difference between 12 inch speaker and 10 inch

[mbengs1]

i have two amps, one with a matching 2x12 cab. and a marshall combo with 3 10 inch speakers. what are the differences in tone between the two size of speakers? i found that the 10 inch speakers have stronger midrange and the 12 inch seems to hit harder, what else?

[DeepEnd]

All else being equal, which it isn't, a 12" will go lower and a 10" will have less tendency to "beam." Again, all else being equal, a 12" will generally get louder because it has a larger cone. But you don't buy amps (or guitars) with a ruler, you buy them with your ears and eyes and hands. If it sounds and feels right, it's right.

[onelife]

I started out playing through 2x12 open back cabinets including a Fender Pro Reverb and a Twin Reverb. I liked the sound of the 12s and expected 10s to have a little less weight to the sound.

 

My first experience with 10s was when I sat in with some friends at a gig and played through a Super Reverb tilted back on its legs. I expected it to sound similar to the Twin but not as big. I was surprised when the 4x10 sounded more like one very large speaker and was less directional than what I was used to.

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

To me, it's less about the "bigness" and bottom end of the 12" vs 10" and more about focus... a 12 can sound bigger and fuller, while 10s tend to sound a bit more focused, less flabby, and with a tighter, punchier midrange. The bass and kick drum should have the bottom covered - I'm more interested in those mids.

 

That's about as general as I can go with it... of course, it really will depend on which specific 12 and 10" speakers we're talking about.

 

[onelife]

I had a couple of blackface Vibrolux Reverb Amps that I didn't appreciate as much as I should have. I traded one for a Pro Reverb because I was also playing Fender Rhodes and I thought the 12s would be a better fit.

 

I traded the other Vibrolux to a guy who was on a quest for the perfect guitar tone because I thought it would help him. I was looking for more power in those days and ended up with a Twin and a pair of EVM12s.

[Tomm Williams]

To me, it's less about the "bigness" and bottom end of the 12" vs 10" and more about focus... a 12 can sound bigger and fuller, while 10s tend to sound a bit more focused, less flabby, and with a tighter, punchier midrange. The bass and kick drum should have the bottom covered - I'm more interested in those mids.

 

That's about as general as I can go with it... of course, it really will depend on which specific 12 and 10" speakers we're talking about.

 

And it's that very point that makes me wonder if any concrete opinions can be offered. I think you could easily find as many differences among speakers of the same size as you can comparing speakers of different sizes. Then add in different guitars, FX, etc........ IMO it largely becomes interesting conversation with no real answers. Of course other than what your ears tell you is the best sound for you.

[WRGKMC]

You really cant make factual assumptions based on size without also knowing the speaker types you're comparing. I have about twenty 10's currently. Some high wattage 10's with beefy cones can kick nearly as hard as a 12 if its it the right cab

 

As a general comparison using comparable speakers of similar wattage, frequency response same manufacturer build, properly ratio cab comparisons etc, the tens have a higher string touch sensitivity because the cones are lighter and therefore have less inertia then 12's.

The distance they project while retaining their full frequency response is shorter as well.

 

I run a 4X12 and a 4X10 cab together in the studio all the time. I like recording both so I have mixing options. I run each cab with a separate head so I can dial up very similar frequency responses. Standing directly in front of them it may be difficult to hear the differences, other then one has a smaller footprint.

 

Where they really begin to differ is when you step away from the cabs 5', 10', 20' or more. The 12's retain their bass response a much longer distance from the cab. the 10's begin to loose a fair amount of their bottom end at maybe 10' and retain a fair amount of mids and highs.

 

I close mic the amps and use headphones to balance their tones and levels to sound similar so I know what's being produced right at the speaker is a close match. I can A/B compare the tracks and only with some careful analysis do I detect a slight roll off on the bass end of the 10's.

Farther away from the cabs its obvious how differently they project.

 

The magic of 10's over 12's comes down to this. The proximity effect of the speakers is approximately half the distance with the 10's.

 

In my case I use allot of sympathetic sustain from the speakers to get my string vibrations to regenerate to produce those Santana/Hendrix type string sustains. I use the distance from the cabs and guitar angle as a means of selecting the frequencies that produce the regeneration.

