How exactly were 70's CBS Fenders horrible?

[bikehorn]

I like the 70's ash Strat look and sound. IMO the big headstock is awesome. I'll take all the sustain I can get, please. A lot of non QC-related 70's Fender bashing is done by a mindless horde conditioned by "gurus" pontificating about their 50's and 60's Strats and how they just can't be equaled in sound. That said, I in no way condone bad QC.

 

Fender only sold to CBS because their growth was so explosive that they couldn't handle how huge the company was getting. In a few years their payroll had multiplied like fivefold or something. They needed money to expand in order to meet the demand, but like a lot of rapidly growing startup companies(hardly a "startup" by the time they sold, but that's when sales really picked up) they didn't have a lot of capital. Solution: sell the company to a corporation hoping they finance the operation and allow you to continue doing what you do. In this case, it didn't work out that way even though Leo stayed on as a consultant for a time. I think his last project was the Mustang Bass before he jumped ship and eventually started Music Man. Eventually that didn't work out either, so G&L was started.

[Anonymous Guy]

I've noticed that the 70's headstock seems to be a odd on and off feature on CBS strats.

 

The ones that don't have them still have the large bold fonts, which doesn't sit too well with the small headstock.

[csm]

One of the ironies in Fender's recent purchas of Kaman (home of Ovation guitars, among others) is that when Fender was up for sale at the end of the CBS era, Kaman were in the running to buy out Fender.

 

The only reason I bit the bullet and finally bought a pre-CBS Strat in 1980 was that I'd previously owned two late-model Strats, and tried many more, and they were all horrible. All I wanted was a decent Strat and, as far as I could tell at the time, CBS/Fender weren't making one. How were they horrible? Well ...

 

For a start, they were incredibly heavy. A bandmate of mine had a blond hardtail which weighed as much as a Precision Bass: in fact it weighed MORE than several other Precisions, both earlier and later. I played one (albeit unamplified) a couple of years ago and while it had a decent neck and the guy selling swore it had fine pickups), it was acoustically completely dead and the neck pocket was positively gaping. Plus both of the ones I'd owned in 1978-80 had sounded thin and weedy (you know, the way people who don't like Strats think all Strats sound) through my AC30, and you know the law: if a Strat sounds bad through a vintage AC30, it IS bad.

 

It was the Strats which suffered worst under CBS: funnily enough, the early-70s basses and some of the Teles were okay. My bass-playing ex-wife had a Precision and a Jazz, both from the early -- rather than late -- 70s, which were both fine instruments, and I had a couple of late 70s Teles which were sort-of-okay, though if aftermarket pickups had been as prevalent then as they are now, I'd've swapped those shrill screechy units out in a New York nanosecond.

 

One of the earlier posters in this thread praises his 70s RIs: probably with good reason. Said this before but I'll repeat it again: (most of) Fender's current 70s RIs are actually much better instruments than (most of) the originals. The absolute worst Strats in Fender's entire history were made between 74/75 and when the current management got things up to speed towards the end of the 80s. The absolute best Strats in Fender's history were made between 1954 and 1965 -- and in the past fifteen years.

 

In the words of Walt Whitman: I was the man, I suffered, I was there. If you weren't shopping for Strats in the late 70s, you have NO IDEA how {censored} the average brand-new Strat hanging on the wall of the average music shop really was. This is not just cork-sniffers' collective hype: they really were that dreadful.

 

And the best stuff the company's made since the back-in-the-day days is what they're making right now. Give me your budget -- be it low, medium or high -- parachute me into the West End of London, and I could meet you in three hours with a far better Strat than anything you could've found (outside of the vintage market) back in 1979.

[Anonymous Guy]

Very insightful. Though I have not had the chance to try an original 70's era Fender, I found the RIs to be quite competent instruments for the reason aforementioned - quality control. CBS was in it to turn a profit, not to produce quality instruments and apparently it showed. I find it a bit funny that the CBS employees realized it themselves and took it upon themselves to purchase the company and make it a separate entity. Maybe it wasn't so much that the plant couldn't produce quality instruments, moreso the fault lying on the shoulders of CBS' cost conscious choices.

 

Not to side-track the topic, but the issue of 80's Japanese Fender copies puzzles me. Obviously, their template was a reverse engineered CBS era Strat as evidenced by the presence of the 3-bolt tilt neck, large headstock, and the bullet truss - but how were these copies able to beat CBS Fender in terms of build quality when they were essentially carbon copies?

[csm]

 

Not to side-track the topic, but the issue of 80's Japanese Fender copies puzzles me. Obviously, their template was a reverse engineered CBS era Strat as evidenced by the presence of the 3-bolt tilt neck, large headstock, and the bullet truss - but how were these copies able to beat CBS Fender in terms of build quality when they were essentially carbon copies?

