Well Gibson is not the only one

[docjeffrey]

a lot of countries are aware, but it seems china doesn't care. they are one big massive coal cloud over there.

 

Yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait a minute. We were just like China at one time in our not too distant past. Remember when you could walk across the East River and could live in LA for your entire life without realizing that it was surrounded by 10,000' mountains?

 

 

And weren't the high plains of my home state home to millions of bison?

 

 

China will figure everything out when they run out of things to manufacture sort of like we did. Maybe they'll even figure out that you can dupe thousands of idiots into thinking they can afford a $300,000 home when they only make $30,000 a year:idea:

[relva3]

Yeah. Oh, wait a minute. We were just like China at one time in our not too distant past. Remember when you could walk across the East River and could live in LA for your entire life without realizing that it was surrounded by 10,000' mountains? And weren't the high plains of my home state home to millions of bison? China will figure everything out when they run out of things to manufacture sort of like we did. Maybe they'll even figure out that you can dupe thousands of idiots into thinking they can afford a $300,000 home when they only make $30,000 a year:idea:

i like your optimism, and i think in time china will change. it will especially change more for the better as technology gets better with our fuel and energy.

[Professor Tom]

hmmn... an interesting speculative question... which of course draws out my 2 pesos wurth .. here is my speculative answer... the mahogany traditionally used for Les Pauls and also the PRS guitars were of the South American variety ..usually from Honduras and/or Brazil these woods have been used so much in the past (not just for guitars but for furniture as well) that the supply of such mahogany was bound to be limited at some point when supply is limited and demand remains equal or worse still rise.. then the cost of that particular type of mahogany can ONLY RISE. ie the manufacturers will then have to pay more (and in some cases MUCH MORE) than what they are used to paying in the most dire scenarios the manufacturers cannot even obtain enough supply for a typical production run...this will then add to the COST of the guitar and consequently the RETAIL PRICE of the guitar in times where the market for new guitars is SOFT and/or extremely discriminating (read.. ppl go for bang for buck rather than pay premium for 'great guitars') such an addition to the bottom line in the cost of the guitar invites failure to hold market share ...because other cheaper guitars will fill the demand..this in turn invites disaster upon said manufacturers enter.. 'mahogany' from places other than South America e.g. Asian mahogany.. or even African mahogany these woods are in plentiful supply atm because they were not used in the past the way Honduras and Brazilian mahogany was utilised however, there is a small problem with using such substitutes.. and that is the varying weight factor relative to the South American varieties. This could be due to many causes (lack of drying/minerals in the earth/natural differences/etc etc)..but that is moot. It is the variation in weight and espc the tendency for quite significant quantities to be relatively 'heavy' that SPOILS it for manufacturers intending to use such a substitute to save the day (ie keep costs low..and thus keep market share for their BRAND..and thus ensure profitability of manufacturer stays the same or even improve to some extent) enter.. 'chambering' , or 'weight relieving' concepts which serves to keep the ONLY distinguishing factor between South American mahogany and other types of mahogany OUT of the guitar players' zone of attention (a limited zone mind you..but even stoned out guitar playas notice the heavier guitar they now slug around) unfortunately .. such 'chambering' and 'weight relieving' can potentially alter the tone of the guitar to such an extent as to be no longer the 'tone' created by the original Saouth American mahogany type guitars in the first place moreover, some chambering methods do alter the stabilty of the wood around the BRIDGE area ...espc if chambering goes real close to the BRIDGE 'pins' of course many would say...'bah...cork sniffer...it dunt make a difference' ... well ok... but dunt you then turn around and spray me wiv 'but my long tenon sounds better than yer short tenon' BS in any case, the use of 'substitutes' for 'the real thing' is what causes all the angst ..espc when combined with methods that essentially serve to HIDE the obvious differences between the 'substitute' and the 'real thing' ------------------------------- this also explains why certain models make it OBVIOUS in the advertising that they use the 'lighter mahogany' and charges a premium for it these are usually the HIGH END models ,.. which of course HAS NO chambering because it is not required REAL South American mahogany has been used here.. the public advertising for the hollowed/chambered/weight relieved models particularly from Gibson make NO mention in the marketing of such a change in construction leading some folks to accuse them of passing such items off as the 'real thing' when they plainly are not. Moreover, such Les Pauls are often listed in the SOLIDBODY sections of electric guitars in popular online guitar retail spots ..which is laughable at best...and fraudulent at worst. i would imagine MOST of the public will not even realise or know that current non custom shop LP's are actually (semi)hollow/chambered inside. ---------------------------------- my 2 pesos wurth of course .

