Women In Music - Is it easier or harder?

[LordBTY]

This website has become my No. 4 form of procrastination (Damn Youtube, Facebook and masturbation!) so I'll try to keep this brief.

 

Recently, Jessie J was accused of being a lesbian. She has been openly bi this whole time without showing any obvious signs of sexuality. Some of her songs, to me, are really good - others not so much. If she's a lesbian she'd probably lose out on the younger, single-buying market and have to rely on the mature, album-buying market. With this generalization, she'd need to make very good albums for people to enjoy and would also certainly be accepted by the liberal-minded 25+s that actually buy/listen to albums. She would, however, need to mature beyond what she's doing now.

 

This made me think: is it easier to make it in music if you're a straight girl? Not just a straight one.... but a girl? Though, about half the serious female musicians I know are lesbians.

 

Points:

 

Most of the jobs are dominated by men. Producers, A&R, managers... though, apparently alota the 'top writers' are women.

 

There are also less women interested in music - I can name about 24 serious male musicians I know and only about 4 serious female ones.

 

Although it seems easier to become a big pop star when you're a girl - especially right now - this is only an extreme minority.

 

It feels as though attractive females who make generic rock/metal will get more attention than an attractive male. There is a market for the hot guys but things have certainly reached a saturation point there.

 

***

 

This leaks into marketing but I intend to keep it general so I posted it here. What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm subbed to her on youtube. I could lie to myself and say it's because I take her seriously... I don't think I'm gonna do that. If she did a song she would get significantly more attention but be taken less seriously by most. However, people would still listen and still take it completely seriously. Final points: - Objectification of performers is to be expected - male or female. Attractive women just have more to exploit. - Some girls who aren't taken seriously bring it on themselves. I like Katy Perry but alota people don't take her seriously. Why? Because she has the body of a pornstar and dances around half naked in her videos. I think Nelly Furtado started aiming for erections when she realized it's alot harder (no pun intended) to make it without being a sexual object. Dido, Adele, Amy Winehouse aren't/weren't exactly sexualized but seem/seemed to do ok. **Wearing a lowcut top might get me a bit more attention now that I think about it.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

As long as others don't take women as seriously or continue to objectify them, it will always be harder for women.

[Jimbroni]

I'll always be harder for women.

 

 

Sad Truth = depends how hot.

[UstadKhanAli]

As long as others don't take women as seriously or continue to objectify them, it will always be harder for women.

[CTStump]

This is gonna be another BTY provocative thread, I know you like to do these but it will probably be 15 pages of arguments (which is good cause the info garnered is priceless). I think I'll pass on this until this thread matures, you all enjoy.

[deanmass]

I have never had a man make me hard, so, it is always harder for women ( oink)

 

Stupid jokes aside, I think it is near impossible for both, but as a singer, I think it is harder for a woman unless she is a looker. I think ANY female musician who is a good player has an advantage over a man because of scarcity. I think in general, that has to do with women not suffering from the more balls than brains problem men do, and playing out only when they are ready. In all the bands I have been in, I have had only one female member, a drummer, and she was about 5 foot tall and rocked. I trade every drummer since her to get her back. She is touring with her own band now, but she had a huge double bass set and the only thing you could see was her elbows, hands and her ponytail whipping around. She was awesome.

[nat whilk II]

Such a broad question - the phrase "make it in music" could mean anything from

being a successful local piano teacher

to fronting a metal band

to running sound on the festival circuit

to composing for film

to being a mixer/composer/producer for rap acts

being the latest big media obsession and dominate the charts

to 2nd chair flute in the Baltimore symphony

to choir director for a mega-church

to singer-songwriter in the local coffeehouse scene

to playing in Letterman's band

to making electronic music for car ads

to selling songs in Nashville....etc etc etc

 

Some areas...gender issues are non-issues. Some areas, the boys are still in charge and playing the dominance games. And all points in between.

 

It ain't the 60s, that's for sure - so there has been a lot of progress. There's just no bright line available here to say "all that gender stuff is history" - just gradual changes over long periods of time...

