Getting internships at recording studios?

[UstadKhanAli]

It's really hard to go to sleep after playing gigs, too, no matter how far away and late it was. I try and unwind by reading a book in bed to get my mind settled.

[Switch]

Oddly enough, I really want to get in the situation where I'd be doing the kind of hours being discussed here. Not on a full time/no sleep basis, but doing it enough to know that I can do it, I think that would be important. I gotsta get me a job at a local studio, dagnabit.

Also re; relaxing/unwinding...
Meditation. It's something I've only scratched the surface of, but once you get the hang of it, it really works. As much as anything else, it seems to be about being able to control your mind, and manipulate it to a point of relaxation. It takes some practice and effort, but it's pretty handy for those situations where even if you can't get some good, long sleep, you can get your body to put you into a little deeper sleep than just a usual nap will allow.

[CN Fletcher]

Also re; relaxing/unwinding...

 

 

Bourbon and pills have always worked best for me... YMMV.

[Instrospection]

Once you pass the 18 hour mark the next dozen or so aren't too hard as you're probably already burnt to a crisp and are living off adrenaline and caffiene... the real bitch at that point is trying to get to sleep as you've trained your body to be awake, and your mind is still running a thousand miles an hour through the fatigue.

That reminds me of a story that Motorhead told, that Jimmy Miller would fall asleep at the console (though there was some substance induced fatigue...), and then would suddenly wake up and start pushing faders and making it look like he was doing something. In my opinion, the longer the individual session goes on, the more you're fighting an uphill battle with fatigue, players that don't want to be playing any more those days, etc, etc. Then the mindset is "let's bloody get this DONE already", rather than "well, let's do a couple more takes, because that certainly wasn't the one". Some work well like this, but for others, they have a self sabotaging nature in that they don't want to be there and won't put in their best performances. Especially a vocalist in which the band wants his/ her input on the guitarist's tenth overdub on track 5 or whatever.

[Phil O'Keefe]

That reminds me of a story that Motorhead told, that Jimmy Miller would fall asleep at the console (though there was some substance induced fatigue...), and then would suddenly wake up and start pushing faders and making it look like he was doing something. In my opinion, the longer the individual session goes on, the more you're fighting an uphill battle with fatigue, players that don't want to be playing any more those days, etc, etc. Then the mindset is "let's bloody get this DONE already", rather than "well, let's do a couple more takes, because that certainly wasn't the one". Some work well like this, but for others, they have a self sabotaging nature in that they don't want to be there and won't put in their best performances. Especially a vocalist in which the band wants his/ her input on the guitarist's tenth overdub on track 5 or whatever.

I definitely agree that you can reach a point of diminishing returns with things if you try to push musicians past a certain point. IMO, one of the most valuable skills a producer can have is the ability to gauge that, and to know when to push for one more take, or to say that's enough for tonight - we'll come back to it tomorrow.

Of course, you can say that to the singer, or the guitarist and send them home, but the engineer still has to stay there to do the comps, or the horn overdubs, or to do the data backups... many musicians, many things to do, only one engineer. It's like punching on an analog recorder. The musician only has to get it right once, but the engineer has to hit those punch in / out points on the money EVERY time. It's just part of the gig, man.

[stopthebus]

So I got a call from Prairie Sun Studios in California today (prairiesun.com). It looks like a pretty sweet place, a lot of big names there. Tom Waits is somewhat of a 'resident artist' there apparently. The way he described it sounds just like what you guys said, 7 days a week, 14+ hour days.

 

The only downside is that it is unpaid, so I would have save up enough money until then to make it through 3 months without having a source of income, since it'd be impossible to get another job. Think it's worth it though? I almost think its worth it just to be in California for the summer (rather than Wisconsin)

[CN Fletcher]

Praire Sun has been around for 25+ years I know about... I remember getting some tracks from there in the mid 80's that had a very interesting tape alignment [1k= 6db>250nWb/m ; 10k= 3db>250nWb/m]... it's a pro joint.

However, if someone is asking you to work 7 days / 14 hr.s a day for no pay... that's just wrong. Even if it's not minimum wage... there should be a wage of some kind. The 14th Amendment kind of abolished those kinds of hours for those kinds of wages.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread... when I was coming up I was doing 100+ hour weeks for $2/hr. [minimum wage at the time was $3.15/hr.]. The studio manager helped me out with the advice to set up a "sole proprieter" company based on a bull{censored} SS## so I could deposit the checks which were made out to that company without paying taxes on the income [so far, no jail time stemming from those earnings].

That left me with a couple hundred a week in my pocket. This was a long time ago... so today I would hope you could get at least $5-/hr. [i think minimum is $7.50 in the rest of the country... it's $8/hr. here in Massachusetts].

