Gibson raided by the feds:

[WRGKMC]

 

As the Lacey Act says, (A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law As Apple's product don't contain any fish or wildlife to my knowledge (although who knows, maybe there's some lubricant in there that uses vegetable oils or something), they would not be violating the Lacey Act even if their suppliers were violating Chinese law. However, if there are byproducts of fish or wildlife in Apple products, and the suppliers are violating ANY Chinese law, the situation is equivalent.

 

 

You missed it Craig. The name "Apple" is a fruit that comes from a tree. They must have killed allot of trees to get all of those apples.

They were also looking for the apple "juice" that powers them.

[jwlussow]

 

Neither do I. But I believe in "innocent until proven guilty," and researching to find out what the truth is. Only some people are willing to talk, so I'm talking to them. I would like to talk to the Fish and Wildlife people about this; I've written my Senators and Representative about the situation, but the only response so far is one robo-generated form letter saying I'll receive another letter at some point in the future. And FYI - it wasn't " a phone call." I've made multiple phone calls and emails, including to people who weren't accused of anything but were eyewitnesses at Gibson that day. I have not contacted Henry Juszkiewicz about his position or viewpoints because his position is already well-known. If you have proof of guilt or innocence, bring it on. I'm all ears. Meanwhile, I'll keep putting pieces of the puzzle together, and see what picture it makes when it's all assembled. Finally, my interest in this started last May, before this current Gibson raid, thanks to Brian Majeski's article in Music Trades magazine which was reprinted as a guest editorial in Harmony Central Confidential newsletter #118. The Gibson thing is just part of a continuum that goes back quite a ways. However, it is the most high-profile manifestation so far.

 

 

I never mentioned proof of guilt or innocence. The Feds acted on a case that they had. They raided, then charged, then raided a facility. I do not know if Gibson is guilty or not but I do know that they were raided. 18 months later they were charged. 2 months after that they were raided again. People were saying that charges were never filed, even after the second raid. I chimed in only to state the fact that charges were, in fact, filed in June, before the second raid.

 

It is a puzzle but I get the impression from your defense of Gibson that the raids should not take place until after they are convicted in court. They are not necessarily guilty just because they were raided. Obviously someone felt there was enough evidence to secure a search warrant and bring charges. At this point, that is all that is known. If the bill of lading does falsify the destination and ownership, as charged, the wood would be forfeited and Gibson would have no claim to it. They are trying to get it back so that case might have an interesting insight into the government's case.

[Huh?]

To me this is the biggest bunch of bull{censored} I have ever heard. I'm all for protecting some species from going extinct or complying with other countries rules about the exportation/importation of their plants etc .

But..... we are so frantically trying to comply with these countries rules etc yet we'll go and invade some other country or bomb the {censored} out of it, killing innocent people at the same time. Huh?

Also, here we are busting old Henry for some wood he is going to use to make lovely guitars etc......but they are too {censored}ing stupid to stop the flow of weed over the border. Are you kidding me?

Oh Gibson. We gotta put a stop to them for sure. C'mon boys are you with me? Let's go get 'em. Do this right and we can put 500 plus US Citizens out of work. And oh hey, {censored} the border and all those {censored}ing illegals coming over and burdening the system. Let's not try and improve on that......for everybody. Nah, too much real work.

Oh but you know what...the drug cartels need more weapons......let's make it easy for them to get them and then track them back to the members and round 'em all up and take 'em down.....win-win.

Huh?!!

Who knows....maybe Gibson is pulling a fast one with wood, maybe the Woodstapo are just doing their job well.......who the hell knows? What is so worrisome is just how {censored}ed up this great nation is right now.

[nat whilk II]

The Feds acted on a case that they had. They raided, then charged, then raided a facility. I do not know if Gibson is guilty or not but I do know that they were raided. 18 months later they were charged. 2 months after that they were raided again. People were saying that charges were never filed, even after the second raid. I chimed in only to state the fact that charges were, in fact, filed in June, before the second raid.

 

 

The chronology as far as I can tell, goes like this:

 

Lacey Act was amended in 2008, broadening the scope of the law covering plant items

 

November 2009 - the first raid. Feds still have the pallets of wood, etc. from this raid. No official charges have been filed in connection with evidence taken in this raid. The wood in question here was the Madagascar ebony.

 

The next day after this raid, HJ resigns his board position with the Rainforest Alliance.

 

June 2011 - Feds file a civil case against Gibson. This is the first actual case being brought against anyone under the 2008 amendments of Lacey Act. Feds cited evidence for their lawsuit including various emails, their raid, etc. This incident is the source of Fed quotes about Gibson culpability.

