Mystified by the French situation....

[Johnny-Boy]

Can someone explain France to me? Proposed retirement age goes from 60 (!!) to 62. Well, I can see a lot of people's plans scuttled by such a move - it's not a trivial thing to do, clearly. But millions in the streets?...riots? Please, no rants, insults, etc. - I just want to respectfully understand, from the protestor's point of view, what the big deal is.... nat whilk ii

That puts France in sync with the USA's current eligibility age. Though it won't be long till ours raises again. Probably shouldn't base future plans relying on government programs.

Think of the predicament the young workers are in. They'll be having higher and higher SS deductions with no chance to recoup their money.

I predict in the future (20-30 years) that the only people eligible for Social Security will be the ones that are physically incapable of working. Everyone else will work till the day they drop.

I'll be collecting SS in three months. I'm going to keep my head down low though. I've been seeing bumper stickers with the message "Save Social Security, Kill a Senior Citizen".

John

[blue2blue]

Can someone explain France to me? Proposed retirement age goes from 60 (!!) to 62. Well, I can see a lot of people's plans scuttled by such a move - it's not a trivial thing to do, clearly. But millions in the streets?...riots? Please, no rants, insults, etc. - I just want to respectfully understand, from the protestor's point of view, what the big deal is.... nat whilk ii

?

 

What could possibly be difficult to understand about being upset having two years of your retirement pulled out from under you?

 

 

Of course, here, many of us had substantially more than that destroyed by corruption in the investment community, but there, the targets are diffuse and the situation complicated -- and in at least some cases, it was individual choices that led to getting fleeced by the many corrupt players in the investment industry.

 

But, hey, look at the older folks who rail about 'big government' -- yet, as soon as you talk about diminishing their medicare benefits, they howl like banshees.

[Lukenskywalker]

That puts France in sync with the USA's current eligibility age. Though it won't be long till ours raises again. Probably shouldn't base future plans relying on government programs. Think of the predicament the young workers are in. They'll be having higher and higher SS deductions with no chance to recoup their money. I predict in the future (20-30 years) that the only people eligible for Social Security will be the ones that are physically incapable of working. Everyone else will work till the day they drop. I'll be collecting SS in three months. I'm going to keep my head down low though. I've been seeing bumper stickers with the message "Save Social Security, Kill a Senior Citizen". John

Me too Johnny, in 5 months...thanks for the Caveat...that Bumper Sticker is downright scary!
A few short years ago I would've guffawed at that sticker, but now...

Hey {censored}, they're talkin' 'bout ME!!!

[Johnny-Boy]

I agree Luke. 30 years ago I would have taken it to be a joke. Today... I'm not so sure it's a joke. Keep your head down.

Make sure you make a lot of music in your retirement. Music will keep you young.

John

[Anderton]

Thx, Craig - great response to my question. Helps me see a larger context in the current broohaha. Very interesting contrast between the US and France then - under these pressures the French then tend to blame government for not keeping up their end of the bargain, and in the US there is the tendency to blame government for BEING the problem. Behind these very different responses lie very different ideals (or myths) of "the good life" or "the way things are supposed to be". The French do seem hard to understand quite often - but I'm sure the US looks absolutely insane much of the time to the rest of the world... nat whilk ii

Right on all counts. I understand the French well because I lived in Europe so many years and travel there often. At one point in my life, I spoke French better than English.

But zooming out, your comment about the reactions toward government are spot on. This underscores something I've always felt: any social system works if people act in good faith, and no social system works if people don't act in good faith. For example, some think laissez-faire capitalism represents cruelty and exploitation, but the reality is that it's a system that allows exploitation if people want to game the system. If people were enlightened under that system, companies making scads of money would pour some of it back into society because those companies would realize it's ultimately for their own good if society has good education, good infrastructure, etc.

Similarly, communism is equated with totalitarianism because it allows totalitarianism to flourish if people want to game the system. But there's nothing inherently wrong with the concept of shared resources if all of society buys into that concept, and implements it fairly.

Even anarchy can work. When the power went out in New York in the 60s, the city could have been chaos. However, people took it upon themselves to keep things working. Some individuals simply went out into the streets with flashlights to direct traffic. There was no spike in crime, no riots, no looting; people just did what they needed to do. Those were different times, and I'm afraid those times may be gone in this country as our own social compact has crumbled in the face of deliberate division of the population so that certain people can achieve certain ends, society be damned.

The French basically made socialism work for many years, but it was because it was supported by society as a whole, rather than being a solely political construct. The people were indeed the government. That is unraveling in large part due to the European Union, where the governments of France, Germany, etc. are being dictated terms and conditions by unelected officials in Brussels.

