Members Freeman Keller Posted September 5, 2015 Members Share Posted September 5, 2015 In my "career" as an amateur instrument repair person I get to see some pretty interesting problems. Recently the store that I work for presented me with this little jewel its a Rogue double neck 6 string / 12 string and the 12 string neck was coming loose. I pulled the neck p/u and this is what I saw Basically its a set neck that the glue joint had failed, somebody had attempted to repair it by pouring some epoxy on top of the neck tenon. I gave the store an estimate to fix it and to restring and set up both necks, not really expecting the owner to go for it. I got a call back that the repairs had been authorized - so I guess I was committed. The only thing holding the neck in place was a small bit of the epoxy - I cut thru that with a sharp chisel and the neck fell out of the pocket. It was immediately obvious why it had failed - there was a small amount of glue on the end of the tenon, non on the sides where there was still paint. Both the body and tenon had some sort of finish on it - probably the prime coat. The body looked to be bass wood. To make matters much worse, the necks on this guitar have a full 24 frets and join the body at the 21st fret for the 12 string, 22nd for the 6. That means that the necks stick out of the body by almost 2-1/2 inches more than a typical electric guitar which joins at the 16th fret. Add to that the massive weight of the 12 string neck (with full size tuners) and the fact that the tenon is only about 2-1/2 inch long ( a Les Paul is 4) and you have one of the weakest neck joints I can imagine. I mean, lets be realistic, how many people need 24 frets on a 12 string? I measured the strings before cutting them off - they looked to be 0.010 to 0.046 - what would be considered a medium electric 12 string set - this calculates to about 210 pounds of tension. No wonder it failed. The repair is to try to get the best glue job I can with what I've got to work with. I cleaned up all the old glue and paint from tenon, pocket and sides of the neck. The neck was wobbly in the pocket - I put two little shims on the sides to tighten that up (they are 0.015 thick to give you an idea of how loose it was) Did a dry run clamping everything together and checking the neck angle Spread a nice coat of AR glue in the cavity and clamped it up. I've got a padded block of wood on the back to protect the finish from the big c-clamps I like to see good glue squeeze out around the joint The finish around the fretboard got pretty beat up - I'm not going to be able to make it perfect but I can hide it a bit with some black CA glue Finally, restring both the necks and do a basic setup. The 6 string neck had way too much relief, the 12 string neck was slightly back bowed. They have ToM bridges but the saddles on the 12 string are not individually adjustable - I intonated the primary strings and just let the octaves be a little sharp (can any one here explain why they are sharp rather than flat?). Some of you followed my question thread about 12 string gauges - I made a custom set of 0.009 to 0.042 string by adding singles to a normal electric light gauge set. Here it is cleaned up and ready to go back to the owner One thing that is interesting (and scary) is that I can move both necks back and forth enough to go a full semi tone sharp or flat - those neck joints simply aren't adequate for the stress on them. Will they fail in the future - I would think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jtr654 Posted September 5, 2015 Members Share Posted September 5, 2015 You get what you pay for as far as these cheap guitars are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted September 5, 2015 Members Share Posted September 5, 2015 Beautiful work as always Mr Freeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdsmithtx Posted September 6, 2015 Members Share Posted September 6, 2015 Great job! I always love reading your build/repair threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 7, 2015 Members Share Posted September 7, 2015 . . . I intonated the primary strings and just let the octaves be a little sharp (can any one here explain why they are sharp rather than flat?). . . . Probably because the octaves are bigger around than the cores of the associated primaries. That said, nice to see another Freeman Keller adventure in guitar repair. As usual, you did the best you could under challenging circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 7, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 7, 2015 Probably because the octaves are bigger around than the cores of the associated primaries. That said, nice to see another Freeman Keller adventure in guitar repair. As usual, you did the best you could under challenging circumstances. Bingo. And thanks The octaves are all plain strings - the low E octave for example is a 0.026P while the primary is a 0.042W. The core of the wound string is much smaller than the plain one. Sharpening under tension is a function of core wire diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted September 7, 2015 Members Share Posted September 7, 2015 Nice job. I remember when those Rogues came out. They were like $400 bucks new and they are built cheaply and like you said, those necks will fail again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 8, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 Nice job. I remember when those Rogues came out. They were like $400 bucks new and they are built cheaply and like you said, those necks will fail again.[/QU I can't buy four SD humbuckers, a couple of ToM bridges, 18 Grover (knockoff) tuners and a few feet of fretwire for four hundred bucks - how do they do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 The previous owner of that guitar modded the hell out of it. Here's the what it looked like orginally although a different color. https://reverb.com/item/292322-rouge-double-neck-12-6-string-lava-burst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 That repair should so the trick. Good work. Rogue does make some pretty dodgy gear. I have one of their electric Sitars, a copy of the Jerry Jones. The top is beginning to warp up badly. There's really not much I can do about it either. Its a semi hollow body with no bridge block. The wood has a vinyl coating on it. I put a temporary block wedged between the top and back but all that does is cause the back to bow out. It robs it of some of its sound too. Besides the 6 strings its got a 12 string harp (zither setup) which is fairly useless. The strings are so close together its nearly impossible to pick single notes. At this point its still playable and it does get that classic Electric sitar tone, but I'm stuck for making any kind of reliable repairs.The only salvation for the original body it might be to glue in some bracing. The top has no bracing at all which is pretty ridiculous considering the string tension. The other option is to build a new body. I may wind up cutting the top off the original body and gluing a new top on. (with bracing this time) its just a hell of a job that will likely wait till its in worse shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 8, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't think he modified anything. Both guitars have humbuckers - the one In your picture has covers on the 12 string side, mine had about every color that Seymour Duncan makes, The switches look the same, hardware is the same - the back cavity covers still had the clear plastic on them. Wiring was crammed into the cavities but I think it was factory. Setup was marginal, strings were old and tarnished, truss rod covers missing - the only "mod" was the epoxy in the neck cavity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 What I'm tell you is they didn't come with Seymour Duncan pickups. They replaced the pickups. Go to Musiciansfriend and search Rogue. They are cheap guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 I have a Galveston Triple Neck that is ridiculously well built. But it's a real beast to play: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 I played a Rogue bass once and it wasn't bad But you could tell them were cheap instruments. The finish felt like plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 yeah that that thing doesn't look like it would be easy to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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