Members Bernie P. Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 I just dont get the argument against someone having a large collection of guns,certain bullet types,or military style guns.Contrary to hollywoods routine depiction nobody and I mean NOBODY can shoot more than one gun at a time with any degree of accuracy.Blazing away like Arnold S. with an M16 in one hand and a 12 gauge in the other nailing everyone in sight is absurd.The recoil from such guns would break both of your wrist's if you were stupid enough to try.As such does it matter if someone owns one gun or a hundred?No.The infamous "Cop Killer bullets" -Black Talons etc,nonsense plastered all over the media awhile back is equally absurd.Those rounds were designed for hunting large game with heavy muscle/bone.Fact is just about all cartridges ever designed for hunting big game will easily penetrate bullet proof vests used by law enforcement.The military style argument doesnt hold water either.Again the anti's in government used their willing allies in the media to strike fear into the public only to broaden gun restrictions through incrementalism.These guns fire the same ammo the same way as more conventional looking guns.They are not designed to be killing machines.They are designed to withstand regular use and function reliably in harsh environments-nothing more.Crime statistics prove the use of such guns is in reality far less than 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted June 30, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well, you might be right, totamus, but Wiki says you have loads of gun related crimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_StatesAlso, I've noticed that the US classifies "violent crime" as: murder, rape, robbery and aggraveated assault, whereas the UK also includes domestic violence, "snatch theft" etc which perhaps ups the UK figures. The use of a gun in crime in the UK occurs in less than 1% of incidents. The statistics I quoted are simply murder per capita. It is not possible to tweak or interpret that. The statistic does NOT represent murders with guns, just murders. It is interesting that the combined murder/suicide rates are nearly identical though. I do agree that US society is sick and needs to heal. We dont seem to be able to define ourselves and tell our children what is right, and what is wrong. Our belief that everything is relative and there is no real right or wrong has created a society that stands for nothing. But gun ownership by law abiding citizens is not the cause of our sick society. It is, IMO, just a way to rally those who are easily led and to divert attention from the real issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 The military style argument doesnt hold water either.Again the anti's in government used their willing allies in the media to strike fear into the public only to broaden gun restrictions through incrementalism.These guns fire the same ammo the same way as more conventional looking guns.They are not designed to be killing machines.They are designed to withstand regular use and function reliably in harsh environments-nothing more.Crime statistics prove the use of such guns is in reality far less than 1%. I don't know Bernie, I think a whack job, bent on infamy, could cause one helluva lot more harm with a 30 round clip (or several) in a semi-auto than he could with my Remington BDL bolt action and 4 round magazine. Same applies to my Remington 742 semi-auto. I think most with knowledge would agree that an assault rifle is more effective at killing multiple targets in short order, than most hunting rifles or shotguns. At close range, the comparison could also include a 16 round mag. in a 9mm. If I have any objection to the "need" for particular weapons, it is based on this concern...not the intimidating appearance of the "black gun" which I think so many base judgment on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bernie P. Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 Yes I agree in close,crowded quarters semi's or anything other than a bolt or single shot can do real harm.On the other hand when it comes to guns that have detachable magazines one could carry quite a few loaded,low capacity mags and quickly reload so I cant say as I see where limiting their capacity would have any effect one way or the other.Again it all comes around to law abiding citizens vs criminals.They're going to ignore the laws and aquire what they want be it high capacity mags or full autos for that matter.The only hope for the good guys is to be on equal or at least near equal ground to defend themselves and fight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members masterbuilt Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 The statistics I quoted are simply murder per capita. It is not possible to tweak or interpret that. The statistic does NOT represent murders with guns, just murders. It is interesting that the combined murder/suicide rates are nearly identical though.I do agree that US society is sick and needs to heal. We dont seem to be able to define ourselves and tell our children what is right, and what is wrong. Our belief that everything is relative and there is no real right or wrong has created a society that stands for nothing. But gun ownership by law abiding citizens is not the cause of our sick society. It is, IMO, just a way to rally those who are easily led and to divert attention from the real issues. Totamus, I am in your corner on this, but, the "Region of the Americas" includes Mexican cartels and that violence as well as the USA. So, those statistics are skewed, anyway. My brother-in-law is a criminal lawyer fighting three separate cases of police brutality in a city that I cannot mention here, but, no, it is not Columbus. In our discussions about crime statistics, there are lots of bogus claims in the media that do not agree with the FBI stats on the subject due to media bias. I think we are in agreement on that. I'd love to see Europe's genuine statistics. Teen suicide in Japan is very high due to family expectations and the pressure to be a top performer. Americans are a lot more optimistic than our Asian or European counterparts, but, we do have a lot of room to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members valentsgrif Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 As I said earlier, forget about the statistics of one country vs. the US, and all that. Defensive uses of firearms are under-reported; criminal uses of guns are over reported and sensationalized, and never the reality shall meet. Scary hi capacity semi automatics have no "use"? Think again. Remember the lovely little riots after the Rodney King decision in LA? I'll always remember the news photo of a Korean store owner standing on the roof of his building along with his brother. Both held AR15's rifles while the large scale looting, assaults and firebombing were proceeding around them. No one touched their shop. Gun ownership as a Civil Right is not about hunting or target shooting. It's about anything from a battered woman using a .22 derringer to turn away the protective order ignoring abuser, up through armed resistance to full scale riot, insurrection and invasion. Life may be good and comfy right now, but in the future, the thread of civilization may be thinner than you realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members masterbuilt Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 As I said earlier, forget about the statistics of one country vs. the US, and all that. Defensive uses of firearms are under-reported; criminal uses of guns are over reported and sensationalized, and never the reality shall meet. Scary hi capacity semi automatics have no "use"? Think again.Remember the lovely little riots after the Rodney King decision in LA? I'll always remember the news photo of a Korean store owner standing on the roof of his building along with his brother. Both held AR15's rifles while the large scale looting, assaults and firebombing were proceeding around them. No one touched their shop. Gun ownership as a Civil Right is not about hunting or target shooting. It's about anything from a battered woman using a .22 derringer to turn away the protective order ignoring abuser, up through armed resistance to full scale riot, insurrection and invasion. Life may be good and comfy right now, but in the future, the thread of civilization may be thinner than you realize. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 Yes I agree in close,crowded quarters semi's or anything other than a bolt or single shot can do real harm.On the other hand when it comes to guns that have detachable magazines one could carry quite a few loaded,low capacity mags and quickly reload so I cant say as I see where limiting their capacity would have any effect one way or the other.Again it all comes around to law abiding citizens vs criminals.They're going to ignore the laws and aquire what they want be it high capacity mags or full autos for that matter.The only hope for the good guys is to be on equal or at least near equal ground to defend themselves and fight back. I would prefer the time spent changing 4 round magazines as a chance to escape or overpower/shoot the bad guy. I can't argue with wanting as much firepower as the bad guys---that's why cops rarely carry revolvers anymore. On the other hand, the more privately owned assault rifles, the more for the bad guys to steal and use against the good guys. Despite all this, I have a hard time believing my 12 gauge pump and revolver loaded with Fed. Hydra-Shok rounds won't be enough if I ever have to legally use lethal force in my home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HoldingZero Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 This discussion has been great. I own several guns and would use one to protect me and/or mine if an extreme situation called for it. However, this thread is creating a vacuum in the rest of the forum and it's getting a little slow out there. So can we all try to refocus....just a little? [ATTACH]268660[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crab_Cake Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 No way, this is the most excitement we have had since breedlover went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 No Way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 I know!! What was the name of that 1960's Western movie where the guy had the rifle that popped out of the guitar? There ya' go! On topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crab_Cake Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 I know!! What was the name of that 1960's Western movie where the guy had the rifle that popped out of the guitar? There ya' go! On topic! Not the 1960s but just as cool El Mariachi[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] The sequel Desperado (any movie where they fire rockets out of guitar cases is alright with me)[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] And the coup de gras, the third film in the series and my favorite. Once upon a time in mexico[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] IF you have not seen all three of these movies you are missing out. Its basically about this mariachi who has a guitar case containing flame throwers, rocket launchers, and all the guns you could want. He proceeds to tear apart mexico. In the top 10 of coolest movies ever made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 No way, this is the most excitement we have had since breedlover went away. I wish he'd come back and post...I miss that stuff even if he was nuttier than squirrel crap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HoldingZero Posted June 30, 2008 Members Share Posted June 30, 2008 I know!! What was the name of that 1960's Western movie where the guy had the rifle that popped out of the guitar? There ya' go! On topic! The Fastest Guitar Alive - Starring Roy Orbison http://www.stomptokyo.com/badmoviereport/reviews/F/fastestguitar.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members masterbuilt Posted July 1, 2008 Members Share Posted July 1, 2008 "IF you have not seen all three of these movies you are missing out. Its basically about this mariachi who has a guitar case containing flame throwers, rocket launchers, and all the guns you could want." He proceeds to tear apart mexico." Sounds like "Once Upon A Time in Mexico" with Antonia Banderas In the top 10 of coolest movies ever made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crab_Cake Posted July 1, 2008 Members Share Posted July 1, 2008 "IF you have not seen all three of these movies you are missing out. Its basically about this mariachi who has a guitar case containing flame throwers, rocket launchers, and all the guns you could want." He proceeds to tear apart mexico." Sounds like "Once Upon A Time in Mexico" with Antonia Banderas In the top 10 of coolest movies ever made that is what i said El Mariachi, Desperado, and Once upon a time in Mexico are a trilogy of movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members masterbuilt Posted July 1, 2008 Members Share Posted July 1, 2008 How about that, I didn't know about the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TN.Frank Posted July 1, 2008 Members Share Posted July 1, 2008 I"m not as "into" em' as I use to be. I've owned about everything over my lifetime, and I guess I just got tired of putting huge amounts of cash into something then selling it as a huge loss. I've had 7 or more AK's, 10 or more SKS's, a semi-auto Uzi, Thompson, Mini-14, tons of different handguns, lots of shotguns but now I'm down to 3. A Taurus 605, 357Mag snub for my CCW pistol, a Mossberg 500a pump for hunting and a single shot I got when dad died. I'm more into my car and playing the mandolin nowdays. Not to say if I hit the lotto I'd not buy a few firearms that I've been wanting but I just don't get the time or hav the money to hunt and shoot like I use too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kimona Posted July 1, 2008 Members Share Posted July 1, 2008 I am opposed to civilian ownership of any gun whatsoever. I also support much stiffer punishment for crime, including the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted July 5, 2008 Members Share Posted July 5, 2008 If I posted this thought before, pardon me. I'm getting a Not Signed In message. I like old service firearms. Like the utility of design, the ergonomics, the historical significance. Same with musical instruments. The designs recquire machining to fine tolerances. Many tools, lubricants and cleaners are great for both. I have had to use a firearm in self defense. No shots fired. Weapon did not leave the holster. Yet, I would have been severely injured or killed without it. Do not question the usefulness of any tool to the person who needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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