Find a "room mate" situation through Craigslist.org... bring a minimal amount of {censored} with you [8-10 days worth of clothes as you're not going to be doing laundry as much as you would probably like]... and hope that the sessions you're on feed you [most of mine did].

I don't know what your level of experience is... in my case I had done a couple of years in a local studio for free while doing live gigs to support myself. This cut down on my availability to the studio but they weren't paying me so they couldn't bitch.

After a while of working for free I had proven myself where I became their "main guy". I still wasn't being paid... but I got onto the good gigs. One of those "good gigs" is what got me the gig where I could go "full time".

If you're in a situation where you're not ready to walk into the control room and start working... where they want you to prove yourself as a "general assistant" [intern, glorified cleaning bitch] then you have to figure out a way to negotiate some kind of "end period" to the working for free thing. A month, maybe two months... something like that. At the same time you need to be able to have the availability to hustle up some work... cause a man's gotta eat.

If I remember correctly Praire Sun is just North of San Francisco / Oakland. There are any number of bars where I'm sure you can find a live gig... and any number of bands you can find to mix live. The downside is that you'll be unavailable for night sessions... but if they're not paying you, they can't bitch... and you can still have the opportunity to prove yourself, your dedication to the craft, your ability to learn their way of doing things... that you have a permanently positive attitude [no matter how physically tired you're going to be... and trust me, you will be fried!!].

If you can work all that out then you might be on a great road. If you can't work that out then either you weren't right for the gig or the gig wasn't right for you. One thing to always remember is that as much as you love audio... and as much as you want to be an engineer... learning to get work, keep that work, and get paid for that work is as much a part of the gig as the work itself.

Best of luck with all you do!!

Peace.

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

I work in finance and I thought the hazing for rookies was bad here. Apparently, it's nothing compared to the music industry. Seems like the dues you pay are far more severe.

I'm just curious how you are supposed to learn everything if you are running around doing BS errands?

My drummer's brother interned at a studio in the area and he complained that all they ever gave him was BS work and never let him do anything. And I know that he was very interested in learning because whenever I saw him, we would always talk about Pro Tools, recording equipment, etc. It makes me glad that I'm doing this as a hobby.

[fuzzball]

I had an intern once, it was nice. She got the coffee, put up things on my web page (nothing fance....heck it is fee), and did some market research. I must say it saved me hours of work.

[stopthebus]

Yeah, the Prairie Sun guy did say that over 50% of their interns quit after the first week, just because they need to get a real job to make money. So it seems like they're pretty set in their "unpaid" ways, and wouldn't really let people take time off to get a paid job. So it's not looking good.

[fuzzball]

If you have a good studio, I would check local schools with programs and see if they have students for internships. Some students will gain some credits that way (unpaid but they at least get credit and better yet real experience).

[Bobby D]

Does anyone have any tips or advice as to getting a summer job/internship at a recording studio?

 

yes.

 

learn to make coffee, learn how to paint, clean, mop, sweep, and roll cables.

 

one out of a hundred or so may get a job.

 

don't expect fullsail or any of the other audio schools to get you a job. in fact, many people in the industry will laugh when they see those resumes. sorry, but it's true from what i have seen.

 

but.....on the bright side......when i was producing a band at Electric Lady summer 2005, the studio manager there had worked his way up from intern/assistant, basically LIVED there, did every dirty job no one else wanted to do, and managed to become manager when the place changed hands. he is an example of the one in a hundred.

 

studio biz is not anywhere near what it used to be. record company recording budgets are DOWN. project studios are on every freaking corner in the USA. and everyone has protools in their garage.

 

don't let this deter you from going for it. just realize that it will be as hard as it is for a musician to get a major label deal.....

 

so, you might as well get a few months experience as a barista at starbucks, so you can make GOOD coffee.......and ROLL the cables RIGHT, biotch!

 

and DONT DROP ANY MICS....i have seen people fired for that several times :eek:

[Bobby D]

Of course, you can say that to the singer, or the guitarist and send them home, but the engineer still has to stay there to do the comps, or the horn overdubs, or to do the data backups... many musicians, many things to do, only one engineer. It's like punching on an analog recorder. The musician only has to get it right once, but the engineer has to hit those punch in / out points on the money EVERY time. It's just part of the gig, man.

damnit, i am not doing the gig without an assistant engineer!:lol:

Phil is right. It is EXHAUSTING when YOU are the guy that is there for EVERY track, every overdub, every rough mix, every guitar track. all the band members come and go, go play PS3 in the lounge, go get something to eat...while the microscope is focused on the engineer for 18 hours straight.

and GOD HELP YOU if you screw up the punch on that one magic track that the guitarist FINALLY played right....

nice to see Fletcher here contributing, the forum has a few people on it who have been there done that and know WTF they are talking about. SCORE!

