difference between 12 inch speaker and 10 inch

[DeepEnd]

First - I was talking open backed cabs or larger un-tuned ports, not sealed cabs or tuned ports.

 

Second you fail to understand the difference between Pitch and Frequency response. The two are not the same yet you commonly combine the two then call me out as being inaccurate. Its getting real old. Pleas read and comprehend so we don't have to have this silly dispute again. . . .

 

. . . All Joking aside. Don't take my word for it, and don't just google poop without the actual hands on experience to understand what you google. You'll only run into people like me who will question your experience otherwise by doing that. . . .

You specifically mentioned the cab having a port. You can't go back now and have a do-over and say "I didn't mean a port, I meant a port." An open back is not the same thing as a port. Second, it's your BS about pitch vs. frequency response that's getting old. "I'm simply removing bass content from the pitch" doesn't even mean anything. Are you saying you're only playing harmonics without fundamentals? If so, that's a neat trick. What are they harmonics of if there's no fundamental?

 

You say guitar amp electronics roll off low frequencies. Let's look at what actual amps do: [ATTACH=CONFIG]n31774260[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

 

Worst case is the Marshall amp (the upper green trace) and it's down 3dB at about 35 Hz. The Fender (blue trace) and Vox (lower green trace) amps have peaks at 25 and 40 Hz respectively. All three can easily reproduce the sound of an electric bass.

 

Here's a vid you might find interesting, a demo by guitarist Craig McDonald from a band called The Clan. Two Marshall amps running through Marshall 1960 cabs, and a '78 Strat with a SD Hot Rails in the bridge. Watch the miked output from the cabs in the lower right corner of the screen. There's a lot of energy centered at 200 Hz or so but plenty below and above that, from 100 Hz to 5 KHz or so.

 

[video=youtube;cNEKZGbmtSI]

 

You're more than welcome to spew your nonsense and trumpet your decades of "experience" but don't be surprised if someone with actual sense and knowledge challenges you on it.

[WRGKMC]

The graphs you posted are amplifier head response curves using a frequency generator. They show the potential of what a head can produce if they were fed those frequencies.

 

They however do not include the actual responses of what the speaker is producing which is a very different thing.

 

For the point of this discussion I don't care what the amp head produces at this point. We're talking about speaker cabs are actually projecting from the speakers which is what we hear with our ears in a room from a normal listening vantage point.

 

What a musician feeds into an amp, what his head produces as a signal can be very different from what you hear in the open air. Sitting next to an amp the tone is often bass boosted because he isn't hearing the speaker from the audiences vantage point. This is what a typical audience will hear form a stage or a recording of the various instruments which in the end is all that actually matters.

 

Also keep in mind, what you hear in the entire mix, live or recorded isn't what you hear solo. What you hear is the largest peak areas. Frequencies that drop off, like the guitars low frequencies are completely masked by the bass and drums. In a live situation very little of those frequencies are ever heard.

 

These were all recorded in the Key of E with a normal mix of instruments.

 

The bass guitar.

 

Very little Fundamental tones of 41HZ are about half as much as the frequencies between 80~200 (the second order harmonic ranges) Those low tones are felt more then they are heard

 

There is a peak around 2K that gives the bass strings some metallic attack tones. This is a very deep bass part by the way that will rumble your teeth with earthquake tones.

 

 

 

This is the guitar chord track recorded from a Marshall head and 1960 cab with 4x12" Celestions and a Fender Bassman head with four 10" Jensens combined. I didn't bother to separate the two tracks I just analyzed both at the same time and this is what I got. Lows begin to drop off below 200hz with most of the power notes being heard between 200~5K range. These chords were slightly driven which compresses the upper harmonics.

 

If this were a completely clean guitar part, the individual peaks would be much larger because the dynamic transients would be much larger, and you'd likely have a bit more fundamental lows there as well.

 

 

 

This is the drum Track including Kick, Cymbals Toms and Snare. This track was recorded using a Zoom Drum machine with ideal frequency response and balance of the individual drums.

 

Its essentially the same as a well recorded acoustic set. The kick extends down to the 40's, Snare peaks in the 1~2K range and the cymbals in the 5~12K range. (There are valleys in the response 500~1K and 2~5K range which is where guitars will sit in the mix).

 

[WRGKMC]

Driven Lead Guitar Marshall amp, 15W 1X8" speaker combo using an SM57. This is a fairly bright and driven guitar part. The harmonics are flattened by drive so individual peaks and transients are smaller. The amp cab rolls off allot of lows because it just doesn't produce them very well. I had the treble cranked and mids centered.

 

As I said before, small amp, small speaker = small footprint.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n31775117[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Vocals using a Ribbon mic with a deep voice.

 

This was sung in a fairly low key and I kept the vocals rich and full so the frequency response is very wide because the vocals were sung in a Bob Dylan style with half spoken and half sung words. Rock vocals in higher keys usually roll off much higher and have a larger peak in the 2~8K ranges with my voice.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n31775116[/ATTACH]

 

 

Entire mix including all instruments having a normal flat response. All the individual tracks combine to produce a fairly linear response between 20~20K

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n31775115[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

I posted those because they all occur after the amp, what you're hearing in an actual room coming from the speakers.

 

Question. Why do instruments sound natural to us with these response curves? Its because we have been conditioned since birth to hearing them this particular way through a lifetime of listening to live and recorded music and we consider it as a natural tone.

 

Can a solo instrument have its fundamental tones boosted way up and treble rolled off? Absolutely. That's what the amps EQ is for.

 

It of course wouldn't sound very natural playing with other instruments in a mix because you'd stick out with that unnatural tone like an elephant in a china shop.

 

An overly bassy guitar producing buffalo butt tones could be used in certain musical compositions, but on average, its pretty rare, unless you're into solo jazz guitar which would have its frequency response widened to fill in for other instruments missing, just like an acoustic guitar has a wider response that allows it to accommodate solo playing.

 

Different songs in different pitches, chords played higher up the neck will of course loose some bass tone too. I picked this one example because it had open chords recorded so those fundamental pitches would be captured by the frequency analyzer.

[DeepEnd]

I can't see any images, either at work or at home and I've tried four different browsers. Sorry. Apparently they're invisible like the vid you clearly didn't watch. That said, let's review: You said "Bass will be rolled off and little highs above 5K" by an amp head. I showed you that it's not true. Then you went on to say it's not the amp it's the speaker. Fine but let's talk about the same thing. You can't keep moving the goalposts. As for "chords played higher up the neck", they lose bass because there's less bass in the first place. A "cowboy" E major chord has notes all the way down to 82 Hz. An A form E barred at the 7th fret only goes down to 123 Hz with all the strings played but a well designed amp will still be capable of amplifying all the notes. You simply won't lose everything below 200 Hz like you keep insisting.

[WRGKMC]

They were there yesterday. Guess they size was an issue. I resized and they seem to be up now.

 

As to your comment, this thread is about mixing speaker sizes in cabs. My main point was, bass response doesn't matter much in a guitar cab. You insists it does. I pointed out that the air volume is insufficient in most guitar cabs to even have a tuned cab, and yes I through in there the heads EQ can help compensate for insufficient air volume to get bass tones.

 

But I can tell you this for a fact. You aren't hearing what you think you are.

 

I'm not concerned with what you're perception of the science is. We're not worried about how an amp head overcompensates or if it can do something. I'm pointing out what goes into an amp, A guitar and what comes out of the speakers comes out of the speakers is what I've posted above. This is real world, rubber meets the road, end results. You can attempt to beat it up all you want and explain it away all you want but its the bottom line on what we wind up hearing.

[TheForkWigger]

1 inch on each side