Why was Fender so slow to adopt humbuckers?

[Kuroyume]

What? Fender and humbuckers? Bleh.

 

What about Gibson and *real* vibrato bridges? Has there ever been a Gibson (factory built!) with a Floyd Rose (or anything resembling the Synchronized tremolo on the Fender Stratocaster)? (Psst: I'm not talking about Alex Lifeson from Rush with his self-modified LP!). To the point, why is Gibson so afraid of modern vibrato bridge systems (synch, floyd rose, edge pro, etc.)? The stock seems to be some archaic design from the 1940s or 1950s (how ultra modern!) with the big flat bar and large bridge anchoring (ala the Vibrola). And the 'stop tail' is a work of... Talk about resistance to technology!

[mc5nrg]

The pictured early 80s Std Stratocaster is a hardtail...the problematic trem that was also available on those models is a different bridge.

[sqrnookle]

Except that the Wide-Range 'buckers were Fender's response to the popular 'bucker-in-the-tele-neck-position' mod. True, Fender didn't go near PAF-style 'buckers 'til much later, but they still responded relatively quickly (much quicker than 5-position selectors Strats which took them, what, 20 years?)

Remember that the WR humbucker was designed by Seth Lover, inventor of the original PAFs. In hindsight, you can see why it didn't quite work out for the WR (namely the late-60s Les Paul boom in rock music), but if you put yourself in Fender's shoes hiring the inventor of the humbucker and getting their updated design would surely seem like an ideal decision?

[aliensporebomb]

The reason?

 

Guitarists, though they might say they are 'rock and roll' and 'of the future',

they are really arch traditionalists.

 

Make one tiny change to a guitar to make an instrument slightly less

expensive to produce and someone will get their panties all in a bunch.

[Faber]

Because they sold a lot of single coil equipped instuments at least in the 70s - remember, there was a market for strats in particular, that's why CBS cranked them out in volumes that eventually hurt QC. Plenty of the 70s guiar heros played strats, although like EC they often used vintage instruments. and Hendrix hadn't been gone for long, probably still an influence on the guitar buying public

[Anonymous Guy]

Ah, I totally forgot about icons like Hendrix reviving the Stratocaster. Makes sense why Fender would start sticking to their guns after that.

 

What? Fender and humbuckers? Bleh. What about Gibson and *real* vibrato bridges? Has there ever been a Gibson (factory built!) with a Floyd Rose

 

 

Straight from Nashville to you.

[Flogger59]

Except that the Wide-Range 'buckers were Fender's response to the popular 'bucker-in-the-tele-neck-position' mod. True, Fender didn't go near PAF-style 'buckers 'til much later, but they still responded relatively quickly (much quicker than 5-position selectors Strats which took them, what, 20 years?) Remember that the WR humbucker was designed by Seth Lover, inventor of the original PAFs. In hindsight, you can see why it didn't quite work out for the WR (namely the late-60s Les Paul boom in rock music), but if you put yourself in Fender's shoes hiring the inventor of the humbucker and getting their updated design would surely seem like an ideal decision?

 

 

Seth Lover was hired by Fender to design the P-Bass pickup (a humbucker) in the 50's. Since he had just come off the Gibson gig, and there was a patent on the way, he had to change the expression of his idea. He did this by using a coil for each pair of strings, instead of two side by side coils that covered all four.

You didn't see people regularly dropping HB pickups into Fenders until the mid 70's, although I'm sure many will point out the ones who did it in the 60's.

[RUExp?]

speaking of bad fender decisions... I wonder how much money they really saved doing this?

I used one of those in a second hand store once to try a pedal through a Bassman stack. It sounded really good.

[jerry_picker]

I used one of those in a second hand store once to try a pedal through a Bassman stack. It sounded really good.

Ruhlly? What pedal?

[pamackie]

Differentiation. In marketing, once you start copying the other guy, you are tacitly agreeing that they have better stuff, and giving them the initiative. Fender probably gambled that Strats & Teles would come back into favor at some point.

 

Or they could have just been dumb. There's plenty of evidence in this thread to support that.

[bsman]

speaking of bad fender decisions... I wonder how much money they really saved doing this?

Just wow. I've always hated that particular style of bridge on teles (in my experience, all those little set screws adjusting the saddle height makes them terribly fiddly and unstable). That jack seems to be an accident waiting to happen. I'm sure you can find really good sounding examples of such a beast, but it really seems like a crappy way for CBS to have saved money on production...

[jerry_picker]

Differentiation. In marketing, once you start copying the other guy, you are tacitly agreeing that they have better stuff, and giving them the initiative. Fender probably gambled that Strats & Teles would come back into favor at some point. Or they could have just been dumb. There's plenty of evidence in this thread to support that.

