Members SuproSuper Man Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 from what i understand you dont need to sand between coats of lacquer since lacquer will melt into the previous coat so to speak, And since water beads better on a glossy non sanded or NON-roughed up surface id kinda think clear coating with a glossy lacquor type product and not sanding it but just spraying the water drops on to its glossy surface , would cause the water to give the best bead effect ..(just an idea ,,,I could be wrong..) also your smoothing out the specks of dust that are stuck on your silver coat with a very coarse grit of paper 400,,,,if its only dust specks on the finish then why so coarse? ,,,,if i dont have drips or drops on my finishes to level out, only dust specks then i go right to using a sharp NEW FRESH sheet of 600 or even right to 1000 grit water paper on a firm foam pad to sheer off the dust specks and that usually does the job....If i got paint runs then i will use a piece of fresh sharp 600 grit in only that spot and then once the run or drop is level i will fan out the area with 1000 grit..... my final coat will only get 1500 or 2000 then buff...... It was that i was just thinking that 400 is pretty coarse stuff for these type of paint applications and you run the risk of cuttiing through the silver to the under lying primer coat dont you ? ....like that painting your doing looks real good in the pictures and nearly flawless so to use 400 on a paint job thats near flawless just seems like over kill...and risky..... like i could be wrong here but over the years i personally found that if you paint carefully and dont get much or any runs then you just have the dust to contend with which is easily cut off with the fine more gentle grits like 600 or in many cases a fresh sheet of well watered sharp 1000 grit will take of the dust and dull the surface nicely for adhesion if a dull surface is required for adhesion of that paint type.... ??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 I do my fair share of painting...mainly cars and bikes, but some guitars. Usually it is bad to change between types of paint (acrylic to lacquer or poly), but as someone mentioned I'd check the manufacturer and see if they have a FAQ. I only use automotive paint so there are always instructions and caveats, although there are ways around them, but then you are on your own. I like the idea of a clear between the silver ( do hat all the time with an intercoat clear,) but what about just doing the drop effect on top of it? maybe that will work. Best of luck and nice work. thanks man, i am playing around with my alternatives on a test strip right now... took my mom and dad out to eat this evening for my moms b-day... then hit my local pub for a couple of brews afterwords... just got home a little while ago and sprayed over the water drops. i sprayed the acrylic lacquer side, since the deft over the the silver ain't gonna work imo... sprayed half of the acrylic laquer and the other half with the deft... the deft definitely flows and settles better... pics tomorrow..., but i see no adverse conditions so far. tomorrow when it dries it may show something more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 from what i understand you dont need to sand between coats of lacquer since lacquer will melt into the previous coat so to speak, And since water beads better on a glossy non sanded or NON-roughed up surface id kinda think clear coating with a glossy lacquor type product and not sanding it but just spraying the water drops on to its glossy surface , would cause the water to give the best bead effect ..(just an idea ,,,I could be wrong..) also your smoothing out the specks of dust that are stuck on your silver coat with a very coarse grit of paper 400,,,,if its only dust specks on the finish then why so coarse? ,,,,if i dont have drips or drops on my finishes to level out, only dust specks then i go right to using a sharp NEW FRESH sheet of 600 or even right to 1000 grit water paper on a firm foam pad to sheer off the dust specks and that usually does the job....If i got paint runs then i will use a piece of fresh sharp 600 grit in only that spot and then once the run or drop is level i will fan out the area with 1000 grit..... my final coat will only get 1500 or 2000 then buff...... It was that i was just thinking that 400 is pretty coarse stuff for these type of paint applications and you run the risk of cuttiing through the silver to the under lying primer coat dont you ? ....like that painting your doing looks real good in the pictures and nearly flawless so to use 400 on a paint job thats near flawless just seems like over kill...and risky..... like i could be wrong here but over the years i personally found that if you paint carefully and dont get much or any runs then you just have the dust to contend with which is easily cut off with the fine more gentle grits like 600 or in many cases a fresh sheet of well watered sharp 1000 grit will take of the dust and dull the surface nicely for adhesion if a dull surface is required for adhesion of that paint type.... ??????? well i usually sand my paint with wet 400 between coats. that has always worked well for me... gets the orange peel out and prepares for the next coat.btw, on the test strip i did not bother sanding the silver this time, nor the clear coats. the acrylic lacquer just worked better when underneath the water beads and now looking at the guitar i am really wondering if i should sand it much at all before applying a clear. i guess i need a little wet sanding to insure the clear sticks, but i could probably bump it up to 800 grit for wet sanding prior to the clear.i've always though it was best to stick to the same brands, but in this case i might try the acrylic lacquer for the beads and then deft over that before spraying the burst edges... the deft just really flows and lays down better.looking at what i just sprayed over the drop effect, the acrylic is spotty and not covering things totally, but the deft covered up everything nicely tomorrow when it's all dry will be the proof... