Streaming services that make "suggestions"

[Anderton]

So I have Netflix. Fun stuff, but it always asks me if I like something. Well, there's no nuance. If I like some really bad sci-fi flick, I don't have the option to say "I like it because it's one of the worst movies I've seen." Or I put that I liked "Destination Truth." This is a "look-for-paranormal-activities-and-weird-creatures" show, but it doesn't take it itself seriously, and most of the time the conclusion is "The monster the villagers claim to see is almost certainly a feral pig." (Although every now and then, they do find weird stuff.) But then I got hit with a whole bunch of suggestions for shows with pretentious narrators who have "proof" the pyramids were actually built by an advanced, highly intelligent race of transvestite turtles from the planet Xorf.

 

Same thing with music. Just because I find a great hip-hop song doesn't mean I want to be inundated with hip-hop, and it seems these services can't put two and two together...like if I like Bach, it assumes I like classical music in general, rather than thinking "hmmm, he's really into harmonic structure...The Association had great harmonies, I bet he'd like some of their stuff from the 60s."

 

It's all about dumbing down people to focus on a narrower and narrower demographic. This "tribe" thing has gone way too far. I see it in all media: MSNBC has nothing but Obama cheerleaders, and Fox has nothing but Obama detractors. Isn't there some station, somewhere, that tries to be objective? Isn't there some streaming service that from time to time suggests something completely off the wall because "Hey, you should check this out, even though your 'likes' don't lead to this. It's pretty cool anyway. You can always click on something else if you don't like it."

 

It would be cool if one of the suggestions could be "for people who hate country" or "for people who hate rap" and it would be nothing but the best of breed stuff. I know people who hate rap but they think "Fear of a Black Planet" remains pretty innovative.

 

I'm not totally against the concept of suggestions but it really seems more like a way to help people reinforce their prejudices rather than expand their horizons. Do I have it wrong?

 

[blue2blue]

Ha! Totally agreed. I do a little better with music services. MOG did pretty good. Beats seemed clueless -- but I found its UI so unusable that, well, it never had a chance to 'learn' me if it could.

 

My current service, Google Play Music All Access [those boys really need a) a naming lab and b) a graphic designer] mostly stays out of my face. Since I knew I'd have to transition from MOG when it closed to make way for Beats, I made copies of my favorites and manually recreated them in All Access. If I just scramble from my Google Music 'Library,' it's pretty good. (There are currently ~14K songs in my library.)

 

If I use their 'Feeling Lucky' radio, which draws from outside the user's library, though, it's more a mixed bag.

 

What I DO like are the 'Related Artists' that show below a given artist when you go that artist's page. It's a single row of images (you can click for more); it's out of the way, but is easy to explore. Lately I've been on a Malian/W. African music jag. From my current favorites like Tiniwaren, I've branched out to a number of other artists, like Boubacar Traore, Djelimady Tounkara, Toumast, French kora player Jacques Burtin (who makes some traditional styled kora music, but really shines at writing sort of neo-renaissance music for that W African harp), Fatoumata Diawara, Rokia Traore... as well as lots of old faves I'd semi-forgotten.

 

 

With regard to Netflix -- EVERY SINGLE TIME I see some clueless pop tech writer writing about how great their reco engine is, I'm dumbfounded...

 

There was a period of a few years when I wasn't any kind of subscriber, but I started the mail thing very early on and only dropped it many years later when I realized they were never really going to improve their miserable selection of movie classics. As many movies as I rented, their reco's were always clueless.

 

Flash forward to the end of conventional analog TV service, the unrelated but nearly coincident death of my TV, and my subsequent cutting loose of my ridiculous 'basic cable' bill (essentially about $60 just so I could have access to Turner Classic Movies, a 'free' channel). I lived off of my VCR doctrine DVDs for quite a while but when I saw there were some Law & Order, Monk (now gone) and Psych reruns, I decided to try Netflix Online for a while. The fact there were NO COMMERCIALS was an instant winner. I'd never realized how incredibly annoying commercials were --- even as I used my old DVR box to FF through them.

 

So I've been using Netflix streaming for maybe the last 4 years or so and mostly like the service -- though the selection is not really to my liking. Their old movie selection is as abysmal as ever, ditto old TV. And the number of L&O reruns has thinned, even as they get older.