 

 

It was almost the opposite. Gibson stopped making Les Pauls in the single cut style in 1960. The SG was a response to the popularity of the Strat!

http://www.allaboutguitars.info/part6.php

[Angry Tele]

It was almost the opposite. Gibson stopped making Les Pauls in the single cut style in 1960. The SG was a response to the popularity of the Strat! http://www.allaboutguitars.info/part6.php

 

 

Yup and the Firebird was their attempt at an offset like the Jazzmaster and Jaguar...I think it went both ways, Fender competed for some of Gibsons market and vice versa...Don't forget Fender also had something Gibson never had: a HUGE amp market.

[Alecto]

Fender held off on using humbuckers for several reasons.

I haven't checked the patent laws but I presume Gibson had a patent on Seth Lover's design for several years before Seymour Duncan and Larry DiMarzio entered the picture. That would've convinced Leo Fender to stay away.

Also, the Gibson Les Paul did not sell well in the late 50's, after they started adding the humbucker. That's why Gibson went to the SG shape because they figured that it might spark sales.

In the early 60's, it was all about Merseybeat, Rickenbackers and Gretsches. Fender wasn't getting anywhere because they were still building solidbody guitars, and the style of the time called for semi-hollows. That's why CBS was pondering dumping the Strat in 1966, before a guy named James Marshall Hendrix showed up. However, the Tele was still a consistent seller: Fender had no plans to dump that guitar.

In the early 70's, Fender got into the humbucker action with the Wide Range pickup, ironically also designed by Seth Lover.

[PlectrumPete]

CBS era Fender was known for its cost cutting practices. This Strat was an example of the stripped down experiments CBS Fender made. This Strat removes the routing of the tremolo and input jack (making it a hardtail), and eliminates a tone control in favor for moving the jack to the now vacant pickguard hole. It doesn't even look like a proper hardtail, it's a toploader bridge with some dodgy looking saddles.

 

 

Not to mention it gets smaller if you turn it over!

[jerry_picker]

CBS era Fender was known for its cost cutting practices. This Strat was an example of the stripped down experiments CBS Fender made. This Strat removes the routing of the tremolo and input jack (making it a hardtail), and eliminates a tone control in favor for moving the jack to the now vacant pickguard hole. It doesn't even look like a proper hardtail, it's a toploader bridge with some dodgy looking saddles.

Yep...the infamous '83 jackface. My ex-bro-in-law has one. The neck pup tone is sweet.

[jerry_picker]

Yup and the Firebird was their attempt at an offset like the Jazzmaster and Jaguar...I think it went both ways, Fender competed for some of Gibsons market and vice versa...Don't forget Fender also had something Gibson never had: a HUGE amp market.

 

Yes indeed.

[HanSolo]

Because it don't mean a thang if it ain't got that twang.

[Darkstorm]

Same reason it took them so long to switch to medium jumbo frets. Fender hasnt really been interested in what changes customers make to their fender guitars for upgrades. To included the popularity of replacement necks for fender guitars. There only interest has really been just to make the sale of the stock fender. Which is why up and coming brands like Ibanez, Jackson, etc etc etc becmae more popular. Same thing for gibson pups, gibson didnt care that lotsa guitar players upgraded their stock gibson pups with dimarzios starting in the 70's. If gibson and fender had made cars instead, they still be making the equivalent of original model T cars. LMAO.

[csm]

Yep...the infamous '83 jackface. My ex-bro-in-law has one. The neck pup tone is sweet.

 

Those particular Strats -- which were indeed designed as a cost-cutting operation -- were pretty much CBS's last throw of the dice before the then-ailing company succumbed to the management buy-out which put Fender back in the game.

 

I remember that Rich Kirch (rhythm guitarist in John Lee Hooker's Coast To Coast Blues Band) had one of those ... in a case held together with cable. JLH wasn't renowned for paying his musicians lavish salaries.

[Mesa/Kramer]

Because Eddie Van Halen was not born sooner.

[jerry_picker]

In the early 60's, it was all about Merseybeat, Rickenbackers and Gretsches. Fender wasn't getting anywhere because they were still building solidbody guitars, and the style of the time called for semi-hollows.

 

Early 60's? Fender not getting anywhere?

Surf, Dick Dale, Ventures, Shadows...:poke:

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

The one thing I will give Fender is that they have indeed changed. Yes, you can buy an RI that is made as close to a '62 strat as possible. But they're addressing the ever changing needs of the modern guitarist with the American Standard line. And they've pretty much devoted that line to "innovation" since its inception. I'm not a fan, but I certainly can't argue with it either.

[Anonymous Guy]

I didn't know of an exclusivity patent that kept the PAF style pickups only with Gibson - when exactly did it expire?

 

And how coincidental was it that it expired when there was a huge bucker boost in the 80's...

[Edward]

I didn't know of an exclusivity patent that kept the PAF style pickups only with Gibson - when exactly did it expire? And how coincidental was it that it expired when there was a huge bucker boost in the 80's...

 

 

The very nature of a patent is that it gives the owner an exclusive right of control over the new technology (which can then be licensed to others - happens all the time. Includes, e.g., DVD and Blu-Ray). I don't know what the standard is for US law, but here in the UK it's either (from memory) 20 or 25 years.