So would you actually use an amp/processor/laptop live with guitar instead of a rack?

[Anderton]

I've worked a lot with Guitar Rig, AmpliTube, Nigel, etc. and find them to be getting more impressive all the time.

 

I did a story on some of these products and interviewed the developers. Most said that these are still pretty much used in the studio, but more guitarists are using them live. Part of it's the repeatability and compactness, but a quote from one of the IK Multimedia guys kind of stuck in mind...to paraphrase, it was that past a certain, it was physically too difficult to carry around all the gear that a plug-in based setup could provide; and if you needed that big a palette of sounds, you didn't really have much of an option.

 

Now, I DON'T want to get into a "oh modeling will never sound as good as tubes" vs. a "well it's good enough for me" type of thing. I think we're past that point; tubes do what tubes do, and modeling does what modeling does, and they both have their fans. But are you ready to actually make the leap from rack to laptop or desktop? And if you have, are you satisfied with it? If you haven't, what's preventing you from doing so? Please discuss...

[Phil O'Keefe]

I've got no problems with using computers live, but I really don't do that. My friend uses his old clamshell Mac for things like set lists and lyrics, but we don't sequence anything, and I don't use a computer for amp sims live either, although I'm not opposed to using them in the studio for some things.

 

As far as why I don't want to use one live, I guess it comes down to a few issues:

 

1. Reliability. If the computer goes down in mid song, you're hosed.

 

2. Cost. I don't own a laptop, and I'm not about to carry a desktop / tower to a gig. And a laptop isn't in the cards - just can't justify it from a cost standpoint, although I have recommended them to friends who want to use them live for keyboard sounds, etc. But I play out live so infrequently that it's just not cost effective for me to buy a laptop just for that purpose.

 

3. Tone / familiarity. Okay, I admit it - I've used my Pods a few times live - either into a PA or in fromt of one or two of my amps. Mostly for tonal variety and effects... but overall, I like the sound of my amps, and I'm just more comfortable "old school" style - give me an amp and some stompboxes and I'm in my "comfort zone".

 

4. Latency issues. I admit this is much less of an issue now than it was in the past, but if you're running a lot of stuff live, you need a good interface and a fast computer, and again, we get back to the cost / benefits equation. For ME, it's just not worth the required investment for something I'll use only on rare occasions.

 

I'm primarily a studio cat (hi Duddits ) and as such, I don't get out of my cage very often. And besides, I'm not really a great player... no one wants to hear me live.

 

I think the amp sims have a lot of uses and a lot of potential for live use these days, and I have no problem with people using them - but for me, it's just not practical.

[MorePaul]

Well, in terms of physical -- I'd prob just rackmount to the computer too (I mean, I think we're past rackmount being anything more than a specification for enclosure mounting -- hell, the servers this is pumping through are most likely in a rack)

 

A ruggedized laptop, I suppose, would be an option in terms of durability, but for load-out I'd pref just rackmounting

 

 

I still have concerns about running things on general purpose OSs...so maybe splitting the difference with imbedded OS boxes that run loadable SW might be the way to go

something like

That soundart box

or the thing that runs VSTs (reacktor? releader?? re...something)

 

The line seems to be blurring, I noticed the latest Lexicon "value" system runs as HW VST to

 

For just a straight "personal computer" running a generalized OS - I guess, at a minimum I'd have to keep a clean drive image to reload once I got it in a relatively stable state

[boosh]

As you know Craig,I work a lot with Guitarrig and I have thought about the options of how to use it on stage.

 

Using a laptop is not one of them. Man I'd hate to think what happens if I knock over the whole set.

 

My idea :

 

Kind of a personal P.A. system. A cabinet with an Amp that has the Guitarrig software built in. A small screen,...as big as the Guitarrig Interface. Built in processor and harddisk. Rocksteady,... I mean you have to be able to kick over the whole thing without Crashing your set-up.

