Gibson raided by the feds:

[Lee Flier]

This is about some stupid wood that grows in abundance. The wood is like plywood to India and Madagascar.

 

No, it isn't. Trees are being over-harvested in most places, and it's a particular problem with very hard woods like rosewood and ebony, which grow very slowly.

 

It's entirely possible that Mr. Rayfield is an over-zealous wannabe dork, but let's not confuse that with the very real environmental problems the Lacey Act is designed to address.

[Lee Flier]

I am inclined to go with......there was indeed a clerical error......but it was just an excuse to dispatch the Woodstapo.......because HJ is a Republican and makes sizeable contributions to republican candidates and also because Gibson is a non-union shop. They wanted to give them a spanking in public. There is also the fact that this administration wants to ship work out of the country. It's all a part of their effort to destroy life in this country as we know it. Spread the wealth around, open the borders, collapse the economy, destroy the values this country was built on, traditions, over regulate the {censored} out of everything....{censored}....yada yada yada....it nakes me sick! We better watch out and pay attention or we are all going to be forced to call each other Comrade pretty soon.

 

:facepalm: :facepalm:

 

Yes, that MUST be it, because the President personally ordered his minions to raid Gibson guitars, a move which would obviously garner national news attention and an outpouring of sympathy for Gibson! That would be so great for his re-election campaign!

 

The President personally chose to punish Gibson guitars because "they're not a union shop," but he wants to ship all the jobs overseas! What? Yeah, that's really gonna help the unions. I mean, this doesn't even make any sense as an argument.

 

And if you seriously think Barack Obama is some kind of Marxist, let's just say you need a major refresher course in remedial politics.

 

Please take your tinfoil hat elsewhere. If you don't like the president, that's fine, but some of us are actually interested in a rational discussion of an issue that really has nothing to do with who is president. Let me remind you that the amendment to the Lacey Act which made this possible, and which has caused such concern among instrument makers for the last 3 years, was enacted under George W. Bush. This does not mean I think it's Bush's fault. It just means it's highly doubtful that partisan politics or presidents had anything to do with it, and this kind of crap just distracts from what really happened or any possible rational solution.

[ggm1960]

The government needs to raid all American businesses, I'm sure they're all doing something wrong. The government's focus has been to destroy domestic productivity for so long, let's just finish it off!
Goverment reminds me the 1950's movie, The Blob, where an alien entitiy continues to grow and absorb everything in it's path. A virus determined to destroy it's host.

[ggm1960]

that's really gonna help the unions.

That's right, unions would never go global.......well, except for the Service Employees International Union but......naw!

[WRGKMC]

 

Here's the latest info I've found: There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds.

 

 

This is the first thing I've read that I'm inclined to believe.

Its also the first thing I posted as being the possible cause of the problem.

I figured it was a middeleman company who handels the actual import that screwed up

at one one end or the other and it actually had nothing to do with Gibson other than they were the ones

who wound up in the hot seat dealing with some jackass middlemen trying to cover their asses.

 

I cant see Gibson would knowing try to screw themselves when they know they already have a blow tourch pointed at them.

It just doesnt make sence unless you're some kind of conspiratory nut who think all large companies are evil.

In that case, I'd say you never worked with or for big companies and havent got a clue.

 

In reality companies are made up of allot of normal Joes with mediochre skills who are doing more work than

ever because companies are afraid to hire more people. This invites errors to occur.

Tired people wearing more hats then they should.

That whole bogus Toyota situation that wound up being complete BS and damaged that companies reputation

sent a sunami ripple throughout all the Japanees companies to tighten up every aspect of their business to make

them bulletproof against these kinds of bull{censored} legal situations.

Its not they they "werent" doing things correctly, it just created a climate where they expedite everything involving

mods and improvements, beyond the point of making any good business or safety sence at all.

 

I can say if it does pan out as being just an ignorant clerical error, and some jackass trying to

cover his ass, then there is something drastically wrong here.

Companies really have to focus even more on having reputable "and" experienced individuals in these kinds of jobs.

with maybe legal background in those postions. These laws change rapidly, can be vague and complex.

If some junior clerk can take down a whole company like this, then we cant survive whats coming.

