Zager (yes, this post is different)

[daklander]

Fretfiend, setup done by an authorized Martin dealer's tech does not void the warranty on the guitar. If you have some hack do something that causes damage there will be no coverage. Actually, a setup can be done at the factory, to your specs if you make arrangements before hand.

Pretty much the same thing with a heel button. If it's put in the wrong position or damages the neck the warranty on the neck will be void however the rest of the guitar will still be under warranty.

Something to keep in mind, a setup is not custom work and it's supposed be be done, upon sale to the buyer's specs by the selling store's technician. At no, or little cost as well.

As a matter of fact, there are quite a number of players who prefer a high action. Particularly people who really dig hard with a pick or their fingers, including many bluegrass players and slide players.

[FretFiend]

Fretfiend, setup done by an authorized Martin dealer's tech does not void the warranty on the guitar. If you have some hack do something that causes damage there will be no coverage. Actually, a setup can be done at the factory, to your specs if you make arrangements before hand. Pretty much the same thing with a heel button. If it's put in the wrong position or damages the neck the warranty on the neck will be void however the rest of the guitar will still be under warranty. Something to keep in mind, a setup is not custom work and it's supposed be be done, upon sale to the buyer's specs by the selling store's technician. At no, or little cost as well. As a matter of fact, there are quite a number of players who prefer a high action. Particularly people who really dig hard with a pick or their fingers, including many bluegrass players and slide players.

 

 

I was not referring to the warranty. I was talking about being able to return the guitar after having it set up. You cannot return a guitar after having it set up.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Mr. FretFiend...welcome to the forum;

Now... both my Martin 000-15 and Taylor 114 were setup properly (for me) right off the rack as I tried both before I bought them at the shop. Personally I have never encountered this so-called "high action" Martin guitar. I have tried several. Even the DX1 dread I tried played perfectly..at least for me. The Martin DX12 was the best playing and sounding 12 string in the store..perfect intonation. Every Taylor off the rack I have tried was beautiful to play.

Also..I will never sell or "return" my Taylor or Martin so I have no problem with the "yours forever" concept. The lowering of the saddle and adjusting the truss rod of a guitar does not void the warranty. I have also read actual posts from other longterm Martin owners who have had their 40 yr old guitars repaired and practically re-built at the factory at no cost as long as they could prove they where the original and sole owner of the guitar. I'd like to know how Martin has stayed in business for 175 years if they treated customers so badly or their guitars were so badly built that people had to "return" them.

Now..I do not play with a lower than normal action and the measurements on my guitars are pretty standard: Low E 3.5mm, High E 2.5mm. That's about as low as I would go as I play slide and like to strum hard like Dak says. I dont really like the tone of a guitar with too low and action. I use medium gauge strings on my Taylor and lights on the Martin. Same with my electrics...because I play blues and lot of slide I use heavier strings and a higher action than say...Joe Satriani...

OGP

[Gary Palmer]

You read an emotion into my comment regarding, what appeared to be your inability to discern a difference between two models by two different companies. Perhaps you considered it a reaction to your statement, taken out of context. For that you concluded that I have an attitude. Your explanation is quite satisfactory and I have no wish to take the situation any further. I am a Businessman...it is all nothing personal and just business. My sources are the Sigma Website and the Martin Website.....anyone can find that information. Quoting them does nothing to further the validity of the statement. Gary, unfortunately, there are so many statements made here that reflect a capricious and cavalier approach to the facts. Time often does not allow one to expound on the details of replies and thus the written word does not often convey a thorough understanding of it's context. You appear to be an astute and well schooled Formite who makes valuable contributions to this site. As such you have my respect. Like you, I articulate my thoughts, as best I can to reflect my intellect. And like you I embrace shifts in paradigms, that bring about further awareness in any subject. I am not aware of what it is like to have ulcers or be frustrated in an unbecoming manner by having "my panties in a twist". Being from North East England, you should know that as a Scot....I don't ware Panties! :lol:

[Charlotte941]