 

I actually have drawings of the whole Sha-Bang..... Made a couple of designs etc. 50ties style Amp.....Shredder Amp,.. JazzRig... the works.

 

Okay,..give them guys at Native instruments my email Craig and we set it off.

[Super 8]

I would be concerned about reliability of the software, and durability of the laptop.

 

I would think a Pod Live XT, or one of the other dedicated modeling devices would make much more sense. Certainly it makes more sense from an ecconomic standpoint.

[blue2blue]

I've decided that the right way to talk about this is to say that I'm not a good enough guitar player to deal with the admittedly very tiny delays involved in even digital mixing, let alone plugs with TTB monitoring.

 

So, as appealing as it sounds -- and I've tried recreating my old live loop act using an echo loop program -- I'd have to say, no.

[lakeoffire]

besides having a guitar pluged into guitar rig or amplitube, i'd love to have a guitar with a midi pickup and a controller intro something like cubase with tons of plug-ins... going from an electric guitar, to un upright bass sound, to some african drum sounds, to a violin, and many many others...

 

the only problem with this is that if you use windows for this kind of rig, then it is going to {censored} up, and jam in the middle of a jam (no pun intended ), and then you have to restart, and turn on the software... also, if you wanna do it using legal versions of cubase and its plugins, then you would have to sell your body to science after the gig to pay for it...

[boosh]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue I've decided that the right way to talk about this is to say that I'm not a good enough guitar player to deal with the admittedly very tiny delays involved in even digital mixing, let alone plugs with TTB monitoring.

 

 

I usually have a 2ms latency delay delay,...

 

So what you're saying is that's too much for ya?

[John Sayers]

There's a keyboard player who hangs around my area during the summer - the rest of the year he is the MD for a longtime major UK act. He uses a laptop for all his sounds, B4, FM7,steinberg piano etc.

 

Sounds great and he appears to have no reliability problems.

 

let's face it - when was the last time XP crashed on you - I can't remember it.

 

cheers

john

[XXX]

all the guitarport and the adreneline are being used live .

[doug osborne]

 

Originally posted by boosh I usually have a 2ms latency delay delay,... So what you're saying is that's too much for ya?

 

 

Remember, that is the same delay as standing two feet from your speaker.

[Anderton]

Maybe the Muse Receptor, Manifold Labs Plugzilla, or Open Labs Neko would be the best compromise, assuming you can run the software you want on it...they're basically computers but more rugged and optimized for music. And the Open Labs has a keyboard if you double on keys

 

I remember the Panasonic Toughbook, though, don't know if they make it any more but that could seemingly survive just about anything. I've used a laptop live for DJ/remix sets and -- knock on wood -- so far, so good. I think once Windows went to XP and Apple went to OS X computers became a lot less scary to use live.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by lakeoffire the only problem with this is that if you use windows for this kind of rig, then it is going to {censored} up, and jam in the middle of a jam (no pun intended ), and then you have to restart, and turn on the software... also, if you wanna do it using legal versions of cubase and its plugins, then you would have to sell your body to science after the gig to pay for it...

 

I wouldn't blame Windows. It's more likely that you are using bad cracks. That's the impression I get, anyway.

 

Like John Sayers said, NT based Windows is very stable. Any crashes I experience anymore are almost always the fault of the software, NOT the OS.

 

 

That said, I don't know what it is, but something about everything moving toward software leaves a bittersweet taste in my mouth.

 

I guess it's perhaps more convenient than having to drag around all of these proprietary synths, samplers, guitar FX, recorders, and so on, but I can't help feeling like we're losing something.

 

I don't know. Maybe it's just that everything is 'virtual' and nothing is real anymore.

 

I wonder what the odds are that my 4 year old son, and 2 yr old daughter will never know what it's like to play real drums, plug into a real amp, or play a dedicated synth?

 

Oh well....every generation gets more spoiled I guess.

