OT - Supreme Court Ruling - Do you Have Guns?

[Samilyn]

 

I've heard 6', so 8' is pretty close. Accuracy used to be 50%, but since the police went to high capacity autos, it's closer to 1/3. I read somebody who had quipped that there the same number of hits in a six shot .38 as there are in a 17-shot 9mm.

 

 

LMAO.

 

That's probably pretty accurate than most people realize. I think it has to do with the weight and balance of the weapon. Though I'm used to the 9mm and handle it well, I tend to actually do better with a gorgeous Colt "show gun" revolver owned by a friend of mine.

[Samilyn]

 

Samilyn, find someone that has an HK4 and try it. It's a small frame 32acp semi auto that is very accurate even out at longer distances. I bet you would fall in love with how well you can shoot with it. I gave one to my daughter. It's her favorite and she's shot lots of different weapons. I have yet to meet an HK I didn't like.

 

 

Thanks for the tip, Simon. I've heard good things about HKs, but haven't fired one. Next time I visit the range, I'll ask the resident gunsmith if he's got one I can try.

[totamus]

for small frame, I love my .380 CZ. a work of art and very high workmanship. My favorite is the CZ 9mm. They are inexpensive, but the quality is the thing I like. I also have Colts, brownings, S&W, none compares to the CZ

[Makarovii]

 

for small frame, I love my .380 CZ. a work of art and very high workmanship. My favorite is the CZ 9mm. They are inexpensive, but the quality is the thing I like. I also have Colts, brownings, S&W, none compares to the CZ

 

 

Ah, the CZ...I have a CZ50, 75B and 97B. I, too, am partial to the 75B. Probably the most comfortable 9mm I own, but than I have large hands too.

 

Sami, are you familiar with the Makarov? Bulgarian made Makarovs in 9x18mm Makarov are inexpensive and very reliable. Check with the local range if they have one to try. The Mak also comes in .380.

[Cripes]

I shoot .22 and .45 regularly. It's just another hobby like playing guitar to me. Fun stuff. Heck, in my travels there are some places I wish I could carry a side arm but protocol prohibits it.

[Samilyn]

Ah, the CZ...I have a CZ50, 75B and 97B. I, too, am partial to the 75B. Probably the most comfortable 9mm I own, but than I have large hands too. Sami, are you familiar with the Makarov? Bulgarian made Makarovs in 9x18mm Makarov are inexpensive and very reliable. Check with the local range if they have one to try. The Mak also comes in .380.

 

I haven't tried a CZ or a Makarov. Would be nice to have something a bit lighter than my Beretta, but I will be the first to say, the B is uber-dependable and very comfy to me, like an old friend.

 

And the best thing I ever did was change to Pachmayr grips. No more hand fatigue or soreness from hours on the range or missed shots from sweaty, slippery hands.

[Simon76]

That HK4 was carried by German police and several other nations for years. About 1990 you get them for about $125 out of Shotgun News when those governments would upgrade their stuff. A lot of times you see them with extra conversion barrels like a .22.

I've tried 3 of them and each one could hit center of mass at thiry yards easy, and out even further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_4

[outdoorgb]

I shoot .22 and .45 regularly. It's just another hobby like playing guitar to me. Fun stuff. Heck, in my travels there are some places I wish I could carry a side arm but protocol prohibits it.

 

I too shoot the .22 much these days. With cost of ammo going along with gas I find the .40SW and .223(5.56) a little costly. But still fun.

 

I too travel much for work and carry one of these for protection

[Samilyn]

Gawd....that airline food does indeed look like it needs to be put out of its misery. Blechhh!

[masterbuilt]

 

I just can't stand all these gun nuts buying these killing machines. Why would anyone anywhere need a hollowpoint round? Is a normal bullet not good enough for you? To make sure that the intruder is dead and not wounded? For home defense nothing beats a sawed off shotgun filled with rock salt or bean bags. A very effective and cheap non lethal alternative. Pepper spray is also a great way to protect yourself. If you have never seen the effects of it all I can say is that it is brutal.