 

But what really annoys the crap out of me are the IDIOTIC recommendations from Netflix.

 

You watch a non-rated Bertolucci movie and they think you want to see a bunch of soft-core porn. Yes, definitely, I watched Last Tango in Paris, so, of course, I want to watch Porky's II...

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Yea I have the Netflix and the category of items they suggest for you are as lame as they get.

 

You can go on line and select the categories that do interest you. I made sure I went in and got rid of stuff I'll never watch like Kidde shows, Cartoons etc. There were some other categories I dumped. Cant remember what they were right now but there were several. This did help the cues from loading up a bunch of crap you don't want, but its definitely not foolproof.

 

If anything, Netflix is the largest storage site of bad B movies on earth. You cant find any hit movies of any kind. I keep paying the subscription but I really don't use up my moneys worth. I just use it when the cable channels have nothing on them worth watching.

 

I can say with my category choices, I scratch my head and try to figure out how the make the jump from what I like to what they post for viewing. They either have some third world pickers or the lamest algorithm in the business because none of the movies they post are things I'd watch.

 

It used to be worse before I picked categories manually. They must know what state you're in. My cue would load up with all kinds of lame westerns because I live in TX. Talk about stereotyping. TX got electricity the same time the rest of the US did, and no one walks around with six guns and spurs, its like WTF. Houston is just as modernized as the NE or any other part of the country is. All that happened when you got "National communication and broadcast networks"

 

The only thing I guess is the programmers who work there live in a very small world and have done no traveling. Their views of the world are indeed a collection of stereotypes as seen through the boob tube with a remote control in one hand and a bowl of popcorn in the other.

[blue2blue]

When I look at the movies that are hits, the lack of hit movies seems of little consequence.

 

That said, they do sneak some good "B" movies through; for instance, there's usually a Coen Brothers movie or two in their big list (though they keep cycling out of availability -- but at least they're finally giving us a MONTH of notice instead of a week! Lots of good documentaries.

 

But, for sure, LOADS of total garbage -- but then, that's what Ho'wood cranks out, innit?

 

TX got electricity the same time the rest of the US did, and no one walks around with six guns and spurs,

No spurs but definitely see plenty of photos of people walking around in shopping malls with their AK's slung across the back ready for the forward flip. Like it or not -- y'all got a big reputation down there and it doesn't seem to be without a factual foundation. I'm not anti-gun ownership -- but I know I'd never move to a free carry state. I mean, check out the gun laws -- you should pardon the expression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas

[WRGKMC]

No spurs but definitely see plenty of photos of people walking around in shopping malls with their AK's slung across the back ready for the forward flip. Like it or not -- y'all got a big reputation down there and it doesn't seem to be without a factual foundation. I'm not anti-gun ownership -- but I know I'd never move to a free carry state. I mean, check out the gun laws -- you should pardon the expression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas

 

Baloney. You want to see guns go to Chicago. Of course you'd be shot trying to post it in the media.

[blue2blue]

No question Chicago has a truck load of problems and guns just multiply those problems. Without a doubt.

 

 

EDIT: just so we're clear, I had already deleted from this thread the 4 images I'd found on Open Carry Texas's Facebook page before I saw WRGKMC's post below. I'll agree that it's not fair to all Texans to stereotype them with the images often presented by some of the more vociferous and prominent political and social activism groups in Texas. They do not speak for all Texans.

 

And let me further say, my comment about Texas was, indeed, off-track, and certainly bears apology:

 

I'm sorry for those comments, WRGKMC. My bad.

[WRGKMC]

Wow you found 4 photos and that is the stereotype a state of millions of people? You must be kidding.

 

I doubt anyone I know gives a rats ass what the biased media says and I thought you'd be intelegent enough to see why they pull that crap. People here know "why" its biased. Its a political agenda with two main goals. They want to insult people enough so they do get pissed and take action or they want to beat them down with their insults and take away their rights. They get pissed because neither works and cant figure out for the life of them what will.

 

I do give many here credit for that. There are many more doctors, chemists, electronic experts and hard working men down here than you can imagine. Most have moved here like myself from other states because you can earn a living and buy a home. I tried to in NJ but there were too many carpet baggers out of NY buying up the property. This state is like a miniature US within itself. The difference is people get along with each other and don't buy into the divide and conquer strategy. That's what really gets the media pissed off.