If the problem originated with the import company, Maybe the importer is the one who should be getting raided?

[MrKnobs]

I'm surprised this thread is such a hot topic here.

 

It's just a business / legal thing. Someone's palm didn't get greased properly, some forms weren't filled out correctly, it'll all be sorted as no one wants the money flow interrupted for long.

 

Guitars will still work fine if they have to be made out of pine or oak or mesquite or fiberglass or aluminum or carbon nanofibers or recycled Japanese nuclear waste or whatever. They might sound very slightly different but really it's like vinyl vs digital, wav vs mp3, not something the average person hears or cares about in the slightest.

 

Now, if the interest is really about the environment, deforestation, etc... well, that's a HUGE problem that will eventually kill us all and this tiny issue is just a drop in the bucket compared to the Brazilian rain forest, the Pacific Northwest, the pine bark beetle, white pine blister fungus, etc.

 

Alternately, if it's about government being Big Brother, well, this ain't even a drop compared to the bigger picture going on.

 

Just trying to figure out which hot buttons got pressed. This seems like a (relatively) small thing to me.

 

Terry D.

[Visconti]

No, it isn't. Trees are being over-harvested in most places, and it's a particular problem with very hard woods like rosewood and ebony, which grow very slowly. It's entirely possible that Mr. Rayfield is an over-zealous wannabe dork, but let's not confuse that with the very real environmental problems the Lacey Act is designed to address.

 

 

Can you tell the difference in tonal qualities between old growth Brazilian rosewood and new growth Brazilian rosewood?

 

Trees are like weeds, they grow back.

[Lee Flier]

I'm surprised this thread is such a hot topic here. It's just a business / legal thing. Someone's palm didn't get greased properly, some forms weren't filled out correctly, it'll all be sorted as no one wants the money flow interrupted for long. Guitars will still work fine if they have to be made out of pine or oak or mesquite or fiberglass or aluminum or carbon nanofibers or recycled Japanese nuclear waste or whatever. They might sound very slightly different but really it's like vinyl vs digital, wav vs mp3, not something the average person hears or cares about in the slightest. Now, if the interest is really about the environment, deforestation, etc... well, that's a HUGE problem that will eventually kill us all and this tiny issue is just a drop in the bucket compared to the Brazilian rain forest, the Pacific Northwest, the pine bark beetle, white pine blister fungus, etc. Alternately, if it's about government being Big Brother, well, this ain't even a drop compared to the bigger picture going on. Just trying to figure out which hot buttons got pressed. This seems like a (relatively) small thing to me. Terry D.

 

I mostly agree with you. The only thing that is a hot button to me is the way this case is being blown up and used as a political football, and it's very common for people who really are up to no good to exploit relatively small-time cases like this in order to gain advantage in a much bigger game.

 

I understand why MI people are concerned about the Lacey amendments and what it means to them, and I understand the accusations of abuse of power on the part of the government - IF in fact there was nothing beyond a clerical {censored}up, which we really don't know yet. That's the problem, we don't know, and yet people are filling this knowledge vacuum with all sorts of speculative and misleading crap.

[Lee Flier]

Can you tell the difference in tonal qualities between old growth Brazilian rosewood and new growth Brazilian rosewood? Trees are like weeds, they grow back.

 

 

This is real simple: trees, especially trees that produce very hard wood, do not grow back as quickly as weeds. And if the demand for the wood exceeds the rate at which the trees grow back, then there is a problem. This has already happened in Brazil, where rosewood trees were logged almost to extinction, so now they've had to put a stop to rosewood export and now we've moved on to India, where no doubt everyone will cut down trees at as furious a rate as they can muster, until they're almost gone there too, without a meaningful conservation program which would have to originate from the evil government.

 

It's OK to harvest from forests in limited quantities, and that's why regulation is important - to make sure that forests can remain healthy enough to keep producing.