This is not in defense of Zager but can we all agree that until you have your guitar "set up", "modified", "Zagerized" (whatever you want to call it) you will never know the true potential of that particular guitar? Everyone always asks why the big brands like Martin and Taylor dont set up their guitars straight from the factory with lower action? Chris Martin the owner of Martin Guitar Company said publically that they leave their guitars with higher action supposedly because many players don't like low action? This kind of baffled me. I don't know about you but I have never met a player who didn't want an easier playing guitar. So I decided to make a phone call to a buddy of mine who's dad owns several retail guitar shops and I asked his opinion as to why the big brands like Martin and Taylor don't come from the factory set up? It just so happened his dad was there when I called so he handed the phone over to him. Do you know what the old man told me? It kinda blew me away. He said it's because Martin knows that once a guitar has custom work it is no longer returnable. Martin leaves their action high on purpose because they realized that their return rates in stores (especially on their pricier guitars) plummeted once the stores began enforcing a policy that did not allow a guitar to be returned after it had custom work. Filing the nut, adjusting the saddle, sanding the frets, it really didn't matter. So if you pay several thousand dollars for an expensive guitar (or several hundred for a cheap guitar) there's a pretty good chance that you're going to want to have it set up because after all, you want to see that guitars true potential. So you spend even more money setting it up, but what happens if you don't like the way it plays after the set up? The answer is >>>> IT'S YOURS FOREVER! You own it and you can't return it. This store owner said that Martin has known this for decades and so do the large retail chains who sell their guitars. Other newer companies like Taylor followed suit leaving their action high because at the end of the year it's all about profits. Have you always wondered why you see slightly used guitars popping up on Ebay all the time.....now you know why.

 

 

 

This is why I bought a Zager. They let me try it out in my own home for 2 months before committing to the sale. The day that Martin, Taylor or any other big brand does this I'll buy their guitars, but not until then.

[daklander]

I was not referring to the warranty. I was talking about being able to return the guitar after having it set up. You cannot return a guitar after having it set up.

 

 

My bad, I misunderstood but that begs the question, why would one want to return a guitar that sounded good enough to them to have it set up perfectly for their tastes? I personally never purchase instruments I haven't actually played so I certainly wouldn't spend money to have it set up in the hopes it would sound better. That leaves out buying on line unless I'm taking a flyer and the price is really right. Then I run what I brung, so to speak. If I were to buy a higher end guitar via mail order, or web order I would certainly not spend the money again unless I was very pleased with the tone and workmanship of the guitar. So, in that sense I don't understand your reasoning about returning a guitar after it's set up. And, really, IMO, if a person is dumb enough to spend money to get a setup done on a bad sounding costly guitar they deserve what they get.

[riffmeister]

So you spend even more money setting it up, but what happens if you don't like the way it plays after the set up? The answer is >>>> IT'S YOURS FOREVER! You own it and you can't return it.

 

 

Not where I buy guitars (Martin, Taylor included). Setup = adjusting the truss rod and saddle, neither of which are permanent modifications.

 

Modifying the frets? Well that's another strory. That's also not part of what I'd consider to be included in a standard setup.

 

.

[Harmonycat]

Really, one of the last resorts of someone who can't back up their claims is to resort to name calling. So far you have given no fact, only your biased opinion. Harmonycat has stated he has spoken with the Martin people. I believe much more readily, what he states rather than you. A couple of things you have against you. First and foremost is the fact you have come to these boards with one thing in mind, Defense of Zager, and this and Zager related threads are the only threads you've posted on. You have proven over and over again that you have an agenda. The second in your failure to back up your opinion with anything except biased conjecture.

Thank you for your kindness and understanding.

It appears that Nobility is indeed not a Birthright, it is something that anyone from any walk of life can have, particularly in the face of past adversity.

You...Kind Sir...have my undying respect, and only you on this forum will understand why.