 

I travel this state to all major cities just like I did as a tech in NJ. If anything the roughest city (not town) is Austin. It attracts college kids, drug users, bums, prostitutes and rock bands. (Another words it can be allot of fun if you're in a band and careful) Compared to Trenton, Philli, or NY its still like a walk in a park.

 

None of this really matters however because people will believe what they want and all I can do is feel sorry for them being so ignorant. This is a great country if you ever take the time to travel. Just do me a favor and keep the insults in the political forum where they belong.

[Anderton]

keep the insults in the political forum where they belong.

 

But we're discussing streaming services making suggestions, and a lot of those suggestions insult my intelligence

 

My experience is that most stereotypes are monotypes - no depth of field, and poor imaging. But before we get off this tangent entirely, I really do blame the media for a lot of what's wrong. When they turned the corner from disseminating information so we could make our own decisions to telling us what decisions we should make based on a particular commercial agenda, that became a huge problem.

 

Which neatly brings us back to the original premise - companies telling us what decisions we should make based on a particular commercial agenda. See how I tied that all up together neatly? Damn, I'm good.

[AlamoJoe]

Lotta good stuff here. yes Corporate America wants to categorize all our desires so they know what to push on us. They want our money..

Politics and the news channels that seem to be either right or left are just the same.

What this country needs is a 6 party political system. A hard Right party for the Tea partiers and Neo-Fascists, a Right party for reasonable conservatives. A right leaning Independent Party, a Left leaning Independent Party, a Left party for reasonable Liberals, a hard left party for Socialists and Neo-communists.

Hopefully things would end up with the guys right square in the middle running things, and we could never get anything approaching a quorum for War.

 

[WRGKMC]

Sorry for getting off topic, and I apologize for over expanding what Blue posted but it was a golden opportunity to reveal first hand what is behind media targeting. Blue and I have posted on this site long enough to have no malice towards each other and I do respect his views here.

 

Good intentions behind targeting can easily be seen as something else. The example in my first post was one example of targeting gone bad.

 

Bigotry: is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ethnicity, evaluative orientation, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

 

I see media targeting can be used as a method of control and propaganda. Its roots began with Hitler when he targeted the Jews and used intercontinental broadcasting during the first Olympics to propagandize his new world order. The US and all the other countries used these same propaganda techniques in the movie industry making war films during WWII. It continued through the cold war targeting communists and actually targeted those in the movie industry who were sympathetic towards communism.

 

Those methods of targeting groups have always been with us since. They were taken up by advertisers who would sell products to groups attracted to specific media. TV went where National Movies couldn't. You could bring add targeting down to a very local level and right into homes. You may have daily shows that sell to a majority of housewives who may watch TV during a given time of the day and target products those viewers would buy. The advertisers knew it worked because they got more sales. The products advertised at night changed at night when husbands or families may be viewing.

 

Today with access to the WWWeb and a WW economy these attempts to target stereotypical groups is quickly eroding. I'm not sure what will take its place besides a world economy and possibly peace on earth if we ever get people to stop playing king of the hill.

 

Awareness of how life for people in other countries are controlled is more open because of the internet and those in power have found it more difficult to isolate their people from others influences. You do have countries like China that still filter and block what they feel is a subversive influence from abroad. It has worked for them well enough to make them a major world power but I'm not sure how long it can last.

 

So the question does come down to whether media targeting is bad. It can be used by people with good and evil intentions. Your only protection is identifying it when it does occur and don't let others tell you what you should like or dislike. We protect the right to free speech. We should also protect our right to hear what we choose to listen to just as fervently. That choice will be fought by those who want peoples ears forced open.

[blue2blue]

And I'm sorry for my comments about Texas, which were certainly out of line. When I went back and read them, I thought, what the heck? Where did that come from? (I'll admit, I'd been looking at the the Open Carry Texas photos only the previous evening and they'd made an impression on me, but as WRGKMC pointed out, they don't represent all Texans -- and they actually feel Texas is too restrictive on what they feel are their gun rights, as I saw from further reading.)

 

Anyhow, again, my apologies.