[Visconti]

This is real simple: trees, especially trees that produce very hard wood, do not grow back as quickly as weeds. And if the demand for the wood exceeds the rate at which the trees grow back, then there is a problem. This has already happened in Brazil, where rosewood trees were logged almost to extinction, so now they've had to put a stop to rosewood export and now we've moved on to India, where no doubt everyone will cut down trees at as furious a rate as they can muster, until they're almost gone there too, without a meaningful conservation program which would have to originate from the evil government. It's OK to harvest from forests in limited quantities, and that's why regulation is important - to make sure that forests can remain healthy enough to keep producing.

True, but trees grow back. They're not like oil.

How come F&W is not raiding other guitar manufactures?

[trainset]

the USA became a signatory to the CITES agreement in 1980

 

shouldnt have signed it if manufacturers cant follow it.....

[oldschoolshred]

If they put any Gibson employees behind bars they'll get plenty of ebony wood.

[Visconti]

DOJ Advises Gibson Guitar to Export Labor to Madagascar

CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems
would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?

HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that it a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes

Link

Well then, that means every gultar builder in America will have to use Madagascar labor
if they use rosewood or ebony or any other woods from there.

Henry said he has the pleading in writing with signatures and dated.

[roomjello]

 

I mostly agree with you. The only thing that is a hot button to me is the way this case is being blown up and used as a political football, and it's very common for people who really are up to no good to exploit relatively small-time cases like this in order to gain advantage in a much bigger game. I understand why MI people are concerned about the Lacey amendments and what it means to them, and I understand the accusations of abuse of power on the part of the government - IF in fact there was nothing beyond a clerical {censored}up, which we really don't know yet. That's the problem, we don't know, and yet people are filling this knowledge vacuum with all sorts of speculative and misleading crap.

 

 

But don't be upset at that, cause it is awesome. If people are speculating and assuming then they are hyper aware and on guard and that is exactly what America needs to the largest degree possible right now.

It's a really good thing for this to be blown up.

Insignificant specifically possibly, but we need to expose bullying repeatedly to gain public strength and support and awareness.

[Beck]

Just trying to figure out which hot buttons got pressed. This seems like a (relatively) small thing to me. Terry D.

It's no small thing, but that's how the authorities would like you to see it. There are no small things when it comes to law. Precedents are set, both in terms of what is seen as acceptable law enforcement conduct in a free society, and also how case law is established for future legal decisions. Someone has an agenda and it's not to save the trees.

[Lee Flier]

 

But don't be upset at that, cause it is awesome. If people are speculating and assuming then they are hyper aware and on guard and that is exactly what America needs to the largest degree possible right now. It's a really good thing for this to be blown up.

 

 

It is - AFTER we know all of the facts.

 

Right now I mostly see a lot of people jumping to conclusions that happen to match their personal ideology.

[Lee Flier]

 

True, but trees grow back. They're not like oil.

 

 

No, they're not like oil, but that doesn't mean we can just go take as much as we want with no consequences or limits. Yet that's what we have been doing.

 

 

How come F&W is not raiding other guitar manufactures?

 

 

Because maybe Gibson did something wrong that other guitar manufacturers have not?

 

Maybe they didn't. We don't know yet. And until then it's all just speculation and smoke and mirrors.

[scud133]

This thing is all over Fox News. Check this out.....Henry is going to Obama's job speech and is sitting in Boehner's box. http://video.foxnews.com/v/1148107208001/white-house-goes-after-gibson/?playlist_id=86858 http://video.foxnews.com/v/1147697313001/gibson-guitars-raid-and-fallout-over-illegal-wood/?playlist_id=86858 http://video.foxnews.com/v/1139489818001/gibson-guitar-ceo-dont-know-why-were-targeted

those are interesting and it's kinda cool to see it hit the national news, but they all reek of conspiracy theories

[Lee Flier]

Ya think?

[Huh?]

Lee, I don't really want to lock horns with you as you seem like a nice person etc....however I just cannot let some of the stuff you said go unanswered. Beginning with your abundant self righteous use of the leading to stuff like.......

 

Please take your tinfoil hat elsewhere.

 

Just as soon as you get off your high horse Lee.

 

Yes, that MUST be it, because the President personally ordered his minions to raid Gibson guitars

 

No I don't really think so. I believe it is more a mindset of his administration as well as it coming from those pulling his strings. Besides, he was probably too busy hanging out in Martha's Vineyard or chasing a ball around the links somewhere to have even seen it come across his desk.