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 i just tried to get some pics of the test strip, but my garage lighting is not gonna cut it... and when i use the flash on the camera it puts a major glare on it... oh well, pics tomorrow, but thus far the deft over the black drops and acrylic lacquer is looking pretty good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axegrinder Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 well i usually sand my paint with wet 400 between coats. that has always worked well for me... gets the orange peel out and prepares for the next coat. btw, on the test strip i did not bother sanding the silver this time, nor the clear coats. the acrylic lacquer just worked better when underneath the water beads and now looking at the guitar i am really wondering if i should sand it much at all before applying a clear. i guess i need a little wet sanding to insure the clear sticks, but i could probably bump it up to 800 grit for wet sanding prior to the clear. i've always though it was best to stick to the same brands, but in this case i might try the acrylic lacquer for the beads and then deft over that before spraying the burst edges... the deft just really flows and lays down better. looking at what i just sprayed over the drop effect, the acrylic is spotty and not covering things totally, but the deft covered up everything nicely tomorrow when it's all dry will be the proof... Are you actually considering sanding the silver? In my experience you can't put sandpaper to metallic paint without miserable results. I would expect the silver to look like primer if you tried to sand it. Again that's my limited experience.If you have a way to do it I'd be interested to hear about it. I found that any surface imperfection in a metallic color coat would have to be addressed with a the clear coat. I found that the nice thing about the Deft is that it melts into the color coat and seems to smooth out imperfections as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members musicmaker '55 Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 As long as you're taking the time doing test strips for your experimenting, you're not just boldly going.... ..where I've gone a couple of times. Which is to make a BIG mess. Unfixable mistakes are good for fine tuning my paint stripping techniques, but nothing else. You're showing a great amount of patience so far.. keep up the good work! So, as I understand it you've achieved the result you wanted to top coat and seal the droplets. Now, you want the final topcoats to go on smoothly as you've done on other projects. Can surely understand that. But, I've never had a reason to swap clear coats in mid-stream as it were. Sometimes there might be a reaction like alligatoring caused by the solvents and other ingredients of the two different types of clears. Spray your normal amount of clear coats with the Deft clear over your preferred Acrylic coated sample in your normal spray & dry manner and watch and wait it out for a possible reaction. As I understand it, the Deft wood clear is a Nitro based clear and as such might not seriously soften up and ruin the clear Acrylic underneath it. I've read that Fender used DuPont auto Acrylic color coats on their guitars topped with Nitro clear up till around the late 60's/early 70's when CBS Fender switched to all Poly Acrylic. Don't ask me about sunbursts... would take another 500 words for me to describe how that's done! I would also suggest as others have to lighten up on the sand paper. No... not how much you use.. the grit! Once I got the color on, I'm up to 800-1000 and into 1200-1500 for the clear coats from there on out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SquierLolz Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 Noice build i wouldnt have painted the neck though.. in fear of it getting sticky as hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members musicmaker '55 Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 Are you actually considering sanding the silver? In my experience you can't put sandpaper to metallic paint without miserable results. I would expect the silver to look like primer if you tried to sand it. Again that's my limited experience. Ahhh.... almost forgot to comment on what axegrinder had to say about sanding a metallic color like silver because his experience has been mine as well. Metallics do mar easily and sanding with something as gritty as 400 (even wet) is certainly going to mar the silver. The only sanding you should be doing on it is really, really LIGHT (and wet) sanding just to remove light imperfections like bits of dust or debris. If I keep the dust down in my spray area, I typically only have a few tiny spots to smooth out and not sand out the all the body surfaces. I wouldn't use anything lower than 1500 for that purpose and preferably 2000 if you can get it (stewmac if not a auto body supply). You'll have the clear coats to smooth everything out... maybe one or two more on top of what you normally do. Then, take some extra, extra time for smoothing out your clear coats with the super light grit to avoid any "rub-thrus" on the drops. Using such light sandpaper isn't for everyone. Yeah, and it does occasionally take quite a bit more time. But, you've come this far. What's a little extra time? Steady as she goes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axegrinder Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 Ahhh.... almost forgot to comment on what axegrinder had to say about sanding a metallic color like silver because his experience has been mine as well. Metallics do mar easily and sanding with something as gritty as 400 (even wet) is certainly going to mar the silver. The only sanding you should be doing on it is really, really LIGHT (and wet) sanding just to remove light imperfections like bits of dust or debris. If I keep the dust down in my spray area, I typically only have a few tiny spots to smooth out and not sand out the all the body surfaces. I wouldn't use anything lower than 1500 for that purpose and preferably 2000 if you can get it (stewmac if not a auto body supply). You'll have the clear coats to smooth everything out... maybe one or two more on top of what you normally do. Then, take some extra, extra time for smoothing