 

 

The hollow point will go into the attacker and most likely not come out where it might hit another person, like some innocent bystander.

 

When you are defending yourself where lethal force is required, there are two basic rules: if you pull a weapon, be intent on using it or it will be used on you. When you shoot an attacker, make sure you have a big enough gun for knock-down force, called stopping power, or they might be able to grab you and then, you are dead for sure.

 

On pepper spray, many people accidently spray themselves as well as the mugger, because they spray during windy conditions or in confined spaces. Pepper spray is not as good as ammonia and water shot into their eyes, but ammonia or pepper spray, harm their eyes and they will get a lawyer and file suit against you for everything you are worth.

 

Remember Reginald Denny? The L.A. rioters pulled him from a truck and beat him in the head with bricks. He has permanent brain damage. The attackers got off. Why? They were "oppressed" and "angry" over the Rodney King verdict. Denny was guilty of one thing, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he had been armed, he might have been able to get away unharmed.

 

I hope you never need police protection.

[Crab_Cake]

 

The hollow point will go into the attacker and most likely not come out where it might hit another person, like some innocent bystander. When you are defending yourself where lethal force is required, there are two basic rules: if you pull a weapon, be intent on using it or it will be used on you. When you shoot an attacker, make sure you have a big enough gun for knock-down force, called stopping power, or they might be abe to grab you and then, you are dead for sure. On pepper spray, many people accidently spray themselves as well as the mugger, because they spray during windy conditions or in confined spaces. Pepper spray is not as good as ammonia and water shot into their eyes, but ammonia or pepper spray, harm their eyes and they will get a lawyer and file suit against you for everything you are worth. Remember Reginald Denny? The L.A. rioters pulled him from a truck and beat him in the head with bricks. He has permanent brain damage. The attackers got off. Why? They were "oppressed" and "angry" over the Rodney King verdict. Denny was guilty of one thing, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he had been armed, he might have been able to get away unharmed. I hope you never need police protection.

 

 

First off I understand stopping power. I have been using guns all my life, though they have all been rifles and shotguns.

 

Second, thanks for explaining the hollowpoint. I never understood the whole hollowpoint thing before. I thought that it was just meant to explode on impact causing massive internal injurys. That is something that I would not be OK with. Can't they make a bullet that won't pass through someone but still doesn't turn there guts into hamburger?

 

And thirdly for the riots. There are always times when a gun would be useful to have. I don't have any problems with myself carrying a gun or most of the people on this forum. The thing that worries me is that an irresponsible person can carry a gun. And the statistics show that if someone is trying to rob you they have the element of surprise. The majority of the time you would not be able to reach your firearm. If I was mugged I would rather just give the dude my wallet then kill him.

 

Don't get me wrong I am in favor of firearms and your right to carry them. I just want firearms training.

 

ok now that I have replied to your post.

 

Here is how I look at the whole criminal situation. If a crook wants to get into your house then he will get in. The key is to make your house very unapealing to the average crook. When they are scoping out a place they look for an easy hit. If they see signs of a dog, good locks on the doors, windows that are locked with a bar, motion sensing lights, and a well lit/easily viewable front yard then they are much more likely to pass on to the next house. It's all about probability. If for some reason the crook has beef with you or the like then all bets are off. He is going to get into that house.

 

Same thing with a car, lets say a crook is in a parking lot and he is going to steal a ride. The thief is looking for an easy take. If he sees a car sitting there with an alarm, a steering wheel lock, and electronic locks he is more than likely going to steal the next car down the line.

 

But if he really likes your car their is not really any way to stop him. Thief's are very smart and resourceful. Best just to take all the preventative measures that you can and have a good insurance policy.

 

 

Again these are all things that apply to my lifestyle where I am basically in the cascade foothills. In Detroit or another high crime area It could be very different. But even in downtown Seattle (our crime is relatively low compared to other big cities) these precautions work fine.

 

And I also want to reiterate that the chances of having a home intruder are very slim. If you are going to be robbed it will probably be while you are at work or away from the house.