 

If for example I stand 5' from the cabinet with the 10's I get certain notes to regenerate. In front of the 12's I need to nearly double the distance from the cab to get those same notes to occur.

 

This is very similar to what happens when you use different microphones. Most people who have sung through a mic notice the bass and treble response increase and the gain ramp up quickly as they get up close to the mic. If they were to use a condenser mic in a similar situation, they would notice how the frequency response and gain remain fairly flat at a much longer distance from the mic.

 

The difference between 10's and 12's has some of these characteristics. (which is why I call it a proximity effect) The 10's and 12's can be dialed up to produce the same tones right up close but the 12's will retain the full response at a longer distance, and the 10's will disperse the bass sooner and wind up being upper mids and highs because those frequencies tend to travel in a straight line until they strike something to reflect them.

 

 

So the bottom line is simple common sense. If you play on a small stage and you are up close to your amp, 10" may be the better choice because the sound from the speakers fully formulates at a shorter distance on a shorter stage. 12's are better on a big stage where you have a fair amount of distance from the cab to allow the full frequency response to formulate.

 

Again, the 10's have less inertia so the strings snap more lively. It one of the reasons I love using them for lead guitar. 12" have more inertia and therefore compress and smooth sharp transients. I love the way they sound clean on guitar chords and can give an electric an acoustic guitar tone.

 

Of course its all a matter of relative aspect. As I said you have all kinds of 10's, 12's, and 15's for that matter a light weight 12 can sound better then a heavy weight 10 so you have to compare large apples with small apples for what I've said here to be relative.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

And it's that very point that makes me wonder if any concrete opinions can be offered. I think you could easily find as many differences among speakers of the same size as you can comparing speakers of different sizes. Then add in different guitars, FX, etc........ IMO it largely becomes interesting conversation with no real answers. Of course other than what your ears tell you is the best sound for you.

 

 

I totally agree Tomm!

[Tomm Williams]

And after giving this some more thought..........................I'm wondering if there could be found a perfect pairing (or quad) of 10's and 12's that provide the best of both characteristics in a single cabinet ?

[WRGKMC]

And after giving this some more thought..........................I'm wondering if there could be found a perfect pairing (or quad) of 10's and 12's that provide the best of both characteristics in a single cabinet ?

 

There have been many attempts. Fender and others have put 12's 10's and 15's together in various open backed cab combinations over the years.

 

So long as the SPL and frequency responses are a fairly close match and the cabinet air volume in the cab is right for the speakers it works.

 

Where you do have a problem is in closed backed cabs. 12's are going to breathe more due to the extended piston movement. A smaller speaker has a smaller piston and likely a weaker coil. The suction/compression power of a larger speaker may cause a smaller speaker piston to struggle. This can lead to unwanted distortions. In an opened back cab you don't have that issue.

 

This is why sealed cabs usually use matching speakers of the same kind. Most sealed cabs that combine different sizes like say a 15 and 2X10's will have two cabs in one. The 10's are sealed in one section and the 15" in another.

 

If course the additional lumber needed to build the separately sealed compartments add to the weight. An SVT cab for example uses 4 separate compartments with 2X10's each. You practically need a fork lift to move those darn cabs around.

 

In Hi Fi stuff you have the same issues. The woofer will usually use most of the air in the cab. Mids and tweeters will often have sealed backs which isolate their diaphragms from the woofer sucking air in the rest of the box or the box may have separately sealed compartments, otherwise that woofer would inhale and suck the fragile diaphragm right out of the small speakers.

[Phil O'Keefe]

And after giving this some more thought..........................I'm wondering if there could be found a perfect pairing (or quad) of 10's and 12's that provide the best of both characteristics in a single cabinet ?

 

Are you thinking of a dual-speaker cabinet with one 10" and one 12" driver and/or a quad speaker cabinet with two 10s and two 12s?

 

That might be interesting...

[DeepEnd]

Are you thinking of a dual-speaker cabinet with one 10" and one 12" driver and/or a quad speaker cabinet with two 10s and two 12s?

 

That might be interesting...

