Members outdoorgb Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 You are wrong and a liar.Mom and Dad left the internet on again huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Well, see, now you're reading something into it so you can further your point. His words were " What if I said...bridge pins won't make a big difference...". That's not even a statement of fact. It's a suggestion of one. Your explanation, though, makes a lot of sense. However, is there a way to measure vibration of a string at any given point? More to the point, do you have something to measure with and do you have the readings to back up your statement? I'm not trying to shoot down your point, I'm just looking for some data to back it up, because it does make a lot of sense. Obviously, if you could measure it between the saddle and the nut, the readings would be off the charts. But how about between the nut and the tuning posts or between the saddle and bridge pins? If some amount of vibration could be measured at those points, then one wonders, what kind of affect does it have? I don't pretend to know enough to say what someone is really hearing or to say who's statement is right or wrong. I am only after more facts so I can make a more informed decision on the matter. He also says: "This detail is way more cosmetic than acoustic" I guess you could hang your arguments on he didn't say "totally" but it really is grasping at straws.Bob wants to sell guitars. He's trying to be diplomatic and not piss off readers so he suggests something and then waffles so that controversy doesn't occur. At least that's what I read into it. I don't blame him for starting to say it doesn't matter and then later saying, go ahead and try it some people seem to like it. He's biting his tongue a bit for business sake. (It would be cool to see him respond in his newsletter to his customer base with: "You are wrong and a liar." I must admit )As far as data to back up my explanation, all I can tell you is that it's my experience based on building and playing guitars for 30 years. There ARE math equations that can equate scale length, string guage and tension with a fundimental frequency. I don't have them on hand but they are online. I'll give you a good guess that it isn't in the audible frequency range with the distance you are dealing with from saddle to pin. Hell, PLUCK the string there and tell me if you hear a note at all...(other than the thunk you'd hear tapping ANYWHERE on the bridge) My guess is that if you placed a sensor ANYWHERE on the bridge you would probably measure the same vibrations because the entire bridge is moving as a single piece. Intuitively it pretty obvious that if altering bridge pins made a difference in sound, you'd have a whole movement of modders painting the tops of the pins with nail polish, coating them in varnish, altering the shapes of the tops...etc.One thing I've found building acoustics is actually how much stuff you have to do to get a different sound out of an acoustic guitar. They all sound pretty much like acoustic guitars when you play them. It's just subtle voicing variations you are going to achieve like sustain, balance, volume, separation, projection. You really have to alter things like bracing, box volume, scale length, soundhole size, bridge plate and bridge construction, soundboard thickness etc...to get solid results. You learn pretty quick not to bother with stuff like bridge pins if you want real results.One cool trick you might try: Take your guitar and strum a big E chord on it and while that's ringing out, take your flat palm and place it right on the face of the guitar right behind the bridge (where the real action is) and press firmly down (not too hard)See how much pressure it takes to totally try and deaden the soundboard before you start hearing something. Even then it's more of a volume/sustain change than a tone change. You WILL hear something change but the effort it takes might demonstrate how a little thing like swapping out bridge pins for tone is like pissing in the ocean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Michael Martin Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 "Won't make a big difference" does not translate to "will make no difference", GC. I'm just sayin'. For me, the ebony/plastic difference was quite subtle. And yes it was the same strings. But the plastic/brass difference was distinct, playing FS and digging into the strings pretty hard, on the B and high E anyway. Also using same strings on that pin changeout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Good stuff. I appreciate the info. But consider this.... I'll grant you that the tone that tiny bit of string between the saddle and the pin can/could generate is nothing worth writing home about. Just like plucking the strings between the nut and the tuning posts. However, there is some vibration possible there. You would have to agree with that. Now, whether the vibration of a normally plucked string is transmitted past the nut or the saddle is what is really up for debate. What I'm getting at is if there is vibration allowed past the saddle or nut, what affect would that have? As you said, the distance between the saddle and pin is so short that any tone produced wouldn't be desirable. But that's not my point. My uneducated guess would be that if all vibration is stopped at the saddle and the nut, that it doesn't matter what kind of material comes into contact with the rest of the string on each end. Mass considerations notwithstanding. On the other hand, if vibration was allowed past those nodal points, as you refer to them, then there is something to debate on. That's why I asked if it was possible to measure string vibrations beyond those nodal points, i.e. nut and saddle. Just string vibration. I know it might be impossible to keep the soundboard vibration out of it, but that's what I'm curious about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Krash Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Heeheehee - still at it, I see. Another slow day, so I'll toss in a couple more chips.