[Synonym Music]

Yeah, the Prairie Sun guy did say that over 50% of their interns quit after the first week, just because they need to get a real job to make money. So it seems like they're pretty set in their "unpaid" ways, and wouldn't really let people take time off to get a paid job. So it's not looking good.

Yeah, sure, forget eating and just focus on engineering! You don't need air or water or anything like the rest of humans do, right?

What egotistical bull{censored}. Remember that Fletcher said not to go unpaid and that the gig may not be for you. It's pretty obvious to me that kind of work would be undue punishment.

[UstadKhanAli]

I'm just curious how you are supposed to learn everything if you are running around doing BS errands?

Ideally, at least in the past, if you did those BS errands correctly and shown that you were reliable and personable, then you'd get to start working the equipment eventually. Often, first, you'd have to write settings down, put away things, align the tape machine, clean, put away cables, then start in on more of the stuff that you'd want to be doing later on.

I have my own studio, and I did this partially because I wanted to jump in with both feet, and partially because I don't have the constitution to constantly be pulling 100-hour weeks/36 hour days, etc., something I would have done if I had taken the second engineer positions that I was offered before (the studio owner was up front about the hours and work).

So...the end result is that in my studio, I do all of the recording, mixing and cool stuff...AND I do all the BS errands and cleaning and cataloging and backing up and saving and straightening up and putting away cables and getting coffee...I get to work even harder!!

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm just curious how you are supposed to learn everything if you are running around doing BS errands?

 

 

You're not always out getting lunch, or trying to track down a bag of nanoWebers, or gay midget pr0n at the request of the band, producer or first engineer.

 

When you're not cleaning the head or sweeping the floor or running errands, don't just sit there on your butt at the reception desk or in the lounge waiting for someone to walk in, or for the phone to ring... or shooting the bull with the other interns and second engineers. If you're cleared to observe the session, DO IT. Observe. Take notes. Be ready to answer questions when they arise in a way that's useful to the artists and staff, like "what take was it that I went so wild over?" If you're "on it", you'll be able to say "that was take four" because you 1. were paying attention and 2. were taking notes. Learn when to speak up and when to shut up - you should be doing a LOT more of the later and very little of the former while interning and second engineering. Save your questions until AFTER the session, and save your suggestions and input until you're asked for them.

 

Observe how the engineer sets things up, what gear they used for a specific situation and "sound", and how they interact with the musicians and producer. Observe how the producers interact with the musicians and engineers. You may learn a lot that way - both about what to do when your time arrives, as well as some thing you may NOT want to do.

 

Instead of sitting around, grab that SSL or Lexicon manual and start studying. If they give you any off-hours "playtime", take what you read and start experimenting with it - applying hands on experience to what you "learned" from reading the manuals.

 

You'll only get as much out of your internship as YOU are willing to put into it. Don't expect the studio staff to hold your hand or go out of their way to "teach you" - you have to be proactive about learning, and definitely need to learn how to get along well with, and work well with others. The people who do those things will be the ones that the senior staff will 1. want to keep around and 2. will be willing to answer questions from and show things to.

[fuzzball]

I'm just curious how you are supposed to learn everything if you are running around doing BS errands? You're not always out getting lunch, or trying to track down a bag of nanoWebers, or gay midget pr0n at the request of the band, producer or first engineer. When you're not cleaning the head or sweeping the floor or running errands, don't just sit there on your butt at the reception desk or in the lounge waiting for someone to walk in, or for the phone to ring... or shooting the bull with the other interns and second engineers. If you're cleared to observe the session, DO IT. Observe. Take notes. Be ready to answer questions when they arise in a way that's useful to the artists and staff like "what take was it that I went so wild over?" If you're "on it", you'll be able to say "that was take four" because you 1. were paying attention and 2. were taking notes. Learn when to speak up and when to shut up - you should be doing a LOT more of the later and very little of the former while interning and second engineering. Save your questions until AFTER the session, and save your suggestions and input until you're asked for them. Observe how the engineer sets things up, what gear they used for a specific situation and "sound", and how they interact with the musicians and producer. Observe how the producers interact with the musicians and engineers. You may learn a lot that way - both about what to do when your time arrives, as well as some thing you may NOT want to do. Instead of sitting around, grab that SSL or Lexicon manual and start studying. If they give you any off-hours "playtime", take what you read and start experimenting with it - applying hands on experience to what you "learned" from reading the manuals. You'll only get as much out of your internship as YOU are willing to put into it. Don't expect the studio staff to hold your hand or go out of their way to "teach you" - you have to be proactive about learning, and definitely need to learn how to get along well with, and work well with others. The people who do those things will be the ones that the senior staff will 1. want to keep around and 2. will be willing to answer questions from and show things to.