 

That said, the major media markets do seem more exploitative of the shallow sexual appeal angle of women across the board over the last decade or so...and some dummies like Madonna tried to peddle "sexual power" as if it was an acceptable stand-in for economic or social power....what a disservice that has been to legit concerns for women's rights. But the major media markets are getting to be less important in the overall cultural landscape, and down on the ground where 99.99999% of everyone really lives, things have improved and I can only hope will continue in the same direction.

 

FWIW -

 

nat whilk ii

[LordBTY]

 

This is gonna be another BTY provocative thread, I know you like to do these but it will probably be 15 pages of arguments (which is good cause the info garnered is priceless). I think I'll pass on this until this thread matures, you all enjoy.

 

 

The BTY stands for 'better than you' if anybody wants to flame me about that.

 

That aside, I'm not convinced this is quite so provocative....

[Lee Flier]

I'm a female rock guitarist and audio engineer and have been at it a long time - over 30 years. I can only speak from my own experience. Like nat whilk said, there are all sorts of women in music, and all sorts of music and musical gigs, and many of those women have had very different experiences from mine. But I expect I fall somewhat more into the realm you're asking about than say, a woman in an orchestra or a Nashville songwriter. Yes, when I started out there were virtually no other women playing rock electric guitar with any kind of seriousness - not even in L.A. where I grew up. And there still aren't many, as you observed, relative to men. Yes, the scene is dominated by men, not only musicians but A&R, producers, managers, etc. And yes, it tends to be an extremely misogynistic scene. You certainly couldn't plead "sexual harassment" on the job as a rock musician - people would just laugh at you and you'd never get a gig again.

 

So in that sense, it's harder for women. There are still a lot of men who refuse to take women seriously and/or judge them solely on image. And you're going to get lots of unwelcome come-ons, guys who try to offer you "perks" in exchange for sexual favors and that sort of thing. For anyone who's actually just trying to do her job and take it seriously, all that stuff is a major drag, and it particularly rankles when you see women get ahead by offering up the sexual favors.

 

But... I learned to deal with it, and honestly for the most part I ran into far less of it than you'd expect. And nowadays it's really not an issue at all. For every jerk who tries to make things tougher for women, there are also guys who really enjoy working with a woman as being a rare treat. The novelty of being a female rock guitarist has probably gotten me at least as many opportunities for gigs as it has denied me. Sure, there's the occasional guy who's tripping all over himself trying to figure out how to fit this idea into his tiny little worldview, and inadvertantly saying really stupid stuff. But I've gotten pretty good at deflecting that and just laughing at it.

 

In short, my experience has been that if you're professional and mature and are serious about playing, you can get past the "boys' club" thing without too much trouble, especially nowadays. But along the way you're going to run into some morons, and have to deflect a lot of stupid remarks, and some elements of the industry (A&R, producers etc.) are always going to objectify women based on how hot they are. I guess they do that to men too - pretty much everyone in the industry prefers someone who's young and has a killer image, whether male or female - but I think it's still worse for women in that respect. From other musicians and engineers, though, I haven't had much of a problem being taken seriously.

[Temple of Light]

I'ts all about the talent and how early it's developed. Jesus {censored}in Christ look @ Adelle, 23 and a billionairess. If you got the skills the music will pay da bills...

Alot of casting couches get used in the movie business, not so much in music: much less oppurtunity to forsake {fake} your way through it.

You really have to know WTF you are doing or else...

[tooreateseepe]

Google har fram till sent på måndagskvällen som kommer framföra sina argument på a frågan av Alsup. Din domaren har tveklöst sa när viss person kommer att styra Om lag fråga, men vissa bedömare räknar objektet att se dig hända tidigare dem skador fas med rättegången inleds under cirka två veckor.

ray ban sverige

Under alla våra Samma början helg av maj 10 år tidigare, "Spider-Man" rockade Hollywood med detta $ 114.800.000 debut, dessa oerhört Första filmen någonsin när du behöver Öppna bland mer än 100 miljoner dollar när det gäller att den nya enda helg. ray ban

 Den mycket summan om Alla på dessa superhjältar visade sig vara mer än de delar. "The Avengers" redan har överträffat alla våra världen box-office totala ha "Iron Man", "Iron Man 2", "Thor" och därefter "Captain America" ​​ för de Oförkortad körs. http://www.billigtrayban.com

[Lee Knight]

I always admired women who were more preoccupied with making music than concerning themselves with how hard it is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LordBTY]

 

There are still a lot of men who refuse to take women seriously and/or judge them solely on image. And you're going to get lots of unwelcome come-ons, guys who try to offer you "perks" in exchange for sexual favors and that sort of thing. For anyone who's actually just trying to do her job and take it seriously, all that stuff is a major drag, and it particularly rankles when you see women get ahead by offering up the sexual favors.

