coutu Lead guitarist for Celine Dion Las Vegas, Nevada

I eagerly await the Andre Coutu sig model Zager.

[Broadus]

Certainly misleading, but using bullet points - as quoted - could also be looked upon as sales reinforcement. Especially when tied in with a company's policies. Asking a prospective customer as many "yes" questions (Where the only answer is yes) as possible and the result is typically a sale.

 

 

Yes, if it were on a page about the importance of setups, it would be proper. To place it as a review is deception, IMO.

 

Best,

Bill

[garthman]

Gary, if I were you I would pop along to the Cumberland Arms and have a few pints of one of their excellent beers. It'll be more enjoyable than talking to Charlotte, I assure you.

[garthman]

Bill. sadly you are too far away from the Cumberland Arms but may I recommend a similar remedy.