Gentlemen, this is the correct answer. It is also worth pointing out that only makers of relatively small numbers of guitars can still realistically use Honduran or Brazilian mahogany although Gibson still do for their "special" customers.

[docjeffrey]

This is what I got from the Gibson forum. This applies to the Custom Shop only.

 

_________________________________________________________

 

Current Replies for "Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction?"

Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (TedB)

Posted: 12:18:44 on 8 19 2003 Modified: 12:24:11 on 8 19 2003

Admin,

 

Someone has been suggesting in another forum that the source of mahogany was changed circa 2001, citing differences between pre and post 2001 Historic 'mahogany grain'. Could you please explain or debunk? Thanks in advance.

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (admin)

Posted: 1:18:24 on 8 19 2003 Modified: 1:18:36 on 8 19 2003

Ted,

the mahogany we use today is still the same South American mahogany we have been using since the 50s...this has never changed as far as I know.

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (TedB)

Posted: 2:39:01 on 8 19 2003 Modified: 2:41:13 on 8 19 2003

I believe the general consensus is that it came from Honduras (?) in the '50s, but current speculation suggests there was change in the source circa 2001. I don't know one way or another, but my hunch is that if there was, you might be aware of it.

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (sinvedi)

Posted: 8:53:19 on 8 19 2003 Modified: Never

I read that thread too. It didn't really seem to make that much sense, but sounded like a "things aren't as good as they used to be" crock.

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (charlie1)

Posted: 12:21:19 on 8 21 2003 Modified: Never

I was wondering how this part of the reply on the bumble bee caps squares against the "same species of mohagany" statement made above. This from edwin wilson.

 

Earlier on in this I said I appreciate all input and I do; it helps all of us at Gibson make better decisions about the product. But I still find it amazing that some people still think that someone is out to get them. I remember '80s Les Pauls that were not even the right shape, had the wrong necks, peghead shapes, routes, made from African Mahogany not even the same species, wrong binding size, wrong hardware and at that time this is what the company offered as a reissue style guitar!

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (charlie1)

Posted: 1:39:05 on 8 23 2003 Modified: Never

no response to above?

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (admin)

Posted: 8:54:56 on 8 25 2003 Modified: Never

charlie,

edwin is out of town all this week, then I'm out all next week. I'll try to get him to clear this up, but it's going to be a while before I see him...

 

Re: Mahogany Source - Fact or Fiction? (admin)

Posted: 9:35:33 on 8 26 2003 Modified: Never

Charlie,

Edwin popped his head in the door this morning, and here's his response: South American mahogany was used in the 50s, 60s, and from the late 80s to the present. The African mahogany I mentioned was part of the Norlin era (70s and early 80s) set of specs, and one of the reasons why Norlin-era Gibsons have a less that stellar reputation.

 

Hope that clears things up...

[sixthscale]

I

[BootRoots]

I

[Virgman]

Some tips on tonewoods:

African mahogany is heavier. As a result it can resonate higher and allow for faster scale runs.

 

Thus it is superior for fast playing or what is known as "shredding".

 

South American mahogany in contrast, being lighter, has a better sustain and is superior for spicy, latin rhythms.

 

Asian mahogany is cheaper. Thus less expensive guitars can be made from it.

 

With Asian mahogany you can literally buy guitars until you feel totally satisfied. Be aware, however, that this feeling will not last. In a few weeks your hunger for more guitars will return.

 

I suggest some of each type for a balanced palette of musical styles.

 

[Virgman]

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/Chambering%20the%20Les%20Paul_%20A%20Mar/

 

"Les Pauls in the Custom Shop

[RoboPimp]

what about edwards and tokai LPs, I see people mention that these are light, are they weight relieved or made from honduran mahogany?

[NiCkMiLnE]

only one what... to over-charge for their instruments?