 

At some point, apparently the Federal prosecutor asked for a suspension of the civil case, because they want to focus on building a criminal case. I've had a hard time finding direct source confirmation of this bit of the history, but it is clear in any event that the civil case is in some sort of limbo.

 

June 2011 - Gibson files a motion to get their inventory back and to have the civil case dropped. I don't know the exact technical legalese status of this motion, but if it had been granted, we'd surely know that by now.

 

June 2011 - Feds in Dallas seize a shipment Indian ebony. This included the partially-finished fretboards.

 

August 24, 2011 - raids take place in both Nashville and Memphis.

 

So, as for the issue regarding actual charges - no criminal charges have been filed. The civil case filing does contain Federal assertions regarding evidence and alleged wrongdoing, but technically they are not "charges" yet in the usual sense of the word, "you are being charged with a crime in connection with etc etc".

 

I don't want to get over my head in the legal procedures involved, but my amatuer understanding is that the civil case just got the Feds foot in the door, but what they are really doing is trying build a criminal case. So they are gathering all the evidence they can via these raids - which included computers and such in addition to the inventory. Once they feel good about their evidence, they will go for indictments which are the formal making of actual criminal charges.

 

So that's what HJ means when he says Gibson hasn't been "charged" - he's correct. There are filed allegations in the civil case, but that is apparently in limbo.

 

The heat is on in Nashville, I mean to tell ya....the wolf pack is right behind Gibson and gaining size and speed...scary.

 

nat whilk ii

[Anderton]

 

I never mentioned proof of guilt or innocence.

 

On the contrary...you're the one who brought up the subject of innocence and guilt ("I also believe a call to Charles Manson would also bring about his claim of innocence. Gacy never admitted guilt either. I don't believe a phone call to an accused party is full vindication of the charges."), so I addressed it.

 

 

The Feds acted on a case that they had. They raided, then charged, then raided a facility. I do not know if Gibson is guilty or not but I do know that they were raided. 18 months later they were charged. 2 months after that they were raided again. People were saying that charges were never filed, even after the second raid. I chimed in only to state the fact that charges were, in fact, filed in June, before the second raid.

You keep saying that but I have tried to find any source, from Gibson, the government, or the media, to confirm that and so far you are the only source I've found on the entire internet that maintains charges have been filed. An affidavit that makes a charge is not the same thing as filing a charge and getting a case on a docket. Could you please reference your source.

 

 

It is a puzzle but I get the impression from your defense of Gibson that the raids should not take place until after they are convicted in court.

I have no idea how you got that impression, and I can't think of anything I've said that could be construed that way.

 

 

They are not necessarily guilty just because they were raided. Obviously someone felt there was enough evidence to secure a search warrant and bring charges. At this point, that is all that is known.

On the contrary, much more is known than that. Please read post #123 to find out specifically which law was claimed to be violated, the nature of the law, the selective nature with which enforcement has been applied, and the de facto stance of the Indian government regarding said law.

 

 

If the bill of lading does falsify the destination and ownership, as charged, the wood would be forfeited and Gibson would have no claim to it. They are trying to get it back so that case might have an interesting insight into the government's case.

I'm sure we'll find out at some point...the government claims they are holding on to the wood from the 2009 raid because they might need it to buttress their case when, and if, charges are filed and the case goes to court.

[jwlussow]

Awesome explanation. Thank you. This might get interesting.

[nat whilk II]

Nat - if you ever run for public office, please let me know where to send campaign contributions.

 

 

Thxs, Craig. Hey why wait? My campaign motto I just made up is

 

IF YOU PAY ME I'LL RUN

 

Isn't that the way it's done:)

 

nat whilk ii

[Anderton]

 

June 2011 - Gibson files a motion to get their inventory back and to have the civil case dropped. I don't know the exact technical legalese status of this motion, but if it had been granted, we'd surely know that by now.

 

 

FYI - their motion was rejected on the grounds cited above - the government claims they need to hold on to the wood from the 2009 raid because they might need it to buttress their case.

[Anderton]

This just in...