 

 

The problem wasn't necessarily the design: the 3-bolt headstock and micro-tilt work perfectly well if manufactured and assembled with care, which they weren't. The bullet truss rod looks 'orrible, but the same principle applies to modern Strats, which have an inconspicuous hole just above the nut. Remember, the pre-CBS Strats have the trussrod adjustment at the butt of the neck, which means unbolting the neck to tweak the rod: UNBELIEVABLE pain in the ass and one vintage design feature I majorly don't miss on modern instruments.

 

(Another 70s design feature I didn't mention in my earlier post was what Fender used to proudly call their 'Thick Skin' finish. (This is a gun, this is your foot ...) This dense poly was also liberally applied to all their maple boards, which meant that your fingers didn't get anywhere NEAR any actual wood. Now, of course, Fender make a selling point of their 'Thin Skin' finish.)

 

Where the Japanese companies (primarily Ibanez, Yamaha and Tokai) scored over Fender (and Gibson -- let's not let them off the hook for their crimes of the same era) was that their manufacturing standards were a great deal higher. (In the CBS aftermath, the new management shipped in some Fender Japan guitars and a few copies, and the guys at the Fender plant literally CRIED at how much better the Japanese products were). Plus the Japanese companies did a little under-the-hood tweaking as well.

[snglcoil]

Whilst I concur that Fender had some QC issues in the 70s which generally were a consequence from mass production, there are a lot of lightweight examples around that simply sound awesome. I owned a lot of 70s Fenders (Strats), for a while I bought them off ebay by the dozen just to keep the good ones and sell the others, rarely without a small profit btw. I experienced that the earlier the better, most 71-74 Strats I played were good to very good guitars. I finally kept three, a olympic white '72, a natural '73 and a black '75, all shown below (the '76 3tone sb hardtail shown was sold recently because I found out that I am not a hardtail guy when it comes to Strats). I have yet to see and play a better Fender Strat from any recent production (MIA and/or MIM), but that may just be me.

 

[GarysBlues]

I had a 78 Tele for some time. I liked the Tone on the guitar. But it was very heavy. It was a Boat Anchor at 13LBs.

 

That was the thinking during that period. That weight was equivilant to Sustain. Thats why you see so many heavy 70's Strats and Tele's.

 

Where 7-8lbs is the norm now. That was the inconsistancy in the 70;s.

[csm]

 

Whilst I concur that Fender had some QC issues in the 70s which generally were a consequence from mass production, there are a lot of lightweight examples around that simply sound awesome. I owned a lot of 70s Fenders (Strats), for a while I bought them off ebay by the dozen just to keep the good ones and sell the others, rarely without a small profit btw. I experienced that the earlier the better, most 71-74 Strats I played were good to very good guitars. I finally kept three, a olympic white '72, a natural '73 and a black '75, all shown below (the '76 3tone sb hardtail shown was sold recently because I found out that I am not a hardtail guy when it comes to Strats). I have yet to see and play a better Fender Strat from any recent production (MIA and/or MIM), but that may just be me.

 

 

Fair enough -- but I note that all your 70s Strats are from 1975 or earlier, before the true horror REALLY set in. It may be pure coincidence, but the seriously crappy ones I recall had the black plastic scratchplates, knobs and pickup covers. Even I am not sufficiently nutty to claim that the colours of plasticware has any effect on tone or construction, but there is a coincidence between the era of black bits and the era of through-the-bottom-of-the-barrel-and-into-a-whole-new-level-of-bottom quality.

 

If you're shopping for elderly Strats and you see a big-head model with black bits, that's the time to start waving the crucifix and garlic, and spraying the holy water.

 

Incidentally, you state that you bought them by the dozen in order to find a very few good ones. Back in the late 70s, I didn't have the time, money or energy to do that, so I simply bought a 1963 pre-CBS, which I still have and still love.

 

Repeat: the best ones are the old ones and the new ones. It's the stuff in between that's iffy.

[Professor Tom]

 

Fair enough -- but I note that all your 70s Strats are from 1975 or earlier, before the true horror REALLY set in. It may be pure coincidence, but the seriously crappy ones I recall had the black plastic scratchplates, knobs and pickup covers. Even I am not sufficiently nutty to claim that the colours of plasticware has any effect on tone or construction, but there is a coincidence between the era of black bits and the era of through-the-bottom-of-the-barrel-and-into-a-whole-new-level-of-bottom quality. If you're shopping for elderly Strats and you see a big-head model with black bits, that's the time to start waving the crucifix and garlic, and spraying the holy water. Incidentally, you state that you bought them by the dozen in order to find a very few good ones. Back in the late 70s, I didn't have the time, money or energy to do that, so I simply bought a 1963 pre-CBS, which I still have and still love. Repeat: the best ones are the old ones and the new ones. It's the stuff in between that's iffy.