There are amps with mismatched speakers (usually 2X12) so it should be possible to pair up a 12 and a 10, especially in an open backed cabinet. For example, the Celestion G10 Gold and G12 Century Vintage have the same sensitivity (98 dB), similar power handling (40W and 60W RMS), and similar frequency responses (80Hz-6KHz, 75Hz-5KHz). It could be an interesting pairing.

[Tomm Williams]

Yes Phil, given that each size perhaps has its own appeal, is there a potential

combination that might offer something different ?

[Tomm Williams]

I have a spare Univox U1000 head that was just tuned up at Fargen Amps that doesn't have a purpose. Something completely different than my other cabs like a 10-12 might be interesting.

[Phil O'Keefe]

There are amps with mismatched speakers (usually 2X12) so it should be possible to pair up a 12 and a 10, especially in an open backed cabinet. For example, the Celestion G10 Gold and G12 Century Vintage have the same sensitivity (98 dB), similar power handling (40W and 60W RMS), and similar frequency responses (80Hz-6KHz, 75Hz-5KHz). It could be an interesting pairing.

 

You hit most of the concerns I'd have - specifically wattage ratings and especially sensitivity. If one or the other was more efficient by a considerable amount, you'd hear that one primarily, and much less of the other speaker... but outside of that, there's no reason why you can't do it as long as the amp is rated for the combined total load. If you have a combo amp with an extension speaker jack, it should be relatively easy to experiment.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I have a spare Univox U1000 head that was just tuned up at Fargen Amps that doesn't have a purpose. Something completely different than my other cabs like a 10-12 might be interesting.

 

Might be fun Tomm - just make sure the speakers have the same impedance (and that the amp can handle the combined load), the same basic efficiency / SPL rating, and similar wattage handling capabilities. And then please make sure you post pics and your thoughts about how it sounds...

 

[Tomm Williams]

Now another thought bouncing in my noggin. Given that the smaller speaker would not function very well if placed in the same chamber as a larger speaker (sealed box)....................what if the cabinet was ported instead of open back? would that accomplish the same thing ?

[DeepEnd]

Now another thought bouncing in my noggin. Given that the smaller speaker would not function very well if placed in the same chamber as a larger speaker (sealed box)....................what if the cabinet was ported instead of open back? would that accomplish the same thing ?

Erm, the short answer is "It's complicated." If the size of the box and both speakers' Thiele/Small parameters matched, you could do it with either a sealed or ported box. An open backed cab would be much simpler.

[WRGKMC]

The Gibson Titan II used a 15" and 2X10's. Its a piggy back with a ported 15" speaker with a passive cross-over for the two 10". The back is sealed, but you can see the front has a rather large port which would prevent the 10's being sucked in and out by the larger 15"

 

 

 

 

 

Gibson sold a

GIBSON GOLDTONE GA30RV with a 12 & 10" too.

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Now another thought bouncing in my noggin. Given that the smaller speaker would not function very well if placed in the same chamber as a larger speaker (sealed box)....................what if the cabinet was ported instead of open back? would that accomplish the same thing ?

 

If its a guitar cab it isn't going to matter much just so long as the port is large enough to prevent compression.

Guitars are midrange instruments producing most of its power in the 200~2Khz range. Cab dimensions are critical when it comes to Bass and PA gear then need to match the resonant frequency of the speaker to produce optimum bass frequencies

 

I'd think any twin type cab like the one above should work OK. A 10" is only 2" smaller then a 12". You can simply narrow a standard 2X12" cab down by two inches and I'd think the response would be pretty good.

 

I personally wouldn't front port. Most front port cabs sound too woofy/bassy for guitar. Front porting works better for bass/keyboard cabs where you need that extended low frequency response. You actually adjust the port tube length to tune the cab to the resonant frequency of the speaker. It also puts the back waves in phase with the front waves.

 

Of course there are some guitar cabs that use it but specific care us used selecting the right speakers and cab size. I think Kustom used ports on some guitar cabs, but there again, they were never my favorite cabs. Many iconic cabs like Marshall 4X12's, Fender Twins, and in fact most combos were simply built to the most convenient size without any consideration of the actual speaker specs. They simply built a prototype and if it needed more bass they added an inch or two to the design, or tweaked the amps tone stack. Having the gear portable so it fit in vehicles and doorways was more important.