Glenn

[Hudman]

This is not in defense of Zager but can we all agree that until you have your guitar "set up", "modified", "Zagerized" (whatever you want to call it) you will never know the true potential of that particular guitar? Everyone always asks why the big brands like Martin and Taylor dont set up their guitars straight from the factory with lower action? Chris Martin the owner of Martin Guitar Company said publically that they leave their guitars with higher action supposedly because many players don't like low action? This kind of baffled me. I don't know about you but I have never met a player who didn't want an easier playing guitar. So I decided to make a phone call to a buddy of mine who's dad owns several retail guitar shops and I asked his opinion as to why the big brands like Martin and Taylor don't come from the factory set up? It just so happened his dad was there when I called so he handed the phone over to him. Do you know what the old man told me? It kinda blew me away. He said it's because Martin knows that once a guitar has custom work it is no longer returnable. Martin leaves their action high on purpose because they realized that their return rates in stores (especially on their pricier guitars) plummeted once the stores began enforcing a policy that did not allow a guitar to be returned after it had custom work. Filing the nut, adjusting the saddle, sanding the frets, it really didn't matter. So if you pay several thousand dollars for an expensive guitar (or several hundred for a cheap guitar) there's a pretty good chance that you're going to want to have it set up because after all, you want to see that guitars true potential. So you spend even more money setting it up, but what happens if you don't like the way it plays after the set up? The answer is >>>> IT'S YOURS FOREVER! You own it and you can't return it. This store owner said that Martin has known this for decades and so do the large retail chains who sell their guitars. Other newer companies like Taylor followed suit leaving their action high because at the end of the year it's all about profits. Have you always wondered why you see slightly used guitars popping up on Ebay all the time.....now you know why.

 

Another new, misinformed Zager defender joins the forum.

 

Welcome aboard Zager fan.

 

PS - Martin and Taylor set up every guitar they sell to factory specs. Taylor tends to be pretty low straight out of the factory. Martin tends to be a bit higher. Why? Thats how many bluegrass players like their action.

[HalsJamin43]

Another new, misinformed Zager defender joins the forum. Welcome aboard Zager fan. PS - Martin and Taylor set up every guitar they sell to factory specs. Taylor tends to be pretty low straight out of the factory. Martin tends to be a bit higher. Why? Thats how many bluegrass players like their action.

So why is it that everyone I talk to in this forum has their guitars set up again if the set ups from the factory are so great? The fact is if you have your new guitar set up after purchasing it you cannot return it.

[Hudman]

 

So why is it that everyone I talk to in this forum has their guitars set up again if the set ups from the factory are so great? The fact is if you have your new guitar set up after purchasing it you cannot return it.

 

 

Common sense grasshopper:

 

One size does not fit all. Same thing with Zager's set up. Some people play too aggressively to use Zager's low action and would need a set up performed on their miracle Zager guitar.

 

Further more, you are silly if you think you can't return a guitar after setting it up. That is the dumbest thing said in this thread so far. Further proof that you and other Zager customers here don't know what a set up is.

[DEP]

Fretfiend, I almost didn't respond to this (and in a way wish I hadn't taken the time) since your at best ignorant and at worst a troll. Either way, there's little chance any of this will mean anything to you. However, on the off-chance there's anyone out there who might be persuaded that you actually know what your talking about, I thought (god help me) that it might be worthwhile to try and correct some of this mis-information.

QUOTE=FretFiend;26886635]This is not in defense of Zager but can we all agree that until you have your guitar "set up", "modified", "Zagerized" (whatever you want to call it) you will never know the true potential of that particular guitar?

First, it is an attempt to defend Zager. Please don't insult our intelligence. Second, if you think a setup is the solution to finding a guitars potential, then I'd say you don't understand much about what a setup is for. I agree though that Denny Zager seems to want us all to believe that he's invented the guitar holy grail setup (something that doesn't exist, imo). So, no, can't agree with that statement either.

Everyone always asks why the big brands like Martin and Taylor don't set up their guitars straight from the factory with lower action? Chris Martin the owner of Martin Guitar Company said publically that they leave their guitars with higher action supposedly because many players don't like low action?


No, what Chris Martin has said is that he expects each guitar to be set up to the individual players playing preferences.

This kind of baffled me. I don't know about you but I have never met a player who didn't want an easier playing guitar.

There is no universal set up that will work for everyone in all styles. I'm a fingerstyle blues player and my setup is pretty low. My setup absolutely wouldn't work for say, a blue-grass flatpicker. The guitar would be buzzing all over the place with my setup and his style. That player would want higher action, as would say someone playing rhythm in a band (but the preferences between those two would probably not be the same, although they might be similiar).

