OT - Supreme Court Ruling - Do you Have Guns?

[daklander]

 

For home defense nothing beats a sawed off shotgun filled with rock salt or bean bags. A very effective and cheap non lethal alternative. Pepper spray is also a great way to protect yourself. If you have never seen the effects of it all I can say is that it is brutal.

 

 

Sawed off Shotguns are as far as I know, illegal though short barreled shot guns are available.

 

In close quarters, like your home, rock salt or bean bags can be extremely lethal. If you don't believe that, take a short barrel shotgun to a shooting range and fire at targets that would be in a normal in home range, about 8' to 10' with your rock salt or bean bag load. You could use a melon as a target, large can of tomato juice, a block of ice or other items and they will give you an idea..

 

It's also been shown many times that pepper spray often does not work.

[ermghoti II]

 

Pepper spray is also a great way to protect yourself. If you have never seen the effects of it all I can say is that it is brutal.

 

 

If you have never seen people fight through pepper spray, or get hit with it often enough that it doesn't phase them, then you don't know anything about real world defense. Of course, that imbecile comment about bean bags has already proven that.

 

Stop posting before you get somebody killed. This is not some dumbass tubes vrs modeler argument, this is the real world.

[Crab_Cake]

 

Hollow point bullets were designed to limit penetration, and to expend energy in the target. Conventional bullets will pass through an aggressor, and, in many cases, interior walls. Since firearms are only used in the direst of circumstances, and since poking a couple of holes in an enraged, panicked, insane or drugged attacker has been repeatedly proven ineffective in thousands of case dating back over a hundred years (google "moros"), a defender needs every conceivable advantage. A round that will penetrate deep enough to disrupt the central nervous system and sever large arteries, and deliver hydrostatic shock to the internal organs has consistently been shown to be the most effective way to stop an attacker that will not stop himself. If you fail to stop your intruder, you are dead, so no, you wouldn't be able to live with yourself afterward. You have posted this twice, so I guess you're serious. Where did you get this garbage? If you have never seen people fight through pepper spray, or get hit with it often enough that it doesn't phase them, then you don't know anything about real world defense. Of course, that imbecile comment about bean bags has already proven that. Stop posting before you get somebody killed. This is not some dumbass tubes vrs modeler argument, this is the real world.

 

 

Sorry that I am not into killing.

 

Death is not just my thing. If your conscience is at peace with taking a persons life then good for you. IMHO you are mentally ill and should seek help.

 

You are the idiot if you don't think that non lethal or less than lethal alternatives don't work. Also to tell you the truth I think that a home invasion from some dude high on PCP is one of the few things you need to worry yourself with. You are probably much more likely to die taking a crap or getting the wrong prescription at the pharmacy and dying from an OD.

 

I know that you love your guns, good for you, I have a few firearms myself. Though I think that keeping a .44 mag handgun under your pillow is the hight of retardation. Especially if there are any children in the house.

 

You don't think that rock salt or a bean bag gun doesn't work? Wow now who seems like the idiot. Have you ever seen one of these fired? They can do terrific damage and chances are the perp might just get to live and face real justice in a courtroom.

 

 

Also the first line of defense is a good dead bolt and locks on the windows. A dog and motion activated lights on the front porch are also great deterrents for any invasion.

 

I have stated my views, I don't believe in wars or killing in any way, shape, or form. I know that not many agree with me. Saying that war or capital punishment are grounded in morality.

 

Now you can go ahead and tell me that I am idiot for not keeping a .44 mag handgun under my pillow or an assault rifle etc.

 

(sorry for this being the second post that is getting this thread riled up)

[daklander]

Um, keep it civil or keep it to yourself.

[ermghoti II]

Meh. I'll leave CC to mercifully cut people in half with his sawed-off ".12 gauge" full of rock salt, when he's not making ad hominem attacks on people who don't learn about self defense from watching Starsky and Hutch.

 

The rest of you should probably take your advice from somebody else.

[totamus]

before this goes any further, please allow me to moderate. CC is 21 and has some experience, but not a lot. I think the sentiment is noble CC, but I do disagree with your assertions. Nobody wants to kill.