 

There are a few manufacturers now who do use specific formulas for building cabs now. Its pretty easy to simply google up a cab dimension calculator and then modify the formula for your target frequencies. I remember seeing one cab builder who had adjustable rear porting that was supposed to change how the cab sounded for different stage situations. For what they were charging I thought it was a bunch of voodoo poop designed to justify the pricing they charged. I've taken open backed cabs and closed the backs to varying degrees and the differences is pretty small.

 

Again a guitar cab handles midrange frequencies and the speaker movement isn't nearly the same as a bass cab where you can see the speaker puffing hard and feel the air being moved.

[DeepEnd]

If its a guitar cab it isn't going to matter much just so long as the port is large enough to prevent compression.

Guitars are midrange instruments producing most of its power in the 200~2Khz range. . . .

 

. . . I personally wouldn't front port. Most front port cabs sound too woofy/bassy for guitar. Front porting works better for bass/keyboard cabs where you need that extended low frequency response. . . .

Sorry but no. A badly designed ported or sealed cab can have a peak within the frequency range of a guitar, say 100-200 Hz. Plenty of chords have notes that low. The open G string has a fundamental of 196 Hz. Are you saying you never play notes lower than that? A poorly designed cab will make the lower notes boomy and the amp's EQ controls may not be able to compensate adequately. The location of the port is far less important than its length and diameter.

[conky]

About 2 inches.

 

 

 

 

[mbengs1]

i could have figured that myself

[WRGKMC]

Sorry but no. A badly designed ported or sealed cab can have a peak within the frequency range of a guitar, say 100-200 Hz. Plenty of chords have notes that low. The open G string has a fundamental of 196 Hz. Are you saying you never play notes lower than that? A poorly designed cab will make the lower notes boomy and the amp's EQ controls may not be able to compensate adequately. The location of the port is far less important than its length and diameter.

 

First - I was talking open backed cabs or larger un-tuned ports, not sealed cabs or tuned ports.

 

Second you fail to understand the difference between Pitch and Frequency response. The two are not the same yet you commonly combine the two then call me out as being inaccurate. Its getting real old. Pleas read and comprehend so we don't have to have this silly dispute again.

 

Frequency response includes the fundamental notes and all its overtones, harmonics, and noise.

 

Pitch is the fundamental note only. Period. Unless you dampen the fundamental note and only allow the overtones to come through as a third, Fifth, seventh ninth etc. If the harmonic overtone is stronger then the fundamental note it dictates the actual pitch.

 

A guitars effective power range is between 166 and 5 kHz. Anything below that is bass range usually gets rolled off to very little.

 

"I'm not removing the fundamental note or nulling pitches when I do that" I'm simply removing bass content from the pitch leaving the pitch intact and leaves more upper harmonics and less low end thump and sub frequency noise which can cloud the production of the higher frequencies by dominating the cone movement.

 

 

A simple analogy is a small man with a small chest size vs a big man with a large chest singing the same pitched note. The big man will have richer tones to all the pitches he sings (or should) The small man can hit all the same pitches with a smaller box size, IE cab size so there's less bass content.

 

Why do they have vocal quartets with the guy who can produce bass tones singing the low notes, even though he may be able to hit the higher pitches properly? Its because those bass frequencies, the richness of his voice will "mask" thinner sounding voices singing pitches below him.

 

This is all simple music stuff 101. I don't know how much simpler I can explain it.

 

Guitar amps usually roll off below 200Hz or so. It gets rid of low end transient thump noise that is more rhythmical from the pick which interferes with the bass player then note content. That's it. This leaves ample room for the bass player to be heard.

 

Exceptions? Of course. Jazz players commonly use guitar amps that produce richer bass tones. Reason? its because they play musical arrangements that include Bass Harmony and Melody at the same time. Most pop music? Rarely. Some metal music uses baritone tuning but thats another can or worms because they don't usually use baritone guitars and strings.

 

What smaller cabs do is naturally remove more low frequencies from the strings. You can do the same to some extent on a larger can by rolling off the bass EQ. It doesn't change the pitch nor does it remove all the fundamentals. What's left is mostly 2nd, 3rd, 4th order harmonics of the fundamental notes which give the strings less thump and more and a sharper metallic attack. I doubt you'll find many recordings for 1980 back that have much guitar frequency response below 100hz because record needles would jump right out of their grooves if they did.