[Lee Knight]

I think Pandora's use of the Music Genome Project is pretty remarkable. By far the most intelligent "if you like that you might like..." systems I've seen.

[blue2blue]

I think Pandora's use of the Music Genome Project is pretty remarkable. By far the most intelligent "if you like that you might like..." systems I've seen.

I was so excited by the idea of Pandora when I first heard about it... and it's a great idea. But, sadly, I have barely ever been able to make it more than a half hour without running out of skips (the sole exception was using Coltrane and Hartman's duo album as a seed). When I've tried seeding it with favorites from rock or modern pop or electronica, I find myself reaching for the skip, song after song.

 

My tastes, I guess, while stylistically broad, are highly specific when it comes to elements within the music.

 

But then, I used to always say 90% of everything is crap. Sadly, I've had to crank that up to 95% just to get that statement past my internal fact-checkers.

[RoadRanger]

Speaking of Netflix streaming, they have a must see - "Muscle Shoals" .

[rasputin1963]

I hear ya, Craig. On a similar note, check out this listing on the website ALLMUSIC for the album Linda Ronstadt with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra.

 

Look at these keywords. "Earnest" ? "Yearning" ? "Bittersweet" "Amiable/Good-Natured"? Is there any musician on earth who thinks of music using keywords like these?

 

Then you get the robo-program music websites that categorize your favorite artist by things like "mostly major key" and "80--95bpm", etc. Again, even if you liked the tune(s) they use as their template, it sure doesn't mean you'd want a steady stream of it. At least I don't think real musicians think along these lines.

 

[blue2blue]

The great thing about streaming music is it's easy to check new stuff out.

 

Since I've been on Google All Access, I've thought a lot about the ways you could extend these players and make them more convenient/useful.

 

One thing would be nice is a user-adjustable reco engine, where you could set how broad or narrow the recommendations were. Also, while many have SOME kind of integration with Rovi/AllMusic, it's often really spotty, not exposing nearly all that content.

 

The only service I've been on that had a full link to AllMusic was the first, and first to be axed (by Ian Rogers, of course), MusicMatch On Demand, which would display a teaser and link for the AllMusic content for the artist or album. Google pulls a snippet from there for 'major' albums but leaves most behind, and there's no way to search out or explore AllMusic/Rovi from there.

 

I've actually got a long list of recommendations I've been adding to. Streaming players are REALLY primitive and limited compared to what they COULD be... you could do really amazing and cool things. And I sure don't mean The Sentence.

[rasputin1963]

Blue, you couldn't say anything about Texas... that I couldn't confirm, agree with, endorse, recommend. Word, bro.

[blue2blue]

Blue, you couldn't say anything about Texas... that I couldn't confirm, agree with, endorse, recommend. Word, bro.

Wrong time, wrong place, wrong conversation. WRGKMC clearly wasn't looking for a dialog about guns in Texas. If I saw someone else respond as I did in this context, I'd think he was trying to bait WRGKMC. I was out of line.

 

[blue2blue]

FWIW, I actually do use phrases like "Earnest," "Yearning," "Bittersweet," and "Amiable/Good-Natured" in describing music. I started out as a music reviewer for my HS paper (I didn't start playing until I was 20).

 

But I can't say I've ever typed them into a search engine.

 

Well, once. I wrote I was looking for 'earnest' music -- and it sent me to Ernest Buckley.

[Iamthesky]

We once got a gig because the other band found us through the "Rabbit Hole" on Reverbnation.

 

That can be pretty cool. It pretty much free-associates the band you're currently playing to the next through sharing a show, playing the same venue, favorite artists, fans in common, and so on. The only problem is sooner or later you run into a hip-hop or Americana band and then you're stuck because everyone in those genres play multiple-band shows with everyone else in that genre, and it's less a Rabbit Hole than a Black Hole from which you can never emerge. (Hm. Does that mean there's an Americana Event Horizon?) Part of what makes it cool, however, is they tell you how they did each step.

[blue2blue]

The Americana Event Horizon may well explain some of the peculiar behaviors of my $50 mandolin and $85 banjo...

[monstermaker]

Speaking of Netflix streaming, they have a must see - "Muscle Shoals" .