[Dylan Walters]

I wouldn't use a laptop unless I had a backup. The hardware in laptops is flaky at best, and I've used just all of them. It's all a luck of the draw. You can get lucky and get 5 years out a system, or it can crap out on you within a month. I'd possibly consider a small form factor or mATX system, but then I'd need to lug around a monitor, keyboard and mouse as well. It's possible to use a computer for your amp setup, but I think it's still a bit complicated and expensive when considering other floorboard or pedal alternatives. I could buy all of the boutique pedals that I'd ever need for the same price as a decent laptop. Don't get me wrong, I totally dig computer modeling for production, but for live purposes I don't think it's as practical unless you have a lot money to throw at it.

[Duck King]

 

Originally posted by Super 8 I would be concerned about reliability of the software, and durability of the laptop. I would think a Pod Live XT, or one of the other dedicated modeling devices would make much more sense. Certainly it makes more sense from an ecconomic standpoint.

 

 

Why?

 

It's alot more fun to spend $3000 instead of $400.

[Anderton]

 

I guess it's perhaps more convenient than having to drag around all of these proprietary synths, samplers, guitar FX, recorders, and so on, but I can't help feeling like we're losing something.

 

 

We're losing longevity. I have a couple 40 year old guitars that are absolutely killer instruments. Do you think any of us will be using any of the virtual instruments happening now when it's 2045? I don't think so. I bet we won't even be able to find something that will play them back.

 

On the one hand, the idea of a disposable culture has some advantages...live in the now, live for the moment, discover new tools...but there needs to be a balance, methinks. I wouldn't buy a guitar if the salesperson said "Oh by the way, you won't be able to buy strings for this four years from now."

[Super 8]

 

Originally posted by Duck King Why? It's alot more fun to spend $3000 instead of $400.

 

 

You must not get buyer's remorse the way I do.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Why?

 

It's alot more fun to spend $3000 instead of $400.

 

Especially if it's someone else's money!

 

But then again, maybe I'm the wrong guy to talk about that. My family is all Class A personality / highly successful types... I guess I am a bit too, but I focused my drive towards other things, and less towards the chasing of the almighty dollar. If I wanted to be rich, I never would have decided to become a record producer / recording engineer. So while I enjoy having some money in my pocket, and I love buying new tools, to me, money is nothing more than a required thing you need to live, and another tool. Like all tools, it's there to be used, but needs to be used wisely for the best results. And if I can do what I need with a $400 box instead of a $1,500 box, that makes sense to me.

 

Craig: I loved your last post - the modern tools are cool and I love using them, but we are losing a bit of "staying power", and IMO, there's still a place for the older stuff. Balance and picking the proper tool for the job is the key IMO... IOW, I think it's short-sighted to stay stuck in an old school rut, but equally short sighted to overlook modern advancements and the possibilities that come along with those too.

[blue2blue]

 

Originally posted by boosh I usually have a 2ms latency delay delay,... So what you're saying is that's too much for ya?

 

 

boosh

 

I'm gonna get static for this -- but even the much shorter latency inherent in the "near-zero-latency" in the onboard DSPCueMix in my MOTU 828mkII bothers me. I assume this would be a similar latency to other basic digital mixers, but I really don't know what it is. It's much, much smaller than through the box latency.

 

The monitoring latency for Sonar is set at 2.9 ms for through-the-box monitoring and it is at the very outside edge of my ability to deal with that. Before I realized my buffer in the MOTU was set too conservatively (at 512 samples; I moved it down to 128) I had to run Sonar at something like 9.3 ms and it was simply unusable for me, going DI with guitar.

 

I realize someone is going to say, but that's just like having your amp 10 feet away... (speed of sound being 1102 ft/sec or so at sea level, yeah?) But I don't playwith my amp across the room. Call me cripple. Call me inflexible. Whatever. It's the way I am. I wish it wasn't so, because the concept of going DI into a amp sim plug is mightily appealing. I have a couple of decent amp sim plugs and they work pretty well for v-reamping things. It's kind of fun to throw a leslie and whatnot on (and heaven only knows what the plugs add in; of course, my baseline is going DI with no plugs. It's still problematic).