 

 

 

The best ones are the old ones and the new ones, so true. That applies to Gibson as well.

[ajympt]

I've played a 78 Fender strat and compared it to my 83 Japanese sq squier "70's" strat -pretty much a copy of the older one-and I would have to say the Japanese one was a much better guitar from a workmanship standpoint-the fit and finish on this thing is really top notch-not so much the "real" one-I am quite happy I didn't spend over 1000 dollars for a lesser guitar- That said, I have seen a 70 something burst finish hardtail that looked perfect and made me want to waste money on it- its just like looking at any guitar-buy the guitar, not the name on the headstock.

[kentuckyklira]

I have a few CBS Fenders and they

[Ancient Mariner]

 

Fair enough -- but I note that all your 70s Strats are from 1975 or earlier, before the true horror REALLY set in. It may be pure coincidence, but the seriously crappy ones I recall had the black plastic scratchplates, knobs and pickup covers. Even I am not sufficiently nutty to claim that the colours of plasticware has any effect on tone or construction, but there is a coincidence between the era of black bits and the era of through-the-bottom-of-the-barrel-and-into-a-whole-new-level-of-bottom quality.

 

 

+1 to that.

 

I remember the other guitar player I was in a band with buying a New Ash strat in '79 with the black PG etc. At that time I was playing a Danelectro copy with lipstick PUs through an AC30. First shock was that it weighed at least 3 times as much as my Dynelectron. Second shock was that the pickups were so thin and weak (and this is compared to lipstick PUs) as to sound really pathetic.

 

It *looked* gorgeous, but I couldn't give it back fast enough.

 

FWIW it replaced a Shergold Masquerader, so it wasn't a downgrade.

[Blackbelt1]

 

I like the 70's ash Strat look and sound. IMO the big headstock is awesome. I'll take all the sustain I can get, please. A lot of non QC-related 70's Fender bashing is done by a mindless horde conditioned by "gurus" pontificating about their 50's and 60's Strats and how they just can't be equaled in sound. That said, I in no way condone bad QC.

 

 

That's true. A lot of the 70's bashing I read is from folks who have never actually played a Strat from that era. I owned several CBS Strats in the late 70's and early 80's and haven't personally encountered neck pocket issues or heaviness with any of them. The Antigua one that I posted was my last one from that era and it had a terrific neck.

 

~Blackbelt

[cephus]

From about 1987 to '89, I had a late 70s keith richards tele (the custom or deluxe - I forget). It totally sucked. The edges of the fret board were very sharp. Maple neck was really white and had banjo frets. It was really heavy and sounded like {censored}. I ended up selling it cheap even though it was the only real gosh darned fender I owned.

 

I never had any issues with the fit/finish. I thought that even if it was perfect, it'd be a perfect piece of {censored}.

 

Don't judge a book by its cover. Even if it is a "vintage" guitar, it can still be a total piece of {censored}.

[BootRoots]

Fender only sold to CBS because their growth was so explosive that they couldn't handle how huge the company was getting. In a few years their payroll had multiplied like fivefold or something. They needed money to expand in order to meet the demand, but like a lot of rapidly growing startup companies(hardly a "startup" by the time they sold, but that's when sales really picked up) they didn't have a lot of capital. Solution: sell the company to a corporation hoping they finance the operation and allow you to continue doing what you do.

 

 

what? everything I have ever read about the sale to CBS sited Leo's constant health issues as the reason for the sale. He then went into early retirment that lasted oh, about 2 months before feeling better and getting back to work. I haven't heard about expansion issues before.

[metalheadUK]

I have heard that quality during the CBS era slid mainly due to bosses wanting to cut production costs.

 

The guitars got heavier, as the wood quality went down, the 3 bolt neck coupled with sloppy neck pockets meant the necks were always shifting ( a well cut neck pocket solves the 3 bolt problems completely...check out any modern 3 bolt reissues..lovely stable necks), Fender "forgot" how to shape a Telecaster body correctly (the upper bout area where it meets the neck was altered slightly), and they started winding the pickups with so few turns of wire that they sounded anemic and underpowered.

 

There are good ones out there, and their desireability as a collectable is increasing as prices on the pre CBS stuff become prohibitive, but there are a LOT of clunkers out there...

 

[GarysBlues]

BTW Have you seen the PRICE's on the EARLY 70's with the 7-8LB weight? They exceed Custom Shop price's now. Something to think about. The 60 NOS Custom Shop is one HELL of a Strat for what $2300.

