Members Misha Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 The bad/sad thing with this thread (all these Zager threads, actually) is that instead of playing the darn thing, I read the posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 For a Sigma to be sold as a Martin is unethical---it seems there is agreement there.Does it not follow that to sell a Sigma as a specially modified Martin is also unethical?Bill Not when you go to the website and it says: "EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic $495" "Denny likes the Martin Sigma series because it offers you the quality and patented design characteristics of Martins higher end instruments (costing several thousand dollars) for a fraction of the price." I have no problem with this in the slightest. You would have to be completely ignorant or blind not to see that Denny is selling a Martin Sigma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 For a Sigma to be sold as a Martin is unethical---it seems there is agreement there. Does it not follow that to sell a Sigma as a specially modified Martin is also unethical? Bill Not also unethical......even more unethical! Kinda like, taking an unethical marketing practice and building on it. That makes the next guy in the Chain even more unethical. Sigmas and such are not great guitars. Zager guitars are modified Sigmas and such. Therefore all Zagers are not great guitars. That is pure Logic....I think we have it now!:poke::poke::poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 For a Sigma to be sold as a Martin is unethical---it seems there is agreement there. Does it not follow that to sell a Sigma as a specially modified Martin is also unethical? Bill But when I go to guitar shops and play dumb asking is this a real Martin?... the only answer I ever get from the salesmen is "Yes it's a Martin, that's why it says Martin on it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Not when you go to the website and it says:"EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic $495""Denny likes the Martin Sigma series because it offers you the quality and patented design characteristics of Martins higher end instruments (costing several thousand dollars) for a fraction of the price."I have no problem with this in the slightest. You would have to be completely ignorant or blind not to see that Denny is selling a Martin Sigma. There is and has never been any Sigma DM model by Martin.The DM is a Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 I have no problem with this in the slightest. You would have to be completely ignorant or blind not to see that Denny is selling a Martin Sigma. ....and anyone who would pay $600 incl. shipping for a discontinued $200 Asian made plywood guitar and believe they are getting a $1000 guitar is......? Buddy...I HAVE a Sigma..it is NOT worth $600 no matter how much it is Zagerized. In fact if you look closely at the tuners on Mr Zager's website "Sigma DM" they are the worst piece of chinese junk garbage dollar store tuners that I have ever seen in my life. Now you wanna call a spade a spade? I would like to know why he doesn't at least replace them with $20 sealed Ping Tuners...like I'd have to right off the bat if I bought that guitar. Geeeeeeze.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 There is and has never been any Sigma DM model by Martin.The DM is a Martin. Martin Sigma DM-1 Martin Sigma DM-1stce You can find both models most anywhere on the Web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HalsJamin43 Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 ....and anyone who would pay $600 incl. shipping for a discontinued $200 Asian made plywood guitar and believe they are getting a $1000 guitar is......? Buddy...I HAVE a Sigma..it is NOT worth $600 no matter how much it is Zagerized. In fact if you look closely at the tuners on Mr Zager's website "Sigma DM" they are the worst piece of chinese junk garbage dollar store tuners that I heve ever seen in my life. Now you wanna call a spade a spade? I would like to know why he doesn't at least replace them with $20 sealed Ping Tuners...like I'd have to right off the bat if I bought that guitar. Geeeeeeze.... Go look at Denny's own line of guitars...genuine Grovers all the way. I wouldn't buy the Sigma either because they they have laminate tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 There is and has never been any Sigma DM model by Martin. The DM is a Martin. Try this enlightening link; www.sigmaguitars.com/dm1.html Especially since Sigma is described as a subsidiary of CF Martin (Their parent company). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jd-drafter Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 amazing- i still can't believe this- given what you see in the quote- consider this- 1- i was told by denny jr. in an email that denny sr. hasn't done a setup in 20 years- yet the image above clearly states that "denny" hand modifies the guitar's- which denny? how could the website be 20 years out of date, it probably did not exist 20 yrs ago. 2- again with the martin- in my emails denny jr. said that they stopped using "martins" this year due to quality control problems "bridges pulling, warping of the necks, and broken truss rods". oddly enough he said that because of the above issues martin was discontinuing that line of guitar's in 2008. hmm? they stopped using them this year- and martin is now discontinuing them as well? if it was me i would have that martin logo off my website so fast your head would spin... given the obvious issues with them. 8^) maybe having that logo there helps just a little to catch the eye of a perspective customer perhaps? 