I do have a dread that I do some heavy strumming on, and the setup is somewhat higher than on my other guitar precisely for this reason.

So I decided to make a phone call to a buddy of mine who's dad owns several retail guitar shops and I asked his opinion as to why the big brands like Martin and Taylor don't come from the factory set up? .

MArtin and Taylors do come set up. Martin's (and others as well, for instance Gibson) are set up high because it's easier to lower action than to raise it. It works well for the player who likes high action (see bluegrass flatpicker comment above). Taylor's have a reputation for being set up fairly low right out of the box. Have you actually ever really played a Martin or a Taylor? Somehow I doubt it.


It just so happened his dad was there when I called so he handed the phone over to him. Do you know what the old man told me? It kinda blew me away. He said it's because Martin knows that once a guitar has custom work it is no longer returnable.

Martin leaves their action high on purpose because they realized that their return rates in stores (especially on their pricier guitars) plummeted once the stores began enforcing a policy that did not allow a guitar to be returned after it had custom work. Filing the nut, adjusting the saddle, sanding the frets, it really didn't matter. So if you pay several thousand dollars for an expensive guitar (or several hundred for a cheap guitar) there's a pretty good chance that you're going to want to have it set up because after all, you want to see that guitars true potential. So you spend even more money setting it up, but what happens if you don't like the way it plays after the set up? The answer is >>>> IT'S YOURS FOREVER! You own it and you can't return it.

This store owner said that Martin has known this for decades and so do the large retail chains who sell their guitars. Other newer companies like Taylor followed suit leaving their action high because at the end of the year it's all about profits. Have you always wondered why you see slightly used guitars popping up on Ebay all the time.....now you know why.


I'm sorry to say I think you made this up, because it's bs. Warranty's, whether for Martin or any other big maker, are not voided by a standard setup. Anyone who actually owns a retail music store knows this. Warranty's cover structural issues and defects. A setup, whether its a good one or not, has nothing to do with this. If you get your Martin setup at the store when you bought it, then go home and the bridge is lifting because it wasn't attached properly, or the finish is flaking off because it wasn't applied properly, you can bet your life Martin will take it back and fix it because it's still under warranty. However, if you decided to have your friendly neighborhood tech remove the popcicle brace to improve the tone on your brand new Martin and then the upper bout starts to cave, too bad, you've voided the warranty because you've modified the structure of the guitar.

If you have your guitar setup and you don't like it, the fault's not Martin's but whoever did the set up. Go find someone who knows what they're doing. Notice if you will that structural changes are not the same as a setup and a setup absolutely does not void the warranty. Show me anything in Martin's literature (or Taylor or Gibson or any other manufacturer) that says if you get a setup you can't return the guitar for any reason and I'll eat my hat. Gotta show the evidence though.

I also want to mention that a normal setup is not what's meant by "custom work". Also, a normal setup doesn't include "sanding the frets". If for some reason this needs to be done (i.e., frets were installed uneven) it needs to be done by an authorized service tech, not by you or the guy down the street, which would likely void the warranty.

A good set-up should be done to any new guitar (and periodically throughout its life), to, among other things (such as changes due to different strings, humidity, etc.) address its playability for your style, not as some solution to reaching the guitar's potential. That's not what it's for.

If you buy a guitar that doesn't grab you in the store, regardless of how its setup, the setup isn't going to cure that and its foolish imo to depend on a setup to make it all better. If you bought a guitar and expected a setup to make it sound better and were disappointed, I wouldn't blame the store owner for not taking it back. Whether he does or not, it has nothing to do with Martin.

Now that I've gone to all this trouble, I really do regret it. There's too much in your post that's wrong, and not enough time to address it all (I know there's some things I left out). I'm beginning to see why some people respond to this stuff with :blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:

[daklander]

So why is it that everyone I talk to in this forum has their guitars set up again if the set ups from the factory are so great? The fact is if you have your new guitar set up after purchasing it you cannot return it.

 

 

No one said the factory setups are great, they're set up, for the most part, so anyone who purchase a guitar can have it adjusted as they wish.

The fact is, most people have a setup that they desire and feel fits their playing style the best. It is much easier to lower a saddle or the string grooves to the desired height or depth, as the case may be, than to raise them. Raising the action if it's too low entails either shimming or replacing the saddle and nut and of the two, replacement is preferred to maintain proper contact of the saddle to the bridge and the nut to the neck.