 

Anyhow, it's because I'm just not a good enough player that I can adjust to these latencies, okay? Please don't tell me I'm crazy and I don't hear such short time differentials. You can think it, if you want. But don't say it.

[Anderton]

There are people who find even shorter delays noticeable and objectionable. I find that once it gets below 5 ms, I'm happy with that. 10 ms is doable, but just.

 

Actually I spent so much time playing live that maybe hearing the amp several feet behind me is my definition of reality...possibly another issue is that when in the studio doing tracking, I'm usually wearing headphones so the sound is right at my ear, rather than coming from a speaker several feet away. And when I'm mixing or mastering through speakers, any small delay is irrelevant anyway.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Super 8 I would be concerned about reliability of the software, and durability of the laptop. I would think a Pod Live XT, or one of the other dedicated modeling devices would make much more sense. Certainly it makes more sense from an ecconomic standpoint.

Ditto. Thats what I do now.

[Alndln2]

No problems with reliability with Windows here or latencey(2.9ms),but there's still something not right right about the sound with all of these sims including the Pod,maybe for some things but overall I'll still choose any old amp over any simulation so far,and I'm not even that choosey any more.2 things,when they are able to simulate a magnetic coil near a speaker magnet for sustain and get rid of the current noise then it might be time for me to consider that option.

[Gus Lozada]

I'll jump in since I'm a virtual guitar FX and virtual synths on-stage guy.

 

WHY YES?

 

* Because by just bringing our laptop -actually two laptops-, 4 light weight midi controllers and 2 multi-channel portable audio interfaces we can make a lot of noise -our whole show runs in two laptops- and keep the setup to a minimum.

 

* All the FX changes can be automated so with a decent MIDI programming at home and rehearsals, you can just be focused into playing during a show and not dancing "la cucaracha" with the pedals.

 

* Latency? for my style of playing anything between 12 or 20 ms is still not noticeable. This might not appeal some tight players.

 

 

WHY NO?

 

* Maybe your computer is not exactly the fastest on earth and spending valuable CPU on live-audio processing might be too much to ask. Or perhaps you don't want to spend $2k USD on a computer, $500 on Software and $300 on an audio interface -it might be cheaper or way expensier- since you already have a hardware setup you love, even when that means doing several trips back and forth from the park lot to the venue.

 

* You have always to test your setup a thousand times prior to using it onstage and see how hard you can push it without crashes. Don't ever go onstage with a new piece of software, hardware or operating system update. Try before you play.

 

* The sound? Of course it sounds different. You don't have the same energy from a floor monitor or in-ears than having the actual wall of amps behind you and that MIGHT bother some fellows.

 

To me? I love the sound I get and since it's good enough for me and my music, I'm ok with it. I'm not a purist and I personally don't care if it really sounds like a B3 -with all details- or like a minimoog or like a stack of mesa-boogies crancked up to 11. If it sounds good and fit well in the mix, it goes.

 

The naked truth

 

I'd really love one day to get back to hardware. Real hardware. Would love to ask on my rider for all the rig my guitarist have ever dreamed off and laugh my axe off while asking the promoters to get a real B3, a real Rhodes, Minimoogs and Junos ... and then, using them together with my favorite soft synths, my computer's backing tracks and if the songs require it, using a virtual guitar rig when hardware just can't do.

 

My guitar player still uses his GT6 onstage. I'm the one using virtual stuff on guitars and synths. My Keyboardist plays virtual synths and one Micro Korg.

 

BTW... we use a micro korg for lead synths and vocoding. Spending 500 dollars in a -light weight, battery powered, cool-sounding- piece of hardware instead of using valuable CPU only for vocoding sounded like the best way to go.

 

Why not to have the best of both worlds?