The reason why socialism has a hard time gaining traction in the US is because the government is seen by many as a body separate from the people, that has its own agenda. Sure, there were plenty of things the French government does that the average French person doesn't like - or people like Le Pen wouldn't have gotten the traction they did. But, the French as a whole were willing to give up a certain portion of their freedom for a social construct that was perceived as being beneficial to society as a whole, and therefore, making a better "France." Here, the government is often perceived as representing corporations, lawyers, and the rich, and therefore what government does is inimical to the desire and will of the people. I'm not sure I disagree.

[Johnny-Boy]

"But zooming out, your comment about the reactions toward government are spot on. This underscores something I've always felt: any social system works if people act in good faith, and no social system works if people don't act in good faith. For example, some think laissez-faire capitalism represents cruelty and exploitation, but the reality is that it's a system that allows exploitation if people want to game the system. If people were enlightened under that system, companies making scads of money would pour some of it back into society because those companies would realize it's ultimately for their own good if society has good education, good infrastructure, etc." - Anderton

So true!

For most of my life I've been a registered Libertarian believing strongly in laissez-faire capitalism. But I'd be afraid as hell with the reality of such a system today.

Hell, Walmart or the oil corporations could end up owning the World and making slaves out of us.

John

[MrKnobs]

Hell, Walmart or the oil corporations could end up owning the World and making slaves out of us. John

 

Are you sure we're not already there?

 

I remember when Carter defeated Ford and the net result was that the exclusive US soft drink exported to the USSR switched from Pepsi to Coke. I guess I should be happy that at least there's still some competition within the corporate overlords..

 

Terry D.

[flatfinger]

Don't want to travel too far into Political Party territory, but I think there's a reason why the media here is painting the picture as "nothing to see here, it's just those crazy French people." I see it more like a canary in a coal mine.

I 'm starting get concerned that all the sci-fi movies that I 've seen throughout my life that were based on "de-evolution" of society are starting to become eerily prophetic!! When we can't keep social contracts intact and allow moral revivalism to spawn , we are defiantly starting to loose it .





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[Ernest Buckley]

We would be wise to adopt some of those Frenchie laws.

 

And if I may, Giorgi... nice avatar. Glad someone is taking my unofficial avatar rules to heart.

[Etienne Rambert]

The French expats I know are very proud of their health care. But they all think

their country is going to the dogs otherwise.

 

The current discontent has been growing for some time. One thing I admire though.

They're not afraid to show their government who's boss.

[nat whilk II]

? What could possibly be difficult to understand about being upset having two years of your retirement pulled out from under you?

 

 

Thought I conceded that in my post...

 

To clarify - what has been confusing me is the sheer size of the French response, and the huge, broad-based participation in the protests in light of what seem to be the non-earthshattering issues at hand.

 

But I'm gleaning some understanding from good responses here...

 

Here in the US - there's already a schedule of raising the retirement age. Students here could care less if 60-somethings are struggling with their retirement cash-flow issues. And the cynicism here runs so deep, I hear all the time "there won't be any social security by the time I retire" by 50-somethings. You can't get a dozen people to stand on the street corner with placards about these things - hell, there's a growing "let it all rot!" attitude in some quarters about ALL government initiatives to regulate any sort of balanced provision of services and goods.

 

This deep alienation from the very idea of government has taken on a very dark, cynical, and negative tenor here. The current mood is not Reaganomics...it's Armageddonism...

 

nat whilk ii

[Lukenskywalker]

We would be wise to adopt some of those Frenchie laws. And if I may, Giorgi... nice avatar. Glad someone is taking my unofficial avatar rules to heart.

'Frenchie' how quaint...

I once met Giorgi... in an Opium dream...that Avatar is the real person...
that is really him/her.

It was in Paris the quartier Chinois d'une ville

C'etait un reve?

[philbo]

Americans are used to getting screwed over and sucking it up. The French seem less willing to suck it up.... I think it's an ethos left over from when Marie Antoinette lost her head.

[Dessalines]

Like we do about them, the French really don't care what we think about them and they are probably better off not caring. I wish them well.

[Sad Darwin]

Can someone explain France to me? Proposed retirement age goes from 60 (!!) to 62. Well, I can see a lot of people's plans scuttled by such a move - it's not a trivial thing to do, clearly. But millions in the streets?...riots? Please, no rants, insults, etc. - I just want to respectfully understand, from the protestor's point of view, what the big deal is.... nat whilk ii

This generation of the French seem to have spines. Americans? Not so much

[Anderton]

Wow, a civil politically-oriented thread. I believe this may be a sign of the end times...or maybe just a reflection of the people posting in the thread

[Jeff da Weasel]

At one point in my life, I spoke French better than English.