 

The claim was that Zager guitars are set up lower than normal to make them easier to play. Not so and the measurements on Maximux's ZAD prove it. They are set to what is considered pretty much average. I have a Yamaha FG411S that has never been adjusted because, from the factory, it came almost identical to that ZAD, and that happens to be where I prefer my setting to be.

 

Now, Maximum has done us the courtesy of measuring and photo'ing his ZAD. How about you. I've posted my measurements on a non-Zagerized, "String Science" adjusted guitar and they are virtually identical to Max's ZAD. Others have also posted theirs. You gonna put your money where your mouth is?

[DEP]

Somebody please show me something, anything, in Martin's literature (or Taylor or Gibson for that matter), or on their website, or anywhere, that says you can't return a guitar after it's been set up. That is, imo, so not true. Please, let's see it. No hearsay, no I talked to my friends dad the store owner, and he said ..... Really, where did you get this information? I want to read it for myself.

 

Now, modifying the guitar by sanding down the frets or shaving the braces, would be another matter. But then, that's not a part of a normal setup.

[DEP]

daklander, I've been reading your posts on this thread and I have to say I admire your patience, not to mention your ability to remain civil. You are a gentleman.

[riffmeister]

The fact is if you have your new guitar set up after purchasing it you cannot return it.

 

 

Did you not see my post above?

 

.

[Harmonycat]

Sorry...you are the liar my friend. Martin was shipping Sigmas directly from their factory in Nazareth up until 2007. Talk to the company, talk to any Martin rep, talk to any Martin Sigma dealer and they will inform you that you are incorrect. You're really showing your stupidity at this point.

There it is...Friend and Liar, all in the same sentence. Lest we forget stupidity.

Personal attacks at this point.

This is not a good idea to partake of on this particular website.

The good people of this Forum are kindred spirits with a very long memory for this sort of thing.

It is a behaviour not looked upon as favorable. The common thought surrounding it from the group is who will be next.

It appears that you are very defensive in your responses to factual information that does not agree with your own.

It also appears that you do not consider shifts in Paradigms as part of an education, an steadfastly hold to your perceived truths.

This thinking is predominant among members of the "Flat Earth Society".

Resorting to slurs on another's personal character is both childish and immature. Quite often those who do not work and play well with others resort to violence and other offensive tactics when they feel that their credibility is threatened. "Social Sandbox"...is something that certain people do not do well at.

Perhaps you should reflect on your intraspective side, in consideration of your reactions to things that you do not agree with.

There are many here on this Forum who have many different backgrounds and perspectives.

You seem to jump to conclusions regarding another's views as being some kind of persoanl attack.

I have not attacked your character in any way shape or form....only the validity of the information that you present.

Perhaps you feel threatened regarding your guitar purchases in view of the perceptions of knowledgable guitarists on this Forum, since many are in disagreement with the value of that purchase.

[Charlotte941]

There it is...Friend and Liar, all in the same sentence. Lest we forget stupidity. I have not attacked your character in any way shape or form....only the validity of the information that you present. .

 

 

I apologize for attacking your character in any way Cat but but when I see someone spewing lies missinforming the public I shoot straight and call it like I see it.

[daklander]

I apologize for attacking your character in any way Cat but but when I see someone spewing lies missinforming the public I shoot straight and call it like I see it.

Hmmm, why then aren't you lambasting the Zager site and all the misinformation there?

[Harmonycat]

I apologize for attacking your character in any way Cat but but when I see someone spewing lies missinforming the public I shoot straight and call it like I see it.

 

 

On one hand you apologize for an attack on my character and on the other hand...I am judged and convicted as one who spews lies. All of which is based on information that is hearsay, and at best can be described as your version of the truth.

 

The hypocrisy of your stand has already been pointed out by another Formite. You defend Denny Zager simply because it suits you. How convenient that must be when it comes to having anything go your way.

 

I guess you ladel out this straight shooting Justice of yours as you see fit, since you openly admit that you call them like you see them.