out your clear coats with the super light grit to avoid any "rub-thrus" on the drops. Using such light sandpaper isn't for everyone. Yeah, and it does occasionally take quite a bit more time. But, you've come this far. What's a little extra time? Steady as she goes.... I'd be so paranoid of damaging the color coat that I'd just assume spray the successive coats of Deft (20 minute intervals) over the imperfect color coat. After that has dried/cured sufficiently then wet sanding can "knock off" or "take down" those particles that would be protruding thru/above the surface. If they weren't protuding thru like I describe then they probably weren't that bad anyway. That's my $0.02 and probably what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 Ahhh.... almost forgot to comment on what axegrinder had to say about sanding a metallic color like silver because his experience has been mine as well. Metallics do mar easily and sanding with something as gritty as 400 (even wet) is certainly going to mar the silver. The only sanding you should be doing on it is really, really LIGHT (and wet) sanding just to remove light imperfections like bits of dust or debris. If I keep the dust down in my spray area, I typically only have a few tiny spots to smooth out and not sand out the all the body surfaces. I wouldn't use anything lower than 1500 for that purpose and preferably 2000 if you can get it (stewmac if not a auto body supply). You'll have the clear coats to smooth everything out... maybe one or two more on top of what you normally do. Then, take some extra, extra time for smoothing out your clear coats with the super light grit to avoid any "rub-thrus" on the drops. Using such light sandpaper isn't for everyone. Yeah, and it does occasionally take quite a bit more time. But, you've come this far. What's a little extra time? Steady as she goes.... see above post, gonna go very lightly if at all on the sanding of the silver... thanks for the advice and comments fellas, i appreciate the help !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'd be so paranoid of damaging the color coat that I'd just assume spray the successive coats of Deft (20 minute intervals) over the imperfect color coat. After that has dried/cured sufficiently then wet sanding can "knock off" or "take down" those particles that would be protruding thru/above the surface. If they weren't protuding thru like I describe then they probably weren't that bad anyway. That's my $0.02 and probably what it's worth. thanks, that makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members musicmaker '55 Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'd be so paranoid of damaging the color coat that I'd just assume spray the successive coats of Deft (20 minute intervals) over the imperfect color coat. After that has dried/cured sufficiently then wet sanding can "knock off" or "take down" those particles that would be protruding thru/above the surface. If they weren't protuding thru like I describe then they probably weren't that bad anyway. That's my $0.02 and probably what it's worth. Well, then axegrinder's 2 cents is worth more than my free advice. Because, he is absolutely right. I think my suggestion to do any but the most precise spot sanding on a metallic finish is dead wrong. Maybe not enough coffee in me this morning to even suggest GuitarNoobie try doing ANY sanding on metallics... and I forgot just how fragile silver and gold metallics can be. There's a reason many mfgr's of metallic paints suggest clear coating; the finish is very fragile. The last metallic job I did was Ice Blue and I was able to get away with a TINY amount of sanding of particle bumps in the finish. How I was able to do this involved a computer vinyl cutter to cut 1/2" vinyl circles for masking and micro glass bead sanding pads 2400 & 4000 grit. But yeah, even there you can mar the finish. That's why I had to mask off tiny areas to do my "spot surgery". Even at that level of fussing, the appearance of the finish changes. I know this stuff is B-O-R-I-N-G to many readers of this thread. But, the OP's gotta work out these little details at a critical point in his finish job or there will be no finish pics. If someone like axegrinder or anyone else can come along and say; "Hey! I tried that and it don't work", in the long run it'll help the D.I.Y. OP here to avoid the same potentially disastrous result the poster(s) experienced in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members musicmaker '55 Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 i have sanded the silver as i have progressed and you are correct, the metallic look to it disappeared. and at that point is was damn near impossible to tell where the paint ended and the primer began. i should have used a white primer... however after reading the lastest posts from you guys i don't believe i will be sanding the silver and taking the shimmer off of it before applying a clear coat... i have a couple of very minor imperfections that some high grit paper will easily remove. if need be i can spray just those spots after sanding to make the shimmer blend back in... Spraying metallic in spots over metallic ...ahhhh.... I wouldn't go there! Look, I spray paint for a living (and it's not a job to boast about ...just sayin'). I've painted electric signs in metallic silver like bank signs whose customers can be very fussy ..and these are sometimes signs that are viewed up close at eye level. Imperfections can happen on such paint finishes and over many years, I've discovered that "touching up" metallics with something like a spot spray-over is near impossible to pull off. Often, I have just opted to respray it all over. If you got a ripple, a bump, a drip... whatever in the finish, mask off the area as close as possible to the "offending area" and GENTLY wet sand with the highest grit paper you can find. It may just work.. then again, I'd try this on the backside first. Thassit... enough boring minutia for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuproSuper Man Posted October 5, 2008 Members Share Posted October 5, 2008 yeah the above idea of building up a nice layer of clear as a barrier between the sand paper and