[Psychotronic]

I have a '72 Strat that sounds unbelievable -- thick and punchy, while still retaining that Fender snap.

[lechip]

I have to agree with some of the comments here.

I have a 77 Strat (Naturel finish 3 bolt with black pickguard) and I also have a new Classic Player 60s Mexican Strat. I have to say that the CP 60s Strat hands down is a much better guitar than the 77 in all ways.

the 77 is HEAVY and "weedy" sounding as one poster put it.

I won't sell the 77 though because it is increasing in value so fast. who knew this would happen?

I walked into GC last week and they had a 77 exactly like mine hanging on the wall for $1800. WOW!! Unbelievable!!!

[csm]

 

I walked into GC last week and they had a 77 exactly like mine hanging on the wall for $1800. WOW!! Unbelievable!!!

 

 

Damn right it's unbelievable. The only reason we ever developed a vintage guitar market in the first place is because the old ones were really good and the newer ones were {censored}. Now the 'newer ones' from that era are now the old ones commanding vintage prices even though the late-model stuff coming out right now is way better. And, praise Jah, cheaper.

 

So leave those guitars to the suckers who think they're getting a better instrument jusy 'cause it's old, and to the profiteers stockpiling the horrible things so that they can make money out of the suckers. Back in the dark days, I bought my first vintage Strat because it was the best thing I could get for the money. Nowadays, the best thing I can buy in a store will be either brand-new or recent-used.

[GilmourD]

Here are pics of that '72 Tele pickup with the "cardboard" base I mentioned earlier. Actually it's not a bad sounding pickup, but there are many other models on the market now that I prefer. In the early 70's we talked about how the early Strats ('63 and before) were the "real deal". Mid to late 60's weren't sought after at all. Who knew what they would sell for now.

 

That looks like a normal Tele pickup to me. They were always made out of fiberboard, but sometimes Fender changed the color of the bottom piece. There has actually been red fiberboard in use.

 

The only thing is that it seems your pickup is missing the bottom plate. You can buy one and add it to the pickup if you'd like and it would affect the tone a bit.

[Edward]

I've noticed that the 70's headstock seems to be a odd on and off feature on CBS strats. The ones that don't have them still have the large bold fonts, which doesn't sit too well with the small headstock.

 

Opinions vary, I guess - I love that look. The big headstock first came in in 65, though for the first year or so under CBS they were usuing up a lot of old stock bodies and necks and other bits, so I'm sure some small headstock guitars must have been made then. AFAIK, it continued in production until 1980 when the smaller headstock was reintroduced and remains today.

 

I think the reason (well, apart from Hendrix's influence... ) I really love the big headstock is that it renders the headstock shape functional. When Leo designed the Strat, it was totally utilitarian in concept. The shaep of the body, the trem.... everything is there because it has a purpose, not merely to look good. Exception to this was the headstock shape. Ironic that the thing that now is arguably one of the most iconic bits of the Strat - the headstock outline - was probably the least original bit on it to begin with, being very similar to the original Paul Bigsby solid body electrics. Anyhow. Along come CBS, and they make the headstock bigger so it can sport a bigger branding label: blammo, the headstock shape is now a functional design rather than purely a cosmetic thing. Well, that's how I choose to see it, anyhow...

[DonK]

I bought a half-dozen new Fenders from '72 to '76. Typical problems included:

 

- Poor neck pocket fit

- Neck movement, whether because of the 3-bolt neck I couldn't say, but Strat necks in particular seemed to move all over the place

- Misaligned bridges, especially on Teles

- Poorly machined hardware

 

Not a golden era for Fender. I had a pair of '72 Tele Customs that I bought new in '72. The two Mexi versions I bought 25 years later had better build quality.

[heyhey]

I played and briefly owned a '73 strat that was perfect. Then I bought a '78-'79 hunk of junk. It wieghed a ton( maybe 12lbs. it was barely contoured), broke strings if you looked at it, the thick black finish turned green in the sun light, and yes it had the black pick guard. The maple neck was OK but the finish got way sticky. The pick ups had a nice clear tone, I pulled them and put in some nicer Jap Squire p/u's then traded for a crappy Ibenze and a hundred$. I paid $650 new @'82 ( the neck was '78, the body '79 ) from a music store near Reno. I don't miss it too much. Now I have a great SBw matte finished maple neck '98 AM Standard, MIM strat( with the '78 p/u's ) a '89 Les Paul and about 10 other nice axes. Man that guitar looked nice, but set my playing back about ten years. I should have played "wild thing" with at "burning man" but it's gone 19 yrs. now.

[iplayanesp]

i have a freind with a sweet ass early 70s strat that sits in a cse under his bed.

 

he dosnt play. i want that {censored}.