 

Somehow, I do not think that you will make a whole lot of Friends here, since I am quite sure that People are wary of those who sit in Judgement of others.

 

I hope that you are never put in a situation where you are Judged, since I am sure that you will find it very distasteful.

 

This is all adding up to some very interesting insights into your character.

 

It paints a very interesting picture of who you are as newcomer.

 

Perhaps you might consider choosing your words a little more carefully, before you further slander anyone else on this forum.

[Pylot]

Sorry to bring this thread to the top again, but I'm really curious...somewhere in the begining of this thread, Maximum said he was going to do some measurements to check the set up and action of his guitar. Did he ever post the results? If so, could someone steer me to them? Thanks.

[Gary Palmer]

Sorry to bring this thread to the top again, but I'm really curious...somewhere in the begining of this thread, Maximum said he was going to do some measurements to check the set up and action of his guitar. Did he ever post the results? If so, could someone steer me to them? Thanks.

 

 

Max posted the measurements in his other thread "Zager - the Guitar not ethics thread".

[AugTPD]

Well.................

 

Just checked Zager's site again and he is no longer advertising the Sigma guitars as "Martin DM" acoustics. I wonder if the email I sent to Martin led to a little pressure to change things or face some legal action????

 

However, he is still listing them under Martin as a category and stating "The #1 acoustic guitar maker in the world. Denny wanted the highest quality guitars for his EZ-Play

[ZedAxis]

I'm new here and came across this battle of opinions, so I thought I would comment. I work with wood and laminates as a hobby. This is simply to help the guy or gal who is starting out and originally asked about "what do you think about.."

Laminated Wood is NOT the same as HPL. HPL is a LAMINATE that is made from plastic resins to provide a look, feel, and texture of various materials, in the case of guitars they look and feel like wood. There are cheap laminates and expensive ones. Laminated wood is really thin layers of wood or a ply of wood stacked and bonded with an adhesive, like ply wood. Thin laminates were used originally for their bending and moulding capability, as you need for the sides of an acoustic guitar. Laminated wood and HPL can not change their tonal qualities unless you change their properties or you punch a hole through them.

Solid wood is porous and change (open up) over time and can enrich the sound, only the unfinished side of the wood.

All wood guitars can be all solid wood (have a more tendency to separate with age), ALL wood (solid top, plywood back and sides) or HYBRID Wood top and plastic (HPL) sides.

I have owned and have many guitars, Martins, Alvarez Yairi, Gibsons, Fenders, Yahamas, and a Zager. I also have some so old and refinished there is no name, I have rebuilt them and they sound great. I have a Martin that is HPL and it sounds like it, although I like the sound it is NOT my favorite, great for camping and vacationing. I have a Martin that is ALL wood and it sounds great as well as the AY, Yahama, etc. I have a Zager ZAD80CE that has a cedar top and plywood sides that have a laminate external finish. The Zager is the easiest to play of all these guitars and the Martin LX1 is a close second. The Zager has a great sound and has quality workmanship, construction and components. It is a great guitar to compose on and play for many hours. To record, I choose a guitar for the sound characteristics I like for that song.

Recently I played a Samick D 8 that is very close to the Zager Zad80CE. I assume they are made in the same factory. Samick is the world's largest guitar and piano manufacturer. However I will say the workmanship, wood selection, neck, fretboard, etc are better on the Zager. Are they $200 to $400 better? That is a personal opinion. I can say with no doubt the Zager is much much easier to play, the Samick is a stock set-up. I am sure Zager has their own spec for their guitars and may be at a higher level than the standard Samick's. This is very common for contract OEM manufacturers. My Zager is almost 4 years old, I bought it used, and sounds better than the Samick, but the Samick with age may sound the same. So if you want to go through all the Samick's in the store you may be able to get one close to the Zager quality and then get it professionally set up.

My suggestion, play as many guitars as you can and play the same song so you can truly benchmark how they sound, their action, and choose the one you want (the one you do not want to put down). If there is one you want and can't play, find out if they have a 100% return policy and try it, you have nothing to loose except time. Like any product you can pay for a name, pay for hype, pay for adver-teazing, etc.. The price you pay is for your personal satisfaction and no one else's.

[Crab_Cake]

wow . . . thats a bump and a half.