 

The President personally chose to punish Gibson guitars because "they're not a union shop," but he wants to ship all the jobs overseas! What? Yeah, that's really gonna help the unions. I mean, this doesn't even make any sense as an argument.

 

Again...not him...the powers that pull his strings. Don't underestimate the power of organized labor. Maybe Gibson is being coerced to sign a collective bargaining agreement.....or move some of his manufacturing overseas......or there will be more of the same. Maybe Gibson not playing ball is the only way they figure to bring this into the public forum.

 

And if you seriously think Barack Obama is some kind of Marxist, let's just say you need a major refresher course in remedial politics.

 

I don't know what he is.......socialist, anti-colonialist, anti-capitalist maybe...some kind of Marxist........ Who knows what he is at his core......but I am pretty sure the people pulling his strings might well be using all of that as a way to get to what they want.

 

If you don't like the president, that's fine

 

You are right, I don't like him and would like to see him out in 2012.

 

....a rational discussion of an issue that really has nothing to do with who is president.

 

How can you say with any certainty it doesn't Lee? I accept your opinion....but just like myself and others, you are going on the exact same information or proof we have....none, zip, nada.

 

So yours is also just opinion. Yet you get kinda nasty about it...all facepalming and making comments about tinfoil hats and all.

 

It just means it's highly doubtful that partisan politics or presidents had anything to do with it

 

Okay I disagree but at least you are not telling me I am wrong and you are right.

 

If you read my post without being completely reactionary, you would have seen that I said.....

I am inclined to go with......

......meaning I am not sure but this is the explanation I am most comfortable accepting.

 

Again, just like you....opinion. And yes, I do want the facts although I am sure the whole thing will be buried if they can.

 

Like Craig and others said........it is more about slamming this in everyone's face to get awareness of it. That way hopefully it will lead to the truth coming out.

 

The feds are not saying anything.They won't even charge Gibson yet they confiscate and hold $1M worth of their assets. Without charges being formally filed? WHY? If it were not for musicians becoming so pissed about this....the liberal media would never even have carried the story and the average Joe Blow would never have known.

 

I don't even know if they have so far. Or how much of the Solyndra debacle they will carry either.

[Goobers]

 

If it were not for musicians becoming so pissed about this....the liberal media would never even have carried the story and the average Joe Blow would never have known.

 

 

Everyone knows Gibson. It's iconic. What the company is worth in dollars pales in comparison to their cultural heft. Going after Gibson is like kicking a kitten. A kitten wrapped in an American flag, eating apple pie, and helping old ladies across the street.

[Philter]

Can you tell the difference in tonal qualities between old growth Brazilian rosewood and new growth Brazilian rosewood? Trees are like weeds, they grow back.

That's probably what these guys said too. They were wrong and they all died, lol.

[Goobers]

Trees are like weeds, they grow back.

 

 

George Carlin FTW!

[Philter]

 

The feds are not saying anything.They won't even charge Gibson yet they confiscate and hold $1M worth of their assets. Without charges being formally filed? WHY?

 

I can think of one reason. What guitar company is going to get lazy on materials sourcing or documentation now? Law enforcement agencies love to make examples of people to save themselves work down the road.

[Lee Flier]

Again...not him...the powers that pull his strings. Don't underestimate the power of organized labor.

 

In case you haven't noticed, "the power of organized labor" has been in serious decline for years now. Wages have not kept pace with inflation. Many companies have enacted union busting laws already and now even government workers are not immune.

 

Who really "pulls the strings" is large, often multinational corporations and they don't like unions. Unions do sometimes abuse their power like anyone who has power, but the power of unions is NOWHERE NEAR the power of large corporations, who now manipulate politicians in both parties.

 

I think their game is working on you.

 

Maybe Gibson is being coerced to sign a collective bargaining agreement.....or move some of his manufacturing overseas......or there will be more of the same. Maybe Gibson not playing ball is the only way they figure to bring this into the public forum.