Having spoken to you in English at regular intervals over the last 20 years, I concur. :poke:

[WRGKMC]

The difference with the US social security and others, is it was never designed as a retirement system that people seem to think it is. It was designed to aid those less fortunate, and those who had the means, would invest in their own retirement plans. This has been skewed morally and politically over the years by those who figured out they can vote themselves power over those funds. Then you add the increasing cost of retirement plans, and people wanting to have it all right now, they skip the elective investment and take the cash and blow it up front.

 

Theres also a situation of vesting and how companies work as well. Many will hire employees for maybe 4 years and let them go before their retirement is vested. I had 4 plans floating around for a number of years. Then I had two of those companies get bought up and had the stock bought up. I was luckey though, I sold the stock before it was worthless and got most of my money back. Luckily they made changes in recent years to where individuals could roll over their retirements to new companies. This has helped many start to get ahead, but theres still alot more that has to be done there.

 

As far as France goes, I'm sure we have just as many immagrants and Illegals as they do. In the US theres not much to stop people from paying in to SSI with a false identity, but getting it back out, its unlikely the government is going to send a check to multiple addresses.

 

The main problem in the US is theres too many free services to those who havent earned the right to use them and all the beuracracy to support those services. If they eventually introduce national identity cards, then they may begin to make headway in reducing waste and corruption.

 

I am not for a card, in fact all my ancestors date back to the original settlers in the US and freedom from tyrany is a strong trait in my family. I just cant see any other way of taking on the big complex issues without the use of good secure technology to hold people accountable for what they take from others. Food cards are a joke, Welfare isnt much better.

 

They already have our fingerprints on licences, (another item I'm against), but between that and voting, the card could reduce freeloaders from sucking on the system. If people had to proove who they were by inserting a card and matching a fingerprint, there would be a whole lot less fraud occuring. you could also throw in the fingerprint of the seller and reduce shady deals by being able to track transactions and hold people morally accountable fro their actions.

 

All the people would need to be involved though. You either reduce expenditures or do without. Theres only so much money. Increase the retirement age, more people die before receiving any benifits. Or you could dump a whole lot more useless programs and reallocate than money back into the general fund. Thats the hardest one to pull off for some reason. Half the things that could be dumped could easily be privatized and made to be self sufficiant. Elected politions would never vote themselves less power over the people through their pocketbooks though. Without that they really are nobodies.

[flatfinger]

The US ( don't know about other country's) doesn't give people much of an education in financial matters ; we have lots of highly educated people who are really stupid about money . It wasn't just the "Real Turds" ( Realtors) that got folks to buy more that they could really afford .... folks talked themselves into thinking they could afford more than they could . They were enabled to be sure , but there weren't any pistols applied to there temples whilst they signed the loan documents ....

Social insecurity works pretty much the same way ; the message is out there that it shouldn't be the only thing you do.....But of course how were the prudent rewarded recently when there 401K's were halved through the stock market decline ????? Maybe a Mattress would've been wiser !





.

[UstadKhanAli]

Do other countries teach their citizenry about finance in their public schools? This is interesting.

[Dessalines]

Wow, a civil politically-oriented thread. I believe this may be a sign of the end times...or maybe just a reflection of the people posting in the thread

We're probably all just winded from the last two years of saying....

Ah forget about it....

[Jeff da Weasel]

Do other countries teach their citizenry about finance in their public schools? This is interesting.

 

 

I don't know about "finance", but I was forced to take economics during my senior year of high school (and yes, I'm a public school graduate). Didn't you have an Econ class in school?

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't know about "finance", but I was forced to take economics during my senior year of high school (and yes, I'm a public school graduate). Didn't you have an Econ class in school?

 

 

I did. And I had some sort of business class as well. I don't remember if it were compulsory, or if other schools in the U.S. (or other countries) have this, and was interested to know.

 

In either case, I had finances and responsibility pounded into me by my Dad.

[boosh]

Do other countries teach their citizenry about finance in their public schools? This is interesting.

 

 

Overhere we have 2 years of financial classes after those two years you can decide if you want to keep studying it or drop them.

 

Classes are in fact two different classes. One for world economics and one for bussinesses.

 

We have another course about world politics and everything else,. drug problemacies ,wars I don't know what to call it but roughly translated it says the teachings of Societies. Everyone overhere needs to take those classes as well.

[UstadKhanAli]

Sounds like your country covers some important subjects.

 

Most schools here, as far as I know, do not cover drug problems specifically, although some of this can be covered in Health class.

 

If we had a world politics class in school, I sure don't remember it. We had Government, State Government, and some other classes.

 

What does the Teaching Of Societies cover? That sounds interesting. Is it the different philosophies or schools of thought that some countries or regions may have? Their culture?