That was gold

[Phil O'Keefe]

and DONT DROP ANY MICS....i have seen people fired for that several times

 

A drummer from a platinum selling band knocked over a longbody U47 at a studio that shall go nameless. The studio wasn't happy about it, and they did have a little chat with the drummer, but it was the second engineer who really got his butt in a crack because HE left the mic out where it could be knocked over, when he was supposed to put it away.

 

And in case anyone's wondering, while I know all the people involved, no, it WASN'T me that left the mic out.

 

And for those who really have their priorities in order, fortunately, the U47 survived relatively unscathed.

[Bobby D]

and DONT DROP ANY MICS....i have seen people fired for that several times A drummer from a platinum selling band knocked over a longbody U47 at a studio that shall go nameless. The studio wasn't happy about it, and they did have a little chat with the drummer, but it was the second engineer who really got his butt in a crack because HE left the mic out where it could be knocked over, when he was supposed to put it away. And in case anyone's wondering, while I know all the people involved, no, it WASN'T me that left the mic out. And for those who really have their priorities in order, fortunately, the U47 survived relatively unscathed.

yeah, if it's NOT IN USE it goes back to it's HOLE. very simple rule, but often overlooked in the heat of a session.

and vintage tube mics...well.....they are worth much more than an intern's career. i still take a deep breath if i am handling the good ones. they deserve the ultimate RESPECT from anyone using them.

And Phil, your earlier post about not SITTING ON YOUR BUTT during downtime is really true. There's always stuff to do. And plenty of stuff to learn. I still don't know how to run that SSL 9000, but that's why I hire engineers

I love the studio, I really do. I ran a 16 track 2" facility in the mid 80s, and that sort of convinced me I didn't want to do it for a living. But man, I miss that big fat sounding 2" MCI 16 track analog machine. Nothing else I have worked on sounded like that thing. We also had the ORIGINAL tube console from Muscle Shoals upstairs.....which got parted out when I referred someone in the audio biz to it back in the late 80s. He bought it immediately, and chopped it up. That console was amazing, and somewhere I am sure it still exists in discrete channels somewhere.....

[nerol1st]

DONT DROP ANY MICS....i have seen people fired for that several times :eek:

Speaking of that. A previous intern where I was dropped an ifet 7 and killed it. It was the studio's favorite mic.

His school is on the "no interns from that school" list.

[stopthebus]

Alright, so the unpaid internship = probably a bad idea?

[IsildursBane]

Ideally, at least in the past, if you did those BS errands correctly and shown that you were reliable and personable, then you'd get to start working the equipment eventually. Often, first, you'd have to write settings down, put away things, align the tape machine, clean, put away cables, then start in on more of the stuff that you'd want to be doing later on. I have my own studio, and I did this partially because I wanted to jump in with both feet, and partially because I don't have the constitution to constantly be pulling 100-hour weeks/36 hour days, etc., something I would have done if I had taken the second engineer positions that I was offered before (the studio owner was up front about the hours and work). So...the end result is that in my studio, I do all of the recording, mixing and cool stuff... AND I do all the BS errands and cleaning and cataloging and backing up and saving and straightening up and putting away cables and getting coffee...I get to work even harder!!

That a good point that often gets overlooked in these discussions - Many/most studio owners are really just small business owners and as such, get stuck doing most of the BS work themselves (which is not uncommon in any industry). At my last gig, my boss owned probably $2M worth of PA gear, backline, and trucks; worked so much that 100 hours/wk would require taking time off; and would still clean the bathroom occasionally.

-Dan.

[Synonym Music]

That's a good point that often gets overlooked in these discussions - Many/most studio owners are really just small business owners and as such, get stuck doing most of the BS work themselves (which is not uncommon in any industry). At my last gig, my boss owned probably $2M worth of PA gear, backline, and trucks; worked so much that 100 hours/wk would require taking time off; and would still clean the bathroom occasionally. -Dan.

Of course. So if you can shove that job off on someone else, you should... (And that's not disrespectful, it's business).

I have no problem with hard work being involved or what type of work it is, but there is a point of diminishing returns if everything I did was for a studio and not myself. I'm not living my life for them, nor are they for me. That's empty and draining.

[Phil O'Keefe]

No one caught my "bag of nanoWebers" reference / comment...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Alright, so the unpaid internship = probably a bad idea?

 

 

A lot of "internships" are either unpaid, or very low paying gigs... that doesn't automatically make them a "bad idea", but you do need to know what you're getting yourself into, and it does need to be a mutually beneficial situation for both you AND the studio.