 

Heck - if you have a EQ on your Hi Fi system that has a peak meter for each frequency its blatantly obvious where instruments peak. I run two in my studio for quick visual purposes. Even the strongest deepest bass guitar peaks I'd ever dial up are usually in the second harmonic ranges of 80~120 hz range. There isn't allot fundamental frequency response in the 42Hz range at all You couldn't hear it even if there was.

 

Few guitar cabs come anywhere close to having the right air volume to reproduce fundamental bass frequencies properly. If you were to spend some time digging up some cab dimensions, then find an on line calculator and key in common speakers used for guitar you'd agree with me. You'll find the recommended air volume doesn't even come 50% close to being optimal in many cases.

 

I just did one on an eminence speaker (one I could find the full specifications on which you rarely do with guitar speakers) It recommends a cab with an air volume of 3 cubic feet in order for the driver to produce accurate bass responses. Two of them would be 6 cubic feet, 4 = 12 cubic feet. (But that's only if you want to be able to produce the lowest frequencies that speaker can produce which you rarely do for guitar)

 

How many guitarist today are carrying around a sealed twin cab that is 6 cubic feet? Not many any more. I used to have the matching Bassman 2X12" cab for my Bassman head which was 6 cubic feet. It would work as a guitar or bass cabinet, but I can get nearly identical guitar tones with a 2X12" cab which is actually that same 2X12 can cut in half with a new baffle cut. The footprint isn't nearly as big but it doesn't lack for most lows. Of course its not going to be good for bass because it doesn't produce the sub lows any more which a bass player needs for his tones to be heard and felt.

 

A typical fender twin cab is 1.7 cubic feet and part of that is taken up by the head, reverb tank and speaker magnets so its probably closer to 1.2~1.5 My peavey 1X12 less then 2 cubic feet. Of course these are open backed cabs, but I've enclosed many open backed cans and it doesn't change the front side tones very much, at least not at lower volumes. It just adds reflected mids and makes it sound boxy.

 

Using the same speaker in all of these, the bass is changed drastically, but unless you crank the bass EQ up you really don't notice it that much playing guitar. Plug in a bass absolutely. Cab size is immediately noticeable and the speaker flap and uneven pitch responses on an un-tuned cab are blatantly apparent to even untrained ears. . Guitar is midrange and it doesn't matter is it has accurate bass response below a certain point because its normally gets rolled off anyway.

 

Its all because a guitar amp is not a high fidelity instrument. Its a midrange instrument. Does the instrument produce tones down to 82 Hz? Of course. It will produce fundamental tones down to the lowest pitch. What most people hear as rich bass tones is well up into the 250 to 500hz range which is all second, third, forth order harmonics ranges.

 

Add to that amp heads aren't even close to being linear. Unplug your guitar and Plug a CD player, and listen to just how low the fidelity the amp actually is. Bass will be rolled off and little highs above 5K with big EQ humps and valleys created by the tone stacks in the midranges. It doesn't comes close to sounding Hi Fi like.

 

You in fact don't want don't want sub lows or you'll wind up in a war with the bass player. Given the fact bass player has a bigger chunk of wood in his hands with a much longer reach I don't suggest you peeve him off pumping allot of bass frequencies. He can do more damage with his bass on your head then you can with your guitar. Its got a longer reach too.

 

All Joking aside. Don't take my word for it, and don't just google poop without the actual hands on experience to understand what you google. You'll only run into people like me who will question your experience otherwise by doing that.

 

Get a mic and plug it into a frequency analyzer program and prove I'm wrong. I'll be more then welcome to accept that proof if I'm wrong even though I do this work for a living. I work with this stuff on a daily basis in the studio. I "have" to know "exactly" what cabs produce right down to the smallest decibel levels that you can detect, and even beyond that using software that is better at detecting those differences then ears are. I "have" to know exactly what frequencies cabs produce Or I couldn't possibly mix them properly.

[1001gear]

I'd be more concerned with the quality of what I was playing.