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Some tips on tonewoods: African mahogany is heavier. As a result it can resonate higher and allow for faster scale runs. Thus it is superior for fast playing or what is known as "shredding". South American mahogany in contrast, being lighter, has a better sustain and is superior for spicy, latin rhythms. Asian mahogany is cheaper. Thus less expensive guitars can be made from it.

Where on earth did you get ^^^ from?

As a generalisation African mahogany (Khyaya spp) is lighter ~32lbs cu ft, Honduran ~36 lbs cu ft.
However select Honduran is as low as 30lbs cu ft, but that is a very small percentile
The majority of weight difference in MIJ LPs is the volume of maple used on it

[csm]

a lot of countries are aware, but it seems china doesn't care. they are one big massive coal cloud over there.

 

 

Statistically, though, America still leads the world in terms of pollution emissions per head of the population.

[Doctor Morbius]

Happy New X-Ray Machine Day!

Found these on The Gear Page. PRS Singlecuts:

[_pete_]

Statistically, though, America still leads the world in terms of pollution emissions per head of the population.

 

 

 

Sorry, it must be from the chili I had yesterday.

[Virgman]

Where on earth did you get ^^^ from? As a generalisation African mahogany (Khyaya spp) is lighter ~32lbs cu ft, Honduran ~36 lbs cu ft. However select Honduran is as low as 30lbs cu ft, but that is a very small percentile The majority of weight difference in MIJ LPs is the volume of maple used on it

 

I just made it up.

 

It's a joke.

 

:poke:

 

However, as we all know, it is not politically correct to make generalizations about tonewoods.

[32-20-Blues]

hmmn... an interesting speculative question... which of course draws out my 2 pesos wurth .. here is my speculative answer............ ..........my 2 pesos wurth of course .

I'm not going to quote it all, because it was a long post, but this is the correct answer. It's nothing to do with shipping.

Mahogany of the correct eight is no longer available at a price that major guitar manufacturers are willing to pay. they buy cheaper timber that is invariably less consistent with regard to weight, and then chamber it.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

However, as we all know, it is not politically correct to make generalizations about tonewoods.

Pffffffffft....sorry:cry:

[csm]

Sorry, it must be from the chili I had yesterday.

 

 

Hah! We name the guilty men!

["sasquatch"]

where is the fetus?

[Weathered]

Some tips on tonewoods: African mahogany is heavier. As a result it can resonate higher and allow for faster scale runs. Thus it is superior for fast playing or what is known as "shredding". South American mahogany in contrast, being lighter, has a better sustain and is superior for spicy, latin rhythms. Asian mahogany is cheaper. Thus less expensive guitars can be made from it. With Asian mahogany you can literally buy guitars until you feel totally satisfied. Be aware, however, that this feeling will not last. In a few weeks your hunger for more guitars will return. I suggest some of each type for a balanced palette of musical styles.

We all know that African mahogany is known to have a "girthier" tone compared to the rest of the tonewoods.

[DaveAronow]

Sorry, it must be from the chili I had yesterday.

 

I can fart a tune of four simultaneous harmonies.

[warriorpoet]

Statistically, though, America still leads the world in terms of pollution emissions per head of the population.

...because China has more people

[soundcreation]

Okay I need to ask a question then. If gibson claims in that article someone posted that people like the lighter weight better and the chambered guitars have better tone sustain etc because they've put all this thought into it blah blah blah...

The wouldn't it stand to reason that chambering their CS / historic lines would increase the quality of these to an even higher level than the traditional solid models? So then why are they quick to advertise those high end ones as non chambered? (as someone else posted) I don't get it if it's suppose to be a superior method of guitar construction.....something seems fishy here.

[Virgman]

We all know that African mahogany is known to have a "girthier" tone compared to the rest of the tonewoods.

 

Most women won't admit it, but they like a bigger, more robust tone.

 

[csm]

wouldn't it stand to reason that chambering their CS / historic lines would increase the quality of these to an even higher level than the traditional solid models? So then why are they quick to advertise those high end ones as non chambered? (as someone else posted) I don't get it if it's suppose to be a superior method of guitar construction.....something seems fishy here.

 

 

Presumably because the concept of the vintage-reissue products is to get them as close to original spec as possible, while introducing the modern refinements into their 'regular' lines. At least, that's the way Fender seem to do it: modern hardware and wiring variations appear on their standard/deluxe lines rather than on the vintage-reissue instruments.