Saw this last week. Definitely worth sitting through. Duane Allman setting up a pup tent in the parking lot. Priceless.

[WRGKMC]

Having suggestions is no different than anything else in a capitalistic society. When you Google something the guys who pay the most to keep themselves at the top of the list will be mixed in with the actual items you're looking for. I suppose the method dates back to libraries categorizing books based on authors, subjects, titles in a dewy decimal system. If you browse a book store, you find your new releases up front being advertised and easily found and the rest of the store is more like a library.

 

Your record stores used to be set up that way too. You'd have banners and latest releases highlighted up front and the rest of the music broken down into pop, classical, rock, blues etc.

 

Radio stations on the dial are still broken down into categories and have advertisers targeting those groups most likely to buy their products. They do this on TV stations too. I stopped on a channel to watch an old WWII serial Combat and every commercial was targeted to old people selling Viagra, Extenz, emergency fall and call pendants, or death insurance benefits. They should learn to wrap all those up into one commercial. The guy takes too much Viagra, falls and cant get to his drink and dies alone without enough insurance.

 

Electronic media uses the same tactics in just about everything it does. Much of it is still new and they haven't found the best methods of targeting the people they need to target. TV and Radio had more filters in place. You had paid advertising companies and all they do is sell time slots. Your commercials had to have a certain amount of professionalism to make it onto the best shows. Later you'd get the Mattress Macks and the used car salesmen sneaking amateur commercials into time slots.

 

The internet has them all. The amateurs mixed in with the pros and its not always easy to tell them apart. Many of the companies you thought were pro have awful websites that try to lead you around and shake the money out of your wallet. Others are very well made but are basically one man sites unable to come close to providing the services or products the site offers.

 

Like water, things in a market driven economy will seek its own level given enough time. Those who build sites are in a new industry and as it grows those who are best will do the best in that field. In the mean time you're going to have a whole lot of people from parallel fields finding out the things they did in their other jobs don't work so hot in the new media and new amateurs breaking into big careers because they are in tune with what people actually want and not what someone things will satisfy them.

 

As I mentioned before the stereotyping is really a dead zone because no one including myself likes to be stereotyped. Yes it used to be good for a joke or two but even that is not tolerated in our politically correct society. Its been virtually eliminated in most big companies because they have adopted a zero tolerance for that behavior. They even put you through special training classes that identify that kind of behavior isn't tolerated with little movie examples and tests you have to take and pass. Let me tell you those movies are more funny then most comedy shows you see on TV because you know what You'd like to hear what the guy should tell the wicked witch yelling at him.

 

Its at the point now companies (especially foreign companies doing business here) have grounds for laying people off cracking stereotype jokes the same way as they can for sexual harassment. Its actually easier to lay someone off for cutting a joke then it is for that being late every day because they know lawyers have a field day with it shaking them down for money.

[veracohr]

I don't know about the music services, I don't use them, but Netflix's suggestion 'algorithms' seem to almost never make logical sense. I can't remember any specific examples, but I think I've been suggested things based on similar words in titles, as well as documentary suggestions simply because I've watched other documentaries. That one makes zero sense to me. I'm not interested in documentaries in general, I just happened to watch a couple because I was interested in the subject. Just because I watched a documentary on Kathleen Hanna doesn't mean I want to watch one on zippers or stamp collecting or whatever. Other times the suggestions are on par with "you watched Predator so we think you'll like Dora The Explorer".

[UstadKhanAli]

I've sort of gotten Spotify to start recognizing stuff that I actually like, stuff that actually interests me. People like me present an enormous challenge to these services because my tastes are sort of like if you got 40 really wildly different people and told them to bring their favorite 50 albums over. I mean, I listen to metal, folk, dub, African field recordings, Indian, Middle Eastern, psychedelic, pop, ambient, electronica, kozmigroove jazz, experimental, a bunch of other stuff, and just generally weird crap. So consequently, for quite some time, Spotify (or Pandora) just couldn't make heads or tails of it. But use it enough, and it starts to come around a little.

 

As a funny side note, my girlfriend has a separate account for Spotify. As a joke, when she's not around, I'll play Goblin Cock or other bands of that ilk so that really interesting suggestions. Any woman who spends any time with me has to also put up with my impish sense of humor.