[masterbuilt]

I have a Kel-Tec P3AT .380 caliber and hollow-points. The reason, neighborhood is getting to the point where MS13 has been spotted not more than a couple of miles away.

 

In addition to being an expert shot, I taught kenjutsu for years and have several battle-worthy swords here. I also taught tanto-jutsu, knife combat, and have several Ka-Bar fighting knives. The point of them, if you will pardon the pun, is self-defense.

 

You train in martial arts to be able to defend your country first, you community and your family second, yourself last. You also train so that you act instinctively if necessary.

 

The true strength of a warrior is gentleness and most confrontations can be avoided, but when a confrontation cannot, then, either you rely on law enforcement, whose function almost never serves as prevention, or yourself to protect those you love.

 

For me, if it comes to it, my neighbors and my family will be protected.

 

By the way, this handgun is carried by more plain-clothes policemen and government agents as a backup than any other. It is the smallest and lightest .380 ever made. Thus, it is easily conceiled and is not meant for any purpose other than self-defense.

[Crab_Cake]

 

I hope you never need police protection.

 

 

 

 

O and I hope you never need police protection as well.

[Crab_Cake]

In addition to being an expert shot, I taught kenjutsu for years and have several battle-worthy swords here. I also taught tanto-jutsu, knife combat, and have several Ka-Bar fighting knives. The point of them, if you will pardon the pun, is self-defense. You train in martial arts to be able to defend your country first, you community and your family second, yourself last. You also train so that you act instinctively if necessary.

 

Ok that is very cool masterbuilt, you are awesome. I sure hope I don't have to fight you lol.

 

I always enjoyed martial arts and I think that they are great.

 

Though I do have to contest your loyalties.

 

For me it is God > Family> Yourself > Community > Country

 

that is my opinion anyway and I am sticking to it

[Crab_Cake]

And now for something completely different. I just saw Wall - E and it was a great movie. Go and see it, even if you don't have kids. I was very impressed.

[valentsgrif]

 

IMO, the "home defense" argument is an excuse to sell and buy more guns.no .... I don't personally know anyone that had to use their guns to defend their homes.

 

 

Define "use"!

Most times the mere display of the gun is enough to turn away the assailant without actually shooting someone. Sometimes a warning shot or miss terminated the attack. Because of the bias against guns, many citizens in these settings refrain from reporting these incidents to the police and if they do report, the incident is classified as a "disturbance" or other such nonevent. This is why the stats have historically underreported total self defense uses.

 

Add to that the actual suppression by the media, especially where I live (NYC), of reporting on successful self defenses with a gun. If an accidental shooting kills a kid its front page stuff, but self defense incidents are routinely ignored or back paged.

 

Finally, I'm "using" my gun right now as I type- not to shoot, but I'm getting the use of it by the peace of mind it gives me by just being there. I also "use" it for the discreet fun of shooting targets, hunting and collecting.

 

What a tool. How many other objects can feed you, protect you and entertain you?

[Cripes]

 

And now for something completely different. I just saw Wall - E and it was a great movie. Go and see it, even if you don't have kids. I was very impressed.

 

 

Great movie. Loved the part when Eve shot at him.

[gthom]

 

IMO, the "home defense" argument is an excuse to sell and buy more guns. I live in Michigan in the Detroit area. Hunting is BIG here. Most of my relatives, friends and co-workers own multiple guns. As stated previously, I don't personally know anyone that had to use their guns to defend their homes.

 

 

I'll double up on this. I've lived in Chicago for 12 years now -- in the city, including areas like humbuldt park and albany park, and I've never needed my gun for home protection nor have I known anyone who has.

 

Again, I've carried handguns with me when I was younger and I understand and respect the mindset...but the people I know who are well-armed for "home protection" have pulled their weapons on friends knocking on their windows late at night or other such nonsense...all because they have a massive hard-on about killing an invader. I've been robbed at gun point (in Arizona, not Chicago), and I had a gun with me (but not in arm's reach) at the time....it did me no good, and I thank God it wasn't in arm's reach because pulling it in response would have likely resulted in my death.