3- last- from what denny jr. told me- they order their guitar's "prescalloped", that is the interior braces are scalloped at the factory to their specifications. given that point- what else is to their specifications? rather than do all of that tedious fret work and filing why not just order it with lower frets? and why bother reworking the nut and saddle, just order it to your spec's and save a lot of work. now this does not explain the pictures we have seen of the frets filed flat or the really deep nut on the stock photo and the proper depth on the delivered guitar's etc... this raised alot of questions in my mind- what if the guitar's are coming already built to spec and all you are paying extra for is denny's name in marker on the back of your guitar and a signed Polaroid of him? just curious if these point's raise any eyebrow's- to the zager customer's- did you think or were you given the impression that that denny sr. personally setup your guitar? does that really matter as long as what you have plays well and you are happy with it? i am very interested to see the number's and feed back from max's purchase- if i had the money i might buy one just to see for myself- curious in an 'area 51' kind of way... 8^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Not when you go to the website and it says:"EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic $495""Denny likes the Martin Sigma series because it offers you the quality and patented design characteristics of Martins higher end instruments (costing several thousand dollars) for a fraction of the price."I have no problem with this in the slightest. You would have to be completely ignorant or blind not to see that Denny is selling a Martin Sigma. There is no such thing as a "Martin Sigma DM". Denny also claims the Sigmas are built in the same place that Martins are built. Another flat out lie. Keep defending Zager..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Try this enlightening link; www.sigmaguitars.com/dm1.html Especially since Sigma is described as a subsidiary of CF Martin (Their parent company). Man, am I slow! Here I was thinking the EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic was a solid top guitar. I cannot believe that folks would pay $500 for a laminate top, regardless of setup. Each time a new piece of the puzzle is shown, the picture gets worse. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Go look at Denny's own line of guitars...genuine Grovers all the way. I wouldn't buy the Sigma either because they they have laminate tops. They made solid top Sigma guitars. Denny is stll selling them as Martin Sigma DM's. Edit: There were solid top Sigma guitars, but it appears Denny is selling an all laminated model for $495 + $45 shipping! Holy crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Go look at Denny's own line of guitars...genuine Grovers all the way. I wouldn't buy the Sigma either because they they have laminate tops. Did you even read what I posted?... Please stop trying to sell Zager guitars here..ok? I have no intention of going to look at Zager's "own line"...geeeeze...dude. Give the sales pitch a rest... I worked in mail order retail for many years...I have seen this type of marketing bullsh*t before. I would personally forge the signature of a so called "famous expert" on the Ceritificate of Authenticity of the item we where shipping simply because we had the license to do so. Oh by the way..the "famous expert" was long dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Man, am I slow! Here I was thinking the EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic was a solid top guitar. I cannot believe that folks would pay $500 for a laminate top, regardless of setup. Each time a new piece of the puzzle is shown, the picture gets worse. Bill This is my point Bill. I have an asian made all laminate Sigma. It was worth brand new $199. It is all it's worth. As I have said all along...this is the classic case of trying to make a sow's ear look like a silk purse.....It's typical mail order bullsh*t... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Try this enlightening link; www.sigmaguitars.com/dm1.html Especially since Sigma is described as a subsidiary of CF Martin (Their parent company). You guys know more about the history of this than I, but Gary's link clearly shows "Sigma Guitars by Martin & Co." The Martin name is conspicuously used to sell Sigmas, yes? Of course, it does not exonerate Zager, but it is used to give him cover. I still can't get over $500 for an all-lam git. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 They made solid top Sigma guitars. Denny is stll selling them as Martin Sigma DM's. Hud, they're laminates; not solid top. Go here and click the "Compare Guitars" link. Bill Edit: Hud, just saw your edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 amazing- i still can't believe this- given what you see in the quote- consider this- 1- i was told by denny jr. in an email that denny sr. hasn't done a setup in 20 years- yet the image above clearly states that "denny" hand modifies the guitar's- which denny? how could the website be 20 years out of date, it probably did not exist 20 yrs ago. 2- again with the martin- in my emails denny jr. said that they stopped using "martins" this year due to quality control problems "bridges pulling, warping of the necks, and broken truss rods". oddly enough he said that because of the above issues martin was discontinuing that line of guitar's in 2008. hmm? they stopped using them this year- and martin is now discontinuing them as well? if it was me i would have that martin logo off my website so fast your head would spin... given the obvious issues with them. 8^) maybe having that logo there helps just a little to catch the eye of a perspective customer perhaps? 3- last- from what denny jr. told me- they order their guitar's "prescalloped", that is the interior braces are scalloped at the factory to their specifications. given that point- what else is to their specifications? rather than do all of that tedious fret work and filing why not just order it with lower frets? and why bother reworking the nut and saddle, just order it to your spec's and save a lot of work. now this does not explain the pictures we have seen of the frets filed flat or the really deep nut on the stock photo and the proper depth on the delivered guitar's etc... this raised alot of questions in my mind- what if the guitar's are coming already built to spec and all you are paying extra for is denny's name in marker on the back of your guitar and a signed Polaroid of him? just curious if these point's raise any eyebrow's- to the zager customer's- :freak: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 At least, the Sigma Dm-1ST and DR-1ST both have a solid top. http://www.sigmaguitars.com/dm-1st.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hud, they're laminates; not solid top. Go here and click the "Compare Guitars" link. Bill Edit: Hud, just saw your edit. You'll notice there is no mention of a Martin Sigma or Sigman by Maritn. It's "Martin DM". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Man, am I slow! Here I was thinking the EZ-Play Martin Sigma DM Acoustic was a solid top guitar. I cannot believe that folks would pay $500 for a laminate top, regardless of setup. Each time a new piece of the puzzle is shown, the picture gets worse. Bill Apparently the only solid topped offerings from "Sigma by CF Martin & Co." were the DM-1ST, DR-1ST and DR-41. I distinctly remember Sigma were heavily advertised throughout their existance by authorised distributors as being Martin's budget range of acoustic. "Every bit a Martin, but one to suit everyone's pocket" - or something like that. This is akin to nominating a Squier by Fender as a full blooded Fender, but in reality they're simply licensed and budget orientated copies. There and again many well known companies and their subsidiaries tend to cloud the water a little during advertising. No excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hud, they're laminates; not solid top. Go here and click the "Compare Guitars" link.Bill I know, I edited that post. I confused the Zad 50 specs with the "Martin Sigma DM" (?) specs. Sigma by Martin is no different than Epiphone by Gibson. It's not misleading or confusing for most people. Selling a Sigma as a Martin Sigma DM, claiming that you perform some type of new, innovative set up on the guitar and more than doubling the Sigma selling price is a flat out scam. I don't see how a rational person could defend him. It is obvious that many of our Zagerites are here on a mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 You'll notice there is no mention of a Martin Sigma or Sigman by Maritn. It's "Martin DM". Yep. Zager makes full and indiscriminate use of the Martin name. If Zager were to really drop his Sigma ("Martin/Sigma," whatever) line, as Dennis, Jr., emailed to me that they were going to do, there would be much less concern. I wonder how many uninitiated folks, and there are tons of them, end up with a "Zager" Zager after first coming to his site because of "Martin" showing up in a Google search. Have no idea; just wondering. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 I'm asking myself a question: maybe CF Martin & Co. know about D. Zager using their name and maybe they get paid for that! ??? (I'm bad... I know!) edit: I would still not buy a Zager! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 At least, the Sigma Dm-1ST and DR-1ST both have a solid top. http://www.sigmaguitars.com/dm-1st.html Actually..the Japanese made Sigma DM-5's, DR-7's and DR-41's also had solid spruce tops and sell for $300-$400 used. The later Korean made DM-1's and DM-2's are laminate tops. I paid $150 for my used Sigma DM-2. It's all that it's worth to me. I actually love the guitar for live gigs and will never trade or sell it simply because I need it for what I do. It plays great, is solid..stays in tune and to me, when it's plugged into a PA system it's just as good as any dread out there. There are 3 guitars I will keep forever...my Taylor 114, Martin 000-15 and my old Sigma DM-2. I wish we could have a "Sigma" thread intsed of these Zager threads... OGP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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