 

 

As a young man, I find this particularly annoying. It's not just the music world either. Have just got out of a long term relationship with a girl who was rather attractive but naive (she's currently trying to make it as a model) I would often hear about various men given her interviews/job opportunities that she was not appropriate for. She didn't seem to catch on to it until the point said men stopped giving her hours at work for refusing to sleep with them. She is still getting favoritism because she's an attractive girl. She does get mistreated however, if she was ugly, I'm not convinced she'd have a job right now. I really think it was more upsetting for me than it was her.

 

Emo time over, I reckon you can get by on being a hot girl more so than a hot guy - especially when you're young. When I post things to youtube, I kinda wish it was as easy as wearing a low cut top to get my music heard - some won't take me seriously but others will. **

 

e.g.

 

2UbgcqI1sUA

 

When I saw this, I was totally infatuated with her. I'm sure the male equivalent would have an army of lusty female followers but I think more people would see through the sheer mediocrity.

 

pVo-S9ns2_A

 

Unlike this, where the guys actually being pretty clever and has a lusty female following. This guy is not even that attractive - which is saying something. He's just being utterly adorable and charming.

 

9eVu96J79TA

 

I'm subbed to her on youtube. I could lie to myself and say it's because I take her seriously... I don't think I'm gonna do that. If she did a song she would get significantly more attention but be taken less seriously by most. However, people would still listen and still take it completely seriously.

 

Final points:

 

- Objectification of performers is to be expected - male or female. Attractive women just have more to exploit.

 

- Some girls who aren't taken seriously bring it on themselves. I like Katy Perry but alota people don't take her seriously. Why? Because she has the body of a pornstar and dances around half naked in her videos. I think Nelly Furtado started aiming for erections when she realized it's alot harder (no pun intended) to make it without being a sexual object. Dido, Adele, Amy Winehouse aren't/weren't exactly sexualized but seem/seemed to do ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**Wearing a lowcut top might get me a bit more attention now that I think about it.

[hugbot]

 

Emo time over, I reckon you can get by on being a hot girl more so than a hot guy - especially when you're young. When I post things to youtube, I kinda wish it was as easy as wearing a low cut top to get my music heard - some won't take me seriously but others will. **

 

 

I reckon being a hot guy is (almost) as much a boon in music as being a hot girl. The thing is they have to be a certain kind of self-conscious "hot".

 

I'm talking like, showy, image concious, playing it up. The kind of guy whose got to be prepared to be called a poser or a "fag" by other guys.

[LordBTY]

 

I reckon being a hot guy is (almost) as much a boon in music as being a hot girl. The thing is they have to be a certain kind of self-conscious "hot". I'm talking like, showy, image concious, playing it up. The kind of guy whose got to be prepared to be called a poser or a "fag" by other guys.

 

 

Something I've noticed is that most guys wouldn't listen to such fags.

 

Depending on the level of faggotry, they'd be disregarded by a large number of gentleman and their fanbase would really only be girls. Not even gay people would listen to these fags 'cause they're too faggy. This is not true for unfaggy hot females such as Katy Perry who get both male and female attention. The fagginess just isn't there for women. It's like they don't feel threatened by hot girls on TV in the same way guys feel threatened by hot guy fags.

[A. Einstein]

She has talents and features which made it easy for her selling million of tracks:

 

 

[video=youtube;C8B8sNXpcGg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8B8sNXpcGg

[LordBTY]

 

1:10 2:27 - I can deffo see nipple. They can't put that on youtube, surely!

 

EDIT:

 

Just did some research... I'm weirdly a little more shocked by it than 'Smack My Bitch Up'

 

And

 

[Lee Flier]

 

I always admired women who were more preoccupied with making music than concerning themselves with how hard it is...