- If no significant string vibration gets past the saddle, why does it matter if the ball end is up against the bridge plate? As long as the string is tuned to pitch and holding, pressure on the saddle is the same whether the ball is against the plate, hooked on the pin, or jammed somewhere in between. - There was an elaborate analysis of the physics of string/guitar vibration that circulated on electric boards some years ago, complete with graphs and waveforms, that purportedly explained why the headstock, tuners, and/or the string between nut and tuner affected the tone of the guitar. It was based on the the hypothesis that there is a longitudinal component to string vibration - as the string vibrates laterally, the length changes at the same frequency, and this lengthwise oscillation travels past the nut, and affects/is affected by the stuff above the nut. Same principle would apply to an acoustic bridge - the longitudinal vibration would get past the saddle to the pins and bridge plate. The question that was conveniently avoided in this analysis was whether there is enough energy getting past the nut to produce an effect that is perceptible to human ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Heeheehee - still at it, I see. Another slow day, so I'll toss in a couple more chips. - If no significant string vibration gets past the saddle, why does it matter if the ball end is up against the bridge plate? As long as the string is tuned to pitch and holding, pressure on the saddle is the same whether the ball is against the plate, hooked on the pin, or jammed somewhere in between. - There was an elaborate analysis of the physics of string/guitar vibration that circulated on electric boards some years ago, complete with graphs and waveforms, that purportedly explained why the headstock, tuners, and/or the string between nut and tuner affected the tone of the guitar. It was based on the the hypothesis that there is a longitudinal component to string vibration - as the string vibrates laterally, the length changes at the same frequency, and this lengthwise oscillation travels past the nut, and affects/is affected by the stuff above the nut. Same principle would apply to an acoustic bridge - the longitudinal vibration would get past the saddle to the pins and bridge plate. The question that was conveniently avoided in this analysis was whether there is enough energy getting past the nut to produce an effect that is perceptible to human ears. That's what I was getting at. If someone could definitively prove that vibration was stopped at the nut and saddle, then most arguments about affect would be proven false.However, if vibration does not completely stop past those nodal points, then there should be some kind of affect. The question would then be, how much, and, as Krash said, how much is perceptible to human ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 I'll grant you that the tone that tiny bit of string between the saddle and the pin can/could generate is nothing worth writing home about. Just like plucking the strings between the nut and the tuning posts. However, there is some vibration possible there. You would have to agree with that. Who can argue if you throw a sugar cube into a swimming pool that the water isn't sweeter? All logic would dictate that it is. Maybe the results are subtle but it's hard to argue that the water hasn't changed in some way. No one would argue that the water is the same before and after the sugar cube is added. Seriously this is what you guys all sound like to me. "I have tasted water before and after the sugar cube addition and can say that it tastes definitely sweeter. I can't help it you all aren't sensitive enough to taste it like me. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 - If no significant string vibration gets past the saddle, why does it matter if the ball end is up against the bridge plate? As long as the string is tuned to pitch and holding, pressure on the saddle is the same whether the ball is against the plate, hooked on the pin, or jammed somewhere in between. Yep. Ever seen a "pinless bridge"? No ball end up against a bridgeplate. It ain't important. Now I know you might walk down the flawed logic road of thinking that a pinless bridge sounds "different" that a pinned bridge...but you're hearing something else. A different guitar. A different bridge design...but you ain't hearing that ball and bridge plate. Don't get me wrong, you need that ball up there against the plate for tuning stability and to avoid the ball rattling in there...but tone doesn't enter into it much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 GC, you're still pounding the "doesn't make any difference" drum. I'm down the street and around the corner.Can you say, with 100% certainty, that all string vibration stops at the saddle and/or nut? If you can say yes, and prove it, then your argument has a lot of merit. Otherwise, it's still open to the perceptions of humans and will always be a bone (or tusq ) of contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DarkHorseJ27 Posted July 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Who can argue if you throw a sugar cube into a swimming pool that the water isn't sweeter? All logic would dictate that it is. Maybe the results are subtle but it's hard to argue that the water hasn't changed in some way. No one would argue that the water is the same before and after the sugar cube is added. Seriously this is what you guys all sound like to me."I have tasted water before and after the sugar cube addition and can say that it tastes definitely sweeter. I can't help it you all aren't sensitive enough to taste it like me. " You rather opinionated on what sounds is or isn't there on a guitar you've never played, heard, or even seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TelesRock Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 He also says: "This detail is way more cosmetic than acoustic" I guess you could hang your arguments on he didn't say "totally" but it really is grasping at straws. Bob wants to sell guitars. He's trying to be diplomatic and not piss off readers so he suggests something and then waffles so that controversy doesn't occur. At least that's what I read into it. I don't blame him for starting to say it doesn't matter and then later saying, go ahead and try it some people seem to like it. He's biting his tongue a bit for business sake. (It would be cool to see him respond in his newsletter to his customer base with: "You are wrong and a liar." I must admit ) As far as data to back up my explanation, all I can tell you is that it's my experience based on building and playing guitars for 30 years. There ARE math equations that can equate scale length, string guage and tension with a fundimental frequency. I don't have them on hand but they are online. I'll give you a good guess that it isn't in the audible frequency range with the distance you are dealing with from saddle to pin. Hell, PLUCK the string there and tell me if you hear a note at all...(other than the thunk you'd hear tapping ANYWHERE on the bridge) My guess is that if you placed a sensor ANYWHERE on the bridge you would probably measure the same vibrations because the entire bridge is moving as a single piece. Intuitively it pretty obvious that if altering bridge pins made a difference in sound, you'd have a whole movement of modders painting the tops of the pins with nail polish, coating them in varnish, altering the shapes of the tops...etc. One thing I've found building acoustics is actually how much stuff you have to do to get a different sound out of an acoustic guitar. They all sound pretty much like acoustic guitars when you play them. It's just subtle voicing variations you are going to achieve like sustain, balance, volume, separation, projection. You really have to alter things like bracing, box volume, scale length, soundhole size, bridge plate and bridge construction, soundboard thickness etc...to get solid results. You learn pretty quick not to bother with stuff like bridge pins if you want real results. One cool trick you might try: Take your guitar and strum a big E chord on it and while that's ringing out, take your flat palm and place it right on the face of the guitar right behind the bridge (where the real action is) and press firmly down (not too hard) See how much pressure it takes to totally try and deaden the soundboard before you start hearing something. Even then it's more of a volume/sustain change than a tone change. You WILL hear something change but the effort it takes might demonstrate how a little thing like swapping out bridge pins for tone is like pissing in the ocean. Once again you are right. When will these goat-loving idiots listen to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Another bridge pin thread delivers ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gthom Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Another bridge pin thread delivers ... I was going to say that it hasn't truly delivered until there's a discussion of the merits of taping coins to the bridge, but then I remembered that this time the discussion was about fishing line weights. So yes, this thread has delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Krash Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Yep. Ever seen a "pinless bridge"?Yep, been playing one for 40 years (less the years I couldn't play at all ). My old 1260 still sounds pretty good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DarkHorseJ27 Posted July 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 By the way, anyone want some free ebony bridge pins? Dollar to cover shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Once again you are right. When will these goat-loving idiots listen to you?Nah, nothing too obvious going on here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Nah, nothing too obvious going on here... I was gonna say.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Once again you are right. When will these goat-loving idiots listen to you? Goat-loving idiots who know they are goat-loving idiots are certainly less idiotic than idiots who are idiotic but aren't aware of it! ... Les femmes doivent toutes avoir envie de te coller leurs serviettes sanitaires dans le front tellement t'es un cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Goat-loving idiots who know they are goat-loving idiots are certainly less idiotic than idiots who are idiotic but aren't aware of it! ... Les femmes doivent toutes avoir envie de te coller leurs serviettes sanitaires dans le front tellement t'es un cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TelesRock Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Goat-loving idiots who know they are goat-loving idiots are certainly less idiotic than idiots who are idiotic but aren't aware of it! ... Les femmes doivent toutes avoir envie de te coller leurs serviettes sanitaires dans le front tellement t'es un cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 ... Les femmes doivent toutes avoir envie de te coller leurs serviettes sanitaires dans le front tellement t'es un cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 (how do you say in French) Kick his ass Misha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 C'est un joyeux imb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TelesRock Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 All you guys are just mad because you can only get goats instead of women, like electric players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 C'est un joyeux imb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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