the silver metalic sounds good to me too...,,,just leave the dust particles on the silver metalic layer alone, and build up an nice thick layer of clear and then fine sand with high grit papper (eg 1000 grit etc..) to cut off any dust particles that are still sticking up above the clear coats...sounds like a good idea to me too.that should protect the under lying silver metallic paint from being dulled by the paper...some really good ideas and tips and ways of thinking about doing this sort of stuff are comming out of this thread... I feel like giving this thread as 5 star rating, but i already did ...lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dissy Posted October 6, 2008 Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 Dude! This is a really cool idea-I may have to do this on a project guitar I have planned out, but didn't have a finish idea for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Trevisol Posted October 6, 2008 Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 Well, then axegrinder's 2 cents is worth more than my free advice. Because, he is absolutely right. I think my suggestion to do any but the most precise spot sanding on a metallic finish is dead wrong. Maybe not enough coffee in me this morning to even suggest GuitarNoobie try doing ANY sanding on metallics... and I forgot just how fragile silver and gold metallics can be. There's a reason many mfgr's of metallic paints suggest clear coating; the finish is very fragile. The last metallic job I did was Ice Blue and I was able to get away with a TINY amount of sanding of particle bumps in the finish. How I was able to do this involved a computer vinyl cutter to cut 1/2" vinyl circles for masking and micro glass bead sanding pads 2400 & 4000 grit. But yeah, even there you can mar the finish. That's why I had to mask off tiny areas to do my "spot surgery". Even at that level of fussing, the appearance of the finish changes.I know this stuff is B-O-R-I-N-G to many readers of this thread. But, the OP's gotta work out these little details at a critical point in his finish job or there will be no finish pics. If someone like axegrinder or anyone else can come along and say; "Hey! I tried that and it don't work", in the long run it'll help the D.I.Y. OP here to avoid the same potentially disastrous result the poster(s) experienced in the past. Absolutely correct '55, you always want to have clear overtop your metallic before sanding. Otherwise your guitar will be an uneven gray color, not silver metallic. If you have a wierd dark spot or something, often the solution is to dust more over it. Metallics should always be dusted on very dry to allow maximum sparkle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sypher13 Posted October 6, 2008 Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 thanks Sypher... glad i helped inspire you to start working on a refinish. take you time and be patient, that's the hardest part... what kinda paint job are you going for ??? anyway, sorry guys i came home from work and passed out on the couch after dinner. made no progress tonight, but tomorrow is a new day paitience i have but time i dont have. so its probably going to take me a while to finish it. im doing a pinstripe finish on a squire jagmaster. its going to be black with green pinstripes that follow the curves of the body. fairly simple finish compared to what your doing at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashasha Posted October 6, 2008 Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 I think that that what is impressing me the most about this project is the time in getting it right that you are willing to invest. I'm stoked about seeing the final product....looks like you are getting real close to the winning formula! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 6, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 paitience i have but time i dont have. so its probably going to take me a while to finish it. im doing a pinstripe finish on a squire jagmaster. its going to be black with green pinstripes that follow the curves of the body. fairly simple finish compared to what your doing at the moment... very cool !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 6, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2008 I think that that what is impressing me the most about this project is the time in getting it right that you are willing to invest. I'm stoked about seeing the final product....looks like you are getting real close to the winning formula! thanks, gotta take my time if i want it to come out nice today i bought some more duplicolor acrylic lacquer and they also had a can of duplicolor acrylic enamel, so i guess more testing is in order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members denracho Posted October 7, 2008 Members Share Posted October 7, 2008 it looks good as is... be careful about the drop effect.. hehe.. gl bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2008 it looks good as is... be careful about the drop effect.. hehe.. gl brothanks man....and it's humid and raining here tonight, so no paint update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2008 ok, just sprayed the final coat of silver.and i tested the acrylic lacquer over the silver VS. the acrylic enamel over the silver. this test was for seeing how the water beads.the lacquer just seems to work a little better, so later this afternoon, i will start applying the acrylic lacquer and post some pics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarNoobie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2008 so i am about to spray the acrylic lacquer on the guitar and i read the back of the can concerning dry times... what's the first thing i see... Do not use Duplicolor Acrylic lacquer over existing air-dried enamel paints so i go test the water beads again and the duplicolor acrylic enamel is gonna work just fine. so acrylic enamel clear it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fusion1 Posted October 8, 2008 Members Share Posted October 8, 2008 Better to be safe than sorry is the saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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