 

 

Yup, that's pretty much it - you can't really give it much energy, because nobody is going to care. It frankly didn't even occur to me that being female could really be a serious hindrance if you took care of business. In retrospect, that was a little naive, but it definitely served me better than having a chip on my shoulder or complaining about it.

[tooreateseepe]

Google har fram till sent på måndagskvällen Tid för framföra sina argument på varmed frågan så att du kan Alsup. Vår egen domaren har men inte sa när att hon kommer att styra på lag fråga, men vissa bedömare räknar spelet Du kan hända att börja med alla skador fas på rättegången inleds tvärs cirka två veckor.

ray ban glasögon

Under utan tvekan Samma verkligen Första helg relaterade till maj 10 år tidigare, "Spider-Man" rockade Hollywood med Alla $ 114.800.000 debut, Alla I början filmen någonsin Inom För att Öppna lider mer än 100 miljoner dollar av en helt ny enda helg. ray ban clubmaster

 Ofta summan tillsammans med Alla vanligast förknippas med dessa superhjältar visade sig vara mer än den viktigaste delar. "The Avengers" redan har överträffat den specifika världen box-office totala bara för "Iron Man", "Iron Man 2", "Thor" och så "Captain America" ​​ tvärs de helt ny erfarenhet körs. http://www.billigtrayban.com

[Vito Corleone]

It has always seem to me that for women in music---and in many other fields of endeavor or business with a highly mysogynistic culture---that being a woman makes it's easier for certain doors to open but those door all lead to the proverbial glass ceiling. The most successful women are the ones who know how to navigate this: they use what they need to use to their advantage when it helps then and know when and how to abandon it. These are women who often use their short skirts to get them the job and then crush the men with their heels on the way to the top.

 

It would be nice if none of that existed and women could all be judged purely on their talent/skills alone, but the truth is that doesn't exist for men either. Tall, good looking men with charming personalities go much further in the business world and everywhere else than do men without those attributes. And even more so, of course, in the entertainment world.

[A. Einstein]

 

It has always seem to me that for women in music---and in many other fields of endeavor or business with a highly mysogynistic culture---that being a woman makes it's easier for certain doors to open but those door all lead to the proverbial glass ceiling. The most successful women are the ones who know how to navigate this: they use what they need to use to their advantage when it helps then and know when and how to abandon it. These are women who often use their short skirts to get them the job and then crush the men with their heels on the way to the top. It would be nice if none of that existed and women could all be judged purely on their talent/skills alone , but the truth is that doesn't exist for men either. Tall, good looking men with charming personalities go much further in the business world and everywhere else than do men without those attributes. And even more so, of course, in the entertainment world.

 

 

 

When I meditate for 3? seconds over the text of Guido above, then in order to achieve his proposed goal I come to the conclusion, that all men in the music industry, as well all men in the audience, must be chemical castrated.

[philbo]

It depends on whether the music sucks and how much marketing money is being thrown about, for both men & women. I had a recent experience trying to get a gig at a wine bar where the dude told me he couldn't hire me because I am not a young female, so the gender thing is a double-bladed axe (no pun intended).

[philbo]

 

Yup, that's pretty much it - you can't really give it much energy, because nobody is going to care. It frankly didn't even occur to me that being female could really be a serious hindrance if you took care of business. In retrospect, that was a little naive, but it definitely served me better than having a chip on my shoulder or complaining about it.

 

 

Absolutely! Attitude and diligence counts for more than anything else.

[electrochrisso]

It depends on whether the music sucks and how much marketing money is being thrown about, for both men & women. I had a recent experience trying to get a gig at a wine bar where the dude told me he couldn't hire me because I am not a young female, so the gender thing is a double-bladed axe (no pun intended).

 

Hey philbo you should have sued him for discrimination, if you got the good lawyer you could be worth a fortune.

[Vito Corleone]

Hey philbo you should have sued him for discrimination, if you got the good lawyer you could be worth a fortune.

 

A couple of years back a guy (in NYC, I believe) tried to sue a nightclub for discrimination that had "ladies night" drink prices. He lost.