 

A shotgun load of nearly anything at close range is quite lethal. Ermghoti II is correct. I dont think anyone faults you on your goal.

 

I also dont think anyone here relishes the thought of actually using deadly force.

 

Being prepared may seem cold. If you are going to use deadly force, it needs to be effective. Hollow points are effective in stopping power. I pray I never need to use weapon to stop an intruder. If I do, I want the shot to be effective and immediate. My handguns are loaded with hollow points.

 

The thought of using non-lethal force is attractive and seems more humane and civilized. But at the end of the day the decision of the amount and type of force to use in defending your home and family is a trade off between the intruders safety/life and the safety/life of you and your family.

 

This is how unfair characterizations are promulgated. Lethal force doesnt mean that the person using it has no concern for human life or safety. The person using lethal force is very concerned about human life, but makes a clear distinction that anyone who breaks into a household with the intent of inflicting harm is the one who has made a life altering decision. From that point, it is a matter of having the resolve to ensure that the intruder is stopped - not just slowed down or angered.

 

Now for the moderation. Personal attacks are not typical of this forum. If you two disagree, that is your right. Accept that not everyone views the world as you do and move on. State your case to the best of your ability then agree to disagree.

[Samilyn]

My soon-to-be-ex is a typical Dixie Gun Nut. "Mo gun, mo happy." The contents of one of my closets could easily last him through WW-III.

 

Personally, I am not opposed to gun ownership and I will not hesitate to use a firearm in self defense. I'm seldom without my trusty 9mm, though on dressier occasions, my .25 thigh weapon must suffice. (Nice one, that little garter gun, and easy to get to.)

 

I have been well trained in the use of all my weapons, both long and short guns, and am quite proficient.

 

If I point a weapon, I have every intention of using it to maximal effect. My weapon is not something I take lightly. It is not to scare or threaten someone with. It is not a toy. it is not something to show off with. It is a tool with which to kill.

 

If it boils down to my life or some scumbag who intends to deprive me of it, I'll do whatever it takes to take him/her out first. Same holds for my loved ones. I will protect them as I would myself.

[totamus]

Its my favorite lady. Havent seen you around much Sami. Come on up to Mountain View AR for some jamming! I was pretty sure that you were soon to have an ex by reading between the lines of your earlier posts. Marriage hasn't worked well for me either, but I am very happy in my current relationship.

 

Dont be a stranger - we love ya!

[Crab_Cake]

I am sorry if I offended you ermghoti II but I do strongly believe in not harming others.

 

I really did not give any bad advice, as yes at close range bean bag or rock salt is most definitely lethal, though it is slightly less lethal then regular shot.

 

Like I said before for 99% of us this will never be a problem. The thing is getting in a car and dying is thousands of times more likely than being killed by any home intruder.

 

When there is an intruder we hear about it on the news so it seems like a larger problem than it is. Out where I live, which is basically mountains, I don't have any fear of an intruder. I am more afraid of sasquatch, literally that thing scares the hell out of me.

 

If I lived in Detroit my fears might be different. So I can definitely see where you are coming from.

 

Though what I said is still sound, there is no problem with trying to use less than lethal tech.

 

Also a deadbolt, dog, and motion activated porch lights have stopped more crime than any amount of guns have.

 

I do have some experience, I am a decent marksman and have been using firearms since an early age. My biggest concern is firearm ignorance, the reckless use of guns has killed quite a few people, a lot of them children.

 

Some idiot pointing his gun at his buddy and pulling the trigger thinking that it was not loaded has killed a lot of people. That is why I think firearm training is necessary. Even our Vice President, Dick Cheney shot his friend on accident.

 

I don't think any of my points were invalid, and I can see where you are coming from if you live in a high crime area. But realistically it is very unlikely that you will ever have to face a home intruder.

 

So keep your guns, and be safe. And if you haven't done so please take a hunters training course. It's easy and you learn a lot.

[Samilyn]

Its my favorite lady. Havent seen you around much Sami. Come on up to Mountain View AR for some jamming! I was pretty sure that you were soon to have an ex by reading between the lines of your earlier posts. Marriage hasn't worked well for me either, but I am very happy in my current relationship. Dont be a stranger - we love ya!