 

But there is no logical reason to jump to that conclusion. Maybe it was some bureaucrat in Fish and Wildlife wanting to make a name for himself as Visconti said. Or maybe Gibson really does have a history of falsifying documents and pissed off the government one too many times. That's just it - we don't know, and yet you take this opportunity to go on your rant about the great union conspiracy and all the rest of it.

 

I don't know what he is.......socialist, anti-colonialist, anti-capitalist maybe...some kind of Marxist........ Who knows what he is at his core......

 

LOL! "Anti-colonialist"... you've been reading Newt Gingrich I see. I'm sorry, but this is just plain, umm, misinformed. I'll leave it at that.

 

How can you say with any certainty it doesn't Lee? I accept your opinion....but just like myself and others, you are going on the exact same information or proof we have....none, zip, nada.

 

As I said later in the post... it's highly doubtful. If nothing else, it would be a terrible PR move. What could be a worse story in terms of public opinion than raiding a beloved guitar company? And read spokenward's post... agency reorganizations happen all the time, and it often leads to unintended consequences.

 

So yours is also just opinion. Yet you get kinda nasty about it...all facepalming and making comments about tinfoil hats and all.

 

Sorry, but when I see stuff like this:

 

There is also the fact that this administration wants to ship work out of the country. It's all a part of their effort to destroy life in this country as we know it. Spread the wealth around, open the borders, collapse the economy, destroy the values this country was built on, traditions, over regulate the {censored} out of everything....{censored}....yada yada yada....it nakes me sick! We better watch out and pay attention or we are all going to be forced to call each other Comrade pretty soon.

 

...well, it's hard for me to respect that because it's completely over the top and spurious... and nasty. And you claim it's a FACT. That's why the facepalms and the tinfoil hat comments. Really, if you're going to present your opinions that way you're not going to convince anybody of anything except for people who already think the way you do.

 

If you read my post without being completely reactionary, you would have seen that I said..... ......meaning I am not sure but this is the explanation I am most comfortable accepting.

 

See above. That isn't all you said.

 

The feds are not saying anything.They won't even charge Gibson yet they confiscate and hold $1M worth of their assets. Without charges being formally filed? WHY?

 

If the ebony seized in the '09 raid was shipped illegally, then it's not Gibson's property. As Craig said, the '09 situation is extremely hard to untangle because Madagascar did in fact have a law against exporting ebony, which Gibson is accused of having tried to circumvent by going through a gray market German supplier. Unfortunately, there was also a coup in Madagascar in 2009, so even trying to figure out what their laws were at that time and whether they were legitimate is a problem. In any case, the original case against them was going to be filed as a civil charge, but now they have dropped the civil case because they believe they have a criminal case. So that's why it's taking so long. Whether any of it amounts to anything, who knows. But that is my point. We don't know and I'm sure we will find out at some point.

 

If it were not for musicians becoming so pissed about this....the liberal media would never even have carried the story and the average Joe Blow would never have known.

 

Well yes, that's usually how it works - the media report on things that they think will garner a lot of interest. There have, in fact, been a number of stories about this in the media. There were in '09 too. And if that's partly due to musicians being pissed, great. I'm all for musicians keeping the pressure on the media and government and letting everybody know we haven't forgotten about this issue. But only in the context of "let's get this into court and find out the truth" as opposed to putting forth all kinds of ill informed theories. I also think the NAMM request for dialog on clarification of the Lacey Act is an excellent idea.

 

Incidentally, here is one piece from the "liberal media" which does air all sides of the issue in a rather "fair and balanced" way.

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

 

Interestingly, the article quotes the CEO of Martin as well as Juszkiewicz. And he has a decidedly different take on the whole thing. Apparently, when the coup happened in Madagascar, Gibson was the only guitar company who decided to source ebony or rosewood from Madagascar despite the risks. All the others (including Martin) decided not to attempt to buy wood from there until some kind of stability was restored. Had any other companies taken the same risk, they'd probably have ended up in the same boat. So that would explain why Gibson is getting busted and not other companies, at least in the '09 case.

 

The article also does quote George Gruhn and airs the concerns of the vintage guitar market and other luthiers who are worried about the ramifications of the recent Lacey Act amendments. And Henry and Gibson's lawyers get their say too. Nice job, liberal media!