 

[Hard Truth]

Just two thoughts:

 

1. Protecting endangered natural resources is important.

 

2. IF NAMM's claims that there are no compliance guidelines for manufacturers is correct, then it is a situation similar to the one faced by the sellers and producers of adult (sexually explicit) media. They have no way to determine whether their product is illegal in advance. The only way to find out is to sell it and possibly get arrested. Content legal in one state can be illegal in another state. The differences aren't in the wording of different state's laws, the laws on the books are all essentially the same. It is in the degree of the local prosecutor's hostility to the business, and the tendencies of the judges and juries ("community standards"). Federal prosecutors then take advantage of these differences from state to state by prosecuting people in the states most likely to convict. They have even successfully prosecuted people who tried to avoid selling in a hostile state, but a third party sold their product in that state. So far, the courts have had no problem with upholding (much of the time) these vague laws that vary from state to state in a way that no one fully understands.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

RE NAMM letter to Obama- that's great news! And I think that he will take note. "If reelected, I promise to work tirelessly to protect the labor rights of Indian woodworkers" is not a winning platform, IMO.

[Anderton]

"If re-elected, I promise to work tirelessly to protect the labor rights of Indian woodworkers" is not a winning platform, IMO.

 

Laff of the day! Thanks

[pinkfloydcramer61]

Glad you liked it! . I was torn between that one and "Today the World's Policeman, Tomorrow the World's Lawyer".

[philbo]

It seems like there ought to be a good joke here about Bushes wanting to protect plant life, but I'm too lazy to make one up. Best, Geoff

 

 

They hate to see fellow vegetables abused?

[the stranger]

I woke up with wood. I don't have paperwork to verify the source of this wood. I expect I'll be stuffing daisies in gun barrels before the morning is out.

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

I woke up with wood.

 

 

I hope for your sake it wasn't from Madagascar. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

Ebony and Ivory

We'll confiscate your property

If you can't prove it was not made

In 1903!

 

We all know

import laws aren't the same, wherever you go

But it's up to us

To enforce EVERY ONE

And just because, you have documentation

For the wood that you buy

It doesn't mean you've complied!

 

Ebony, and i-vo-RY

It's hard to play a piano, without keys

And from now on, all my guitars

Will be made from toilet seats!!

[the stranger]

I hope for your sake it wasn't from Madagascar. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

Next Tarantino flick...two hit men steal a car and find a suitcase full of rare hardwoods in the trunk....sans paperwork. Many people die. Great soundtrack.

[WRGKMC]

 

all my guitars Will be made from toilet seats!!

 

They'll tax your ass for using that. Even when they are used.

[nice keetee]

...might be a lunatic loose with a suitcase nuke

but the Feds are chasing dead wood..

[WRGKMC]

They had a piece on CNN tonight. Nothing new other than they've lost a million dollars because of the last raid.

[philbo]

After reading up on how the Gibson CEO runs his show and treats his employees, all I can say is "it couldn't happen to a nicer guy". Karma is a bitch, and she's in a bad mood...

It's just too bad the employees will suffer for it, but that's always the way the rich insulate themselves from their karma.

[Anderton]

 

After reading up on how the Gibson CEO runs his show and treats his employees, all I can say is "it couldn't happen to a nicer guy". Karma is a bitch, and she's in a bad mood... It's just too bad the employees will suffer for it, but that's always the way the rich insulate themselves from their karma.

 

 

You're missing the point. It could happen to any company, and it could happen to you. Or Guitar Center, or Sweetwater, or Willie Nelson...it's not the job of the government to be the arbiters of karma, but administrators of the law. If they think Gibson was operating outside of the law, then a lot of other companies better get in line for the same kind of treatment.

 

If they picked Gibson for some other reason, then that's a whole other (and at least on the surface, more sinister) issue. I haven't heard very nice things about Steve Jobs, but that doesn't mean the Feds should go raid Apple.

[ggm1960]

Often times on these forums I get the impression that people hate Gibson simply because their guitars are expensive.

[Huh?]

 

The plot thickens. Dang hard sometimes to find out what actually bloody happened when there are two sides aggressively asserting different versions, huh?

 

 

To me it is beyond guilt or what have you Nat. Separate issue. If Gibson is guilty, make amends, pay fines etc. To me it is the "{censored} you" stance the Government is taking. This was not a crack house, not the warehouse of an arms dealer, not a muslim terrorist group headquarters.

 

Did anyone see this from April this year? 4 months before this latest Gibson raid.

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/04/26/obama-administration-attempting-to-force-out-ceo-over-marketing-violations/

 

"The campaign against drug-company CEOs is part of a larger Obama administration effort to pursue individual executives blamed for wrongdoing rather than simply punishing companies.

 

In other words, the government has decided to arbitrarily decide on punishment without any due process in regard to the individuals involved. The Obama administration wants the power to dictate to the private sector who can and cannot run firms that do business with Washington.

 

It