 

It's all about training and safety, etc, etc, etc...but I know too many people (even if it's the minority of gun enthusiasts) who view their weapons as a source of power and are convinced by movies and the media that the entire country is made up of blood thirst drug addicts who rob, rape and murder. In the end they live their lives in fear, all because of the movies and sensationalist news media.

 

I believe that the S.C. made the right decision, or at least confirmed what most of us have already suspected the 2nd Amendment meant. In the end, I don't really think it changes much, other than removing an article from debate for the nuts on both sides. Have your guns, that's fine with me...but understand what they're for and understand that you have a life to live without living in fear. And for you hunters out there - more power to you, I can respect people who kill their own food, it's the best way to do it.

[StringJunky]

I carry a handgun, and I keep one at home for my wife. They're just tools in the respect that they are simply there to a job. Can't say I've ever waved one around or had an accidental discharge.

 

I also enjoy going to the range. It's relaxing. When you get into that zen mindset for shooting, all of the other stressors in your life go somewhere else for an hour or so.

[garthman]

I am very, very glad I live in the UK.

[ermghoti II]

 

I am very, very glad I live in the UK.

 

 

You like having more violent crime than the US? Odd.

[ermghoti II]

 

LMAO. That's probably pretty accurate than most people realize. I think it has to do with the weight and balance of the weapon. Though I'm used to the 9mm and handle it well, I tend to actually do better with a gorgeous Colt "show gun" revolver owned by a friend of mine.

 

 

 

Well, I shoot autos much better than revolvers, the geometry and the long trigger pull cause wheelguns to move in my hand throughout the pull, with a pretty sharp upward snap just before the break.

 

I figured the difference is physcological. If you hav a half-box of ammo in your magazine, you might feel you can squeeze off a couple in the direction of the target, whereas with six, you'd feel pressured to make every shot count. If that article is right, and the average police shooting involves four rounds, that revolver's getting pretty dry at the end.

[garthman]

 

You like having more violent crime than the US? Odd.

 

 

It's down to yobs fighting at the weekend after getting pissed . . . . . a few brusies and broken noses but not many people get shot.

[totamus]

According to Nationmaster,com, The United States is ranked 24th in murders per capita with 0.042802 per 1,000 people. The United Kingdom is ranked 46th with 0.0140633 per 1,000 people.

 

To put the same statistics in different terms, in the United States 1 person out of every 23,363 is murdered annually. In the UK, one out of every 71,107 is murdered annually.

 

The UK is a safer place to live. There is no way to correlate this to gun control. I have also seem the crime statistics for the UK in the years following their adoption of very stringent gun control and the crime rates increased.

 

One of the safest counties is Singapore, which has very strict gun control, and ammunition control, When I was in Singapore, my local host told me it was a capital offense to even have a single bullet.

 

But it is interesting to note, per the below chart, that the countries which have stricter control has much higher suicide rates. So the same numbers of people seem to be dieing in Europe and the Americas, but the percentage of suicide to murder changes.

 

 

Of course this is all interesting, but there is not enough information in these tidbits to draw conclusions.

 

It would not be correct to say, for example, that

A) the United States allows citizens to own handguns

B) The UK does Not

C) The Uk has a lesser murder rate

Therefore C is related to A and B

 

In the US those cities which have the tightest handgun control are also the cities with the highest murder rate. Switzerland is nearly 3 times as safe as Singapore and has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. Citizens are REQUIRED to keep the weapons issued as part of military service in their homes.

 

What I draw from all of this is that gun ownership and murder rates are not related. There are other stronger factors at work. Tying gun ownership to crime and murder is a red herring that gets many people incensed and diverts the discussion from the real issues - which are not as easy to correct as simple crusades to remove guns.

[garthman]

Well, you might be right, totamus, but Wiki says you have loads of gun related crimes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

 

Also, I've noticed that the US classifies "violent crime" as: murder, rape, robbery and aggraveated assault, whereas the UK also includes domestic violence, "snatch theft" etc which perhaps ups the UK figures. The use of a gun in crime in the UK occurs in less than 1% of incidents.