 

Good to see you, too, M'dear.

 

I'd love to head up to AR for some jamming, but right now I'm busting butt work-wise to get up enough $$ to relocate with a lot of miles between me and this place. Hopefully it'll be soon.

 

Actually, I scoped out AR as a prospective place to live, but I'd have to jump through too many licensing hoops in order to work in that state.

 

Glad to hear things are well with you and that you're happy. Once I get settled in a new place, I'll try to squeeze in some traveling for a meet 'n greet 'n pickin' party.

 

I'll try not to be such a stranger here at AG, but my present workload is about as heavy as it gets - running about 80 hrs per week right now, taking only Sunday evening off for a few beers, a visit to AG, and maybe a little pickin' before bedtime.

 

Love y'all.

 

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[daklander]

 

.... as yes at close range bean bag or rock salt is most definitely lethal, though it is slightly less lethal then regular shot.

 

 

C-C, lethal is lethal. There is no in between and there are no degrees of lethal.

 

Addressing your other remark about close range. What else is there in an average home?

I don't know about you but in my SoCal home it's about 22' from my front door to the back wall, in my particular layout, 2 story 1800 sf fairly open floor plan. There is nothing in my home that could be considered anything except short range.

[daklander]

Sami. Luv ya girl. It's a treat to see you around again. I kinda figured {censored} was happening.

All my best to you. I'd suggest SoCal but the economy here is severely in the toilet and I don't see a turn around for at least a year.

[ermghoti II]

 

I am sorry if I offended you ermghoti II but I do strongly believe in not harming others. I really did not give any bad advice, as yes at close range bean bag or rock salt is most definitely lethal, though it is slightly less lethal then regular shot. Like I said before for 99% of us this will never be a problem. The thing is getting in a car and dying is thousands of times more likely than being killed by any home intruder. When there is an intruder we hear about it on the news so it seems like a larger problem than it is. Out where I live, which is basically mountains, I don't have any fear of an intruder. I am more afraid of sasquatch, literally that thing scares the hell out of me. If I lived in Detroit my fears might be different. So I can definitely see where you are coming from. Though what I said is still sound, there is no problem with trying to use less than lethal tech. Also a deadbolt, dog, and motion activated porch lights have stopped more crime than any amount of guns have. I do have some experience, I am a decent marksman and have been using firearms since an early age. My biggest concern is firearm ignorance, the reckless use of guns has killed quite a few people, a lot of them children. Some idiot pointing his gun at his buddy and pulling the trigger thinking that it was not loaded has killed a lot of people. That is why I think firearm training is necessary. Even our Vice President, Dick Cheney shot his friend on accident. I don't think any of my points were invalid, and I can see where you are coming from if you live in a high crime area. But realistically it is very unlikely that you will ever have to face a home intruder. So keep your guns, and be safe. And if you haven't done so please take a hunters training course. It's easy and you learn a lot.

 

 

I'm not offended.

 

I agree about the dog.

 

I don't hunt, but I have taken a good half-dozen defensive shooting courses. I've helped some LE friends of mine bone up for their marksmanship refreshers.

 

If you are not prepared to kill an attacker who is trying to kill you, a firearm is the wrong choice, regardless of what it is loaded with. If the attacker's actions are not sufficiently serious to warrant a lethal response, a firearm is the wrong (and, generally, criminal) choice.

 

The FBI's Crime Victimization Survey shows that defending against a violent attack with a firearm doubles your chance of survival vrs the second best option, which is active compliance. Less lethal weapons are a worse choice, while unarmed defense, passive resistance, and the use of bludgeons, knives and the like, are terrible, multiplying the chance of death.

 

True story: I have a CCW in Massachusetts. Until I took a job that forbade concealed carry, I had a pistol on my person every day for about eight years. One day, in Boston, my dingbat friend got us pretty lost trying to meet one of her dingbat friends. This being in olden times, we stopped at a payphone. As she rummaged in her purse, making sure she had change before she left the car, I saw a man walking in an odd manner, in my passenger-side mirror. He had his right arm extended rigidly behind his thigh, twisting his torso with each step to keep his hand completely out of view with each step. He was headed from behind and to the right of the car, headed directly towards the front passenger door. As was my custom, I had a .40 service auto holstered on my right hip, with my shirt tucked under the holster, so that it was concealed only because I wore it far back enough that it was between me and the seat. At the time, I was spending about 3-500 rounds a week in practice, but I think it was shortly after I had stopped my twice-yearly defensive shooting courses, although I still shot a round of plates or pins on occasion.

 

By the time I saw him, he was even with the rear bumper of the car.

 

What happened next?

[ermghoti II]

 

close range

 

 

Speaking of which...

 

Another quiz (for anybody, not singling you out, dak): what is the average range of a shooting?

 

Bonus round: what is the rate of accuracy in the field for police officers?

[Samilyn]

Sami. Luv ya girl. It's a treat to see you around again. I kinda figured {censored} was happening. All my best to you. I'd suggest SoCal but the economy here is severely in the toilet and I don't see a turn around for at least a year.

 

Hey, Dak....

 

Good to see ya and luv ya, too. Yeah, {censored} happening by the bucket-full, but will soon be at an end and I'll settle down again soon. Nice to touch base here where sanity reigns, (at least most of the time.)

 

I grew up in SoCal, San Fernando Valley, to be exact. Great place to go through puberty, raise hell, street race, and surf. But SoCal ain't the place for yours truly anymore.

 

Dang...they don't even have the carousel at Santa Monica Pier anymore. I remember being 16 years old, soused to the gills on beer, and riding that carousel in my birthday suit just before closing time along with a couple of equally drunk, equally zany, equally naked friends. Those were some crazy times back then.

[totamus]

I would guess less than 10'

[ermghoti II]

You're in the ballpark. Anybody else?

[daklander]

 

Speaking of which... Another quiz (for anybody, not singling you out, dak): what is the average range of a shooting? Bonus round: what is the rate of accuracy in the field for police officers?

 

 

Seems to me like it's about 8' and the accuracy is well under 50%

[ermghoti II]

I've heard 6', so 8' is pretty close. Accuracy used to be 50%, but since the police went to high capacity autos, it's closer to 1/3. I read somebody who had quipped that there the same number of hits in a six shot .38 as there are in a 17-shot 9mm.

[Samilyn]

Shooting range, I'd say within 5' to 7' or less, possibly body-to-body, zero range. I'm thinking very close range here, for most assaults.

 

As for accuracy in the field, that's a tough call. A lot depends on the weapon itself and the strength of the officer.

 

I'm pretty decent at about 10-15 yards with a 4"-6" .38 or my 9mm, but with my .25 pea-shooter-garter gun, I can't hit the broad side of a barn at over 10 feet.

 

And I can't handle the big ones. A .44 is just too heavy, so my accuracy is, pardon the pun, shot to hell and gone.

[totamus]

Not sure what you mean by accuracy - since in the field means not target, I am assuming it means percentage of rounds hitting a body anywhere. I would guess 25%

[Samilyn]

 

Not sure what you mean by accuracy - since in the field means not target, I am assuming it means percentage of rounds hitting a body anywhere. I would guess 25%

 

 

Given that criteria, I would narrow it to a torso shot, "stop the perp" type shot, and would agree with the 25% accuracy or less. One thing to be standing in front of a paper target on the range in stable shooting stance, entirely another to be in a realtime situation where you're moving around and some scumbag is shooting back.

[ermghoti II]

I get about 30%-ish.

 

Next time somebody asks you how to lie with a statistic:

 

"The average number of bullets fired by each officer involved in a shooting remained about the same over those 11 years even with a switch to guns that hold more bullets

[Hudman]

IMO, the "home defense" argument is an excuse to sell and buy more guns.

 

I live in Michigan in the Detroit area. Hunting is BIG here. Most of my relatives, friends and co-workers own multiple guns. As stated previously, I don't personally know anyone that had to use their guns to defend their homes.

[Simon76]

Samilyn, find someone that has an HK4 and try it.

It's a small frame 32acp semi auto that is very accurate even out at longer distances. I bet you would fall in love with how well you can shoot with it. I gave one to my daughter. It's her favorite and she's shot lots of